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Emmcee

2016 Ferrari

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Sig. Luca Cordero di Montezemolo on Ferrari.

Irreplaceable, and missed! It was easy prediction and true on the day it happened, and he has left Maranello, just as it is true today.

The man personified Ferrari upper class society, and in really aristocratic manner added aura to that car, which an accountant/bookkeeper never can achieve, regardless how many pieces of papers he has framed and hanged for display on his wall. Driven by passion and understanding, versus driven by money and hunger for quick glory is really glaring difference.

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Never liked montezemelo, got this feeling especially when schumi was there that he would stab you in the back. There was a few times where he stated schumi was replaceable even after 5 straight titles, he said the same thing and I lost a lot of respect for him over that. Where talking about the greatest driver ever to have driven a red car, no one on the planet could come near schumi at that time just on skill alone. To say kimi was also the future at Ferrari was just disrespectful and then come out and say schumi could've kept on driving like wtf? No disrespect to kimi but at that time he was no where near schumi.

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14 hours ago, Sakae said:

Sig. Luca Cordero di Montezemolo on Ferrari.

Irreplaceable, and missed! It was easy prediction and true on the day it happened, and he has left Maranello, just as it is true today.

The man personified Ferrari upper class society, and in really aristocratic manner added aura to that car, which an accountant/bookkeeper never can achieve, regardless how many pieces of papers he has framed and hanged for display on his wall. Driven by passion and understanding, versus driven by money and hunger for quick glory is really glaring difference.

I miss him alot too Sakae. I've been saying it all year but Marchionne The Fraud will ruin Ferrari for a considerable period of time. Blaming Vettel, OMG I cannot even begin to get my head around that one, when just this last race in Austin we saw how pathetic the team were wtih Kimi's race lays it out for all to see. Not a single mechanic ran down the pit lane to assist him.

Luca may have been a little over the top at times, but one thing you never thought or did was question his passion. Marchionne has no passion at all accept for profit/loss statements. Demanding instant results shows how incompetant he really is. And whose going to stop him from making things even worse?

If things are no different in 2017, then Vettel will leave. There's no chance of getting Newey/Horner/Brawn in there whilst The Fraud is in charge. Remove him, and maybe then Ferrari have a chance.

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7 hours ago, KoolMonkey said:

I miss him alot too Sakae. I've been saying it all year but Marchionne The Fraud will ruin Ferrari for a considerable period of time. Blaming Vettel, OMG I cannot even begin to get my head around that one, when just this last race in Austin we saw how pathetic the team were wtih Kimi's race lays it out for all to see. Not a single mechanic ran down the pit lane to assist him.

Luca may have been a little over the top at times, but one thing you never thought or did was question his passion. Marchionne has no passion at all accept for profit/loss statements. Demanding instant results shows how incompetant he really is. And whose going to stop him from making things even worse?

If things are no different in 2017, then Vettel will leave. There's no chance of getting Newey/Horner/Brawn in there whilst The Fraud is in charge. Remove him, and maybe then Ferrari have a chance.

We are at the end of introductory period of hybrid PU(s), but while I do agree with opinions that SM is hard to take, we should not disregard destructive impact of cost down regulations. Ferrari, from all teams, has been in very unique position, building their power plant, chassis, etc. as parallel projects. They had one of the most difficult situations from them all in Tier 1 group. Their initial design was simply not competitive with Mercedes, focus for lack of resources at Maranello (lately corrected) was fragmented and inadequate, and now we are harvesting results.  Mercedes in contrast, had been working on 2014 job far longer, while their car stunk on the track in previous years. Cause & Effect. Each team has their own issues, but IMHO regulations aren't really helping, and making the team seen much worse than it has been, just as I think the glaring strategical mistakes are nothing more but results of risky calls for cars which aren't up to it. But, at least they are trying.

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It's hard to feel sorry for Ferrari in the development sense as they have more resources available to them than any other team. Not to mention there able to test when ever they want as long as the car there using (if it's a f1 car) has to be at least 2 years old as they have there own test track. It's all these "big wigs" behind the scenes who want to make there presence felt. Gone way past the real reason,intention and purpose of why Ferrari is in formula one to begin with. What I find funny is all these people who bagged alonso and said he got fired from Ferrari and blah blah blah has statically done better than Vettel and raikkonen combined in his first two years at Ferrari. And that's when more than one team was able to win Grand Prix. People didn't realise that did they? There development seemed more steady and competitive than the up and down car we have this season.

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Just first two sentences actually contain numerous errors, but don't facts bother you. Ferrari budget was increased only recently and about 2 years later than Mercedes had their increase, and it is Mercedes, which has largest budget and 1400 employees + technical assistance from Stuttgart (tire effects would be one of those). And no, they cannot test anytime anything more than regulations permit them to do so. There is no track testing, and most work is done on simulators, as hours in wind tunnel are restricted. Most of the work these days is done on computers. Regarding the other statistics you are citing, you are comparing apples and oranges, but whatever. Based on past experience I have on this forum, there is no point to reason that your even most rudimentary statistical analysis contains flaws.

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I've come to know f1 now that facts mean jack when it comes to talking about the day to day running a of a team. There would be that much dodgy, backdoor stuff going on that only certain stories make it out other wise the sport would consistently be kept in disrepute. To sit here and honestly believe Ferrari wouldn't be testing when ever they wanted, when photos came out of them running an f1 engine in one of there road cars around fiorano is just crazy. None of these teams play by the rules when behind close doors. How did I know you would stand up for them, can't say anything negative about Seb or Ferrari no matter how true it may seem as it's automatically incorrect. Ferrari would be one of the dodgiest teams out there, mafia would have there hands in the pie for sure.

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There is pressure on FiA in the paddock to exclude Vettel from racing as part of punishment for his radio comments, and media do suggest, that matter has not been concluded with Seb apologizing to Whiting after the race. While this is going on, there was not even an enquiry over Hamilton's excursion and keeping his position. We get this confirmation over and over, that F1 is a world of controversy, and nothing can be taken for granted. Charges might included allegedly bringing sport in disrepute, which is especially perplexing, since we have people in the top committing such offenses whole year around and without problem.

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4 hours ago, Sakae said:

There is pressure on FiA in the paddock to exclude Vettel from racing as part of punishment for his radio comments, and media do suggest, that matter has not been concluded with Seb apologizing to Whiting after the race. While this is going on, there was not even an enquiry over Hamilton's excursion and keeping his position. We get this confirmation over and over, that F1 is a world of controversy, and nothing can be taken for granted. Charges might included allegedly bringing sport in disrepute, which is especially perplexing, since we have people in the top committing such offenses whole year around and without problem.

I'm quite saddened by the whole Mexican affair. Hamilton get's zero punishment. Max gets one after the race, but by then it was a farce. He should not have been in a position to affect Vettel or Ricci's race like that. RBR told him to cede the position over the radio. Then after the race said they told him to stay ahead.

Whiting is a disgrace. I don't condone Vettel's frustration and anger at the situation, but I have to understand the reason why he felt that way. I've repeated this for years, Whiting must go. He is not fit for the role he occupies.

There are so many instances of inconsistencies. Nico & Vettel have been penalized many times. Yet when Max brake checked Kimi in Spa, nothing. It was incredibly dangerous and he did it on purpose and not a peep from Whiting. Max again hits Nico on the opening corner. Nothing. He totally f*cks up his braking and goes through the grass. Nothing until after the race. Vettel had a tangle with Ricci. Considering what I've seen all year long, I'm dumbfounded how that ended up being a penalty as it was more than tame compared to many other "racing incidents" this year.

F1 is totally f*cked. If the rumours are true Brawn is being groomed to come in as the new head of F1, then fantastic. I hope he machete's the sh*t out of things.

 

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13 minutes ago, KoolMonkey said:

I'm quite saddened by the whole Mexican affair. Hamilton get's zero punishment. Max gets one after the race, but by then it was a farce. He should not have been in a position to affect Vettel or Ricci's race like that. RBR told him to cede the position over the radio. Then after the race said they told him to stay ahead.

Whiting is a disgrace. I don't condone Vettel's frustration and anger at the situation, but I have to understand the reason why he felt that way. I've repeated this for years, Whiting must go. He is not fit for the role he occupies.

There are so many instances of inconsistencies. Nico & Vettel have been penalized many times. Yet when Max brake checked Kimi in Spa, nothing. It was incredibly dangerous and he did it on purpose and not a peep from Whiting. Max again hits Nico on the opening corner. Nothing. He totally f*cks up his braking and goes through the grass. Nothing until after the race. Vettel had a tangle with Ricci. Considering what I've seen all year long, I'm dumbfounded how that ended up being a penalty as it was more than tame compared to many other "racing incidents" this year.

F1 is totally f*cked. If the rumours are true Brawn is being groomed to come in as the new head of F1, then fantastic. I hope he machete's the sh*t out of things.

 

From what I read I gather that pit-wall instructed Verstappen to cede the position (which itself is actually awareness of and admission of wrongdoing of their driver), yet Verstappen responded with request for confirmation (as he didn't know by himself right from wrong), and at that point pit-wall changed their mind and asked him to hold his position because it will be "investigated" after race. What a charade that is, and IMO that's the race ignition point when situation escalated and blew up at Vettel's c#ckpit, when he realized what game is played with him. RBR and Race Control should be answering some questions now, if there was any justice.

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See this is the technical bit, what Verstappen did at the time was legal and well within the rules. We all know though that common sense, you don't move under braking because its dangerous for starters and just a tad dirty to. But now with the Verstappen rule it's now illegal to move while braking and that's what Vettel did and he was the first to complain about it in the past. Not only did he push dan almost of the road, he still tried to keep turning across dan on the exit of the corner.

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Oh please, going off track and benefitting of it is legal? Since when? RBR knew it, which is why they asked him to return the position to Vettel. Only when they realized how that could benefit to DC, they steer the pot. Vettel got shafted by very dirty game on several sides, not just one, a reason why he lost it, and got pretty mad.

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Your missing the point, Iam not talking about now, verstappen deserved the penalty, Iam talking about previous Grand Prix where he weaved under braking, Vettel ruined Daniels race from then on out S he tyres were gone from the massive lockup from trying not to gaggle with Vettel, when do you rekon you will say Vettel made a mistake?

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Vettel will escape FiA sanctions.

1. He has applogized to CW (2x actually, in person, and in writing) and also to JT.

2. He will apologize also to Verstappen.

And is anyone asking what's wrong with current F1? Before you answer, see replay of Verstappen going off towards race end, gaining advantage (while FiA is quiet) over Vettel, blocking and backing up Vettel to make him target for the teammate, using really bad language towards him after race, and now it is Vettel who is apologizing. I am sorry, but I need to find some Aspirin, because my head is exploding.

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7 hours ago, Sakae said:

Here is saint Ricciardo for you. Finger and the word c****t appears to slip by.   (Attack was on Kimi).

But that's nothing like calling Alonso idiot because he had run Vettel in FP. That's F1 of today for you.

What six months later people have an issue with this? It's Monaco, I've seen Seb do it, but dan doesn't come screaming over the radio and then have body language that lets of an arrogant vibe towards reporters. Sebs self entitlement is what makes people dislike him. Screaming for blue flags, screaming for cars to move out his way and then swears on the radio and nearly pushes another car of the road.

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Cutting corners, by both, Hamilton early, Verstappen later in the same race was wrong and against the rules, which is why Verstappen was first advised to concede his position by his pit-wall, then the order was retracted. RBR knew it was wrong, FiA knew it was wrong, Vettel knew it was wrong, all but some fans knew it was wrong.

RBR should be answering some questions to FiA about their retraction, just as Race Control should face some internal enquiry about their benevolence for letting these kind of infractions go unattended. Vettel's alleged  sense of entitlement was for Verstappen to play by the book. Was that too much to ask? Play by the same book which stripped him of the podium. Point of this is, had FiA/RBR acted properly, and Vertsappen slotted behind Vettel as Vettel expected, result of the race had potential to end up differently, and we can speculate about it. The case with Hamilton meanwhile is in your face, screaming very loud! BBC "experts" weren't clear why Hamilton was let off the hook, and had to visit "Charlie" for explanation. (Which was - he lifted). Yeah, right, that makes all OK then, especially when Hamilton was in greater gap of Rosberg after this.

It was a race in which, I think, both, Rosberg and Vettel got shafted by the authorities.

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Good post and I agree majority, Hamilton didn't lift of, no way. There is no way he would've had that much gap coming out of the chicane if he didn't cut it, he deserved and penalty and so did Verstappen. Vettel also deserved his penalty for the simply fact he moved under braking and was squeezing dan of the road, that's how I see it as dan would've been able to pass both Verstappen and Vettel IMO.

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What is IMO sad about this race, that the fine art of racing skills got trampled upon. It is a case in which both opponents - Verstappen, Hamilton - were defeated by skills, rather than massive differential power of the equipment. Either of those two drivers could not hold off a car on the attack, which is why they went over the limit in their defenses, leaving tarmac, and for all practical purposes they lost right to hold their respective race positions. This is essence and at the core of art of racing at highest levels, which we so dearly missed, because we do not see it anymore so often.

If FiA, and maybe also FOM a little*, had not realized what they have done by neutralizing results, then I am not sure what is the show about. Do we need another repeat of 2014 and have Mercedes with massive and unprecedented equipment advantage over everyone to prove Hamilton's "skills" over the rest of the grid?

*FOM of course could not interfere with the race, however, I think, FOM, in defense of racing spirit, could and should have officially sent fax or letter to FiA president, and ask for internal review of appropriateness of decisions Race Control taken in the last race.

Instead, we have ended up examining Vettel's foul mood. Nice going.

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2 hours ago, Emmcee said:

Good post and I agree majority, Hamilton didn't lift of, no way. There is no way he would've had that much gap coming out of the chicane if he didn't cut it, he deserved and penalty and so did Verstappen. Vettel also deserved his penalty for the simply fact he moved under braking and was squeezing dan of the road, that's how I see it as dan would've been able to pass both Verstappen and Vettel IMO.

You are expecting too much from a punk in Hamilton. He isn't that nice :lol:

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Yeah but I don't think he is as dirty a driver as Verstappen or Vettel.

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Ferrari lost "Mexico" appeal. (Well, that's a big "surprise"). BTW, we are the judge, jury, and executioner - all in one, who are evaluating your claim.

Quote

It hinged on new track camera angles and GPS on Max Verstappen’s cutting of the chicane and the fact that Red Bull should have been instructed to order Verstappen to give the place back. The Stewards decided that there was no new evidence and that the result should stand.

I read portions of the FiA generated document (after the hearing), and this caught my eye:

Quote

In relation to the matter of the Race Director having the “power” to instruct the driver of Car 33 (Verstappen) to give back the alleged advantage, we note firstly that the relevant article gives the Race Director “absolute authority” to allow the driver to give back a position. It does not imply an obligation to do so.

 Only at FiA we can read something like that. Irrelevant as it may be at first to the core argument on the table, Ferrari, in a person of Jock Clear, argued that above incident actually triggered what has followed. FiA of course said - never mind that. You, Ferrari, only alleging that Verstappen gained by cutting corners.

Alleging, really?

That's what we have to read two weeks after race, boys and girls, and after we penalized Verstapped, late but nevertheless we did, thus confirming that we de facto agree with you on that, but you see, RD has no obligation to act as an RD, if it doesn't suits him. That's just great, isn't it? Was there hesitation after the race about MV's guilt? No, it was one of the fastest decisions rendered literally in seconds after the race.

The arguments regarding Vettel's defense of his race position will remain a subject of differing opinions. Ferrari has right to submit a second appeal, however I doubt that they will. Regarding FiA, if I had any shred of respect left in me for that organization, after reading their self-serving gibberish, all respect is gone for some unexplainable reason, as supposedly respected regulatory authority turned into a circus handlers cracking whip to the mood of a moment, and them being serious about right and wrong was pushed on the side in favor of pleasing crowds.

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Sakae, I'll post it again as some here obviously want to ignore all facts.

charlie said drivers were in agreement of this new "Verstappen rule" and Mexico was the first place it was implemented and for the penalty to stick or occur, 3 things had to be satisfied as stated by Charlie.

1- data submitted to the FIA from Ferrari at there request showed Vettel did Infact move under braking so rule one was met.

2- the FIA felt that Ricciardo was put in a dangerous position, which satisfied rule number two

3- that Ricciardo had to take evasive action to avoid contact which the FIA agreed did Infact happen therefore rule number 3 was satisfied as well, so all three conditions that drivers agreed on were met therefore Vettel was penalised, how much more fairer can you get? It's not like he broke ONE rule to be penalised, he broke three that was needed to be met for the "Verstappen rule" to be broken, I don't know how much more there is to it. All I know is if it wasn't Vettel and it was someone else, you wouldn't be so defensive, this is the biased attitude Iam talking about. It's over now and he got what he deserved, vettels excuses saying it was because dan was on the dirty side and all this bs is an insult to the intelligence of f1 fans and that's how I feel about it, if what Vettel said was true about the dirty side then EVERY single car on the dirty side would've locked up and Iam sure the commentary would've picked up on that or we would've heard someone whinge about it (Vettel most likely), take it how you want but I don't expect a reply to this as it seems only certain posts get replied to let alone read no matter the proof or how logical it is, but that's the norm around here now isn't it? Vettel should've been smarter and not agreed to this if he felt he might find himself in this position, just makes him look like an idiot not to mention a sore loser. And to top it of its also fine to speak the way he did? Come on man, where's the common sense? Or should've this rule only come into affect if it was someone else but Vettel? Got to start at some point or don't have the rule at all. Vettel pulled the move, well and truly knowing he broke the three rules, he can't be that stupid can he? As it would've been clarified a dozen times before it was implemented or does he think he is above the power of the sport? His radio comments suggest this. Doesn't matter if he left dan room or not, fact is he moved under braking and him being as vocal as he has been in the past over that exact move is a tad hipercritical don't you think? And no it's not an attack on Vettel and no Ferrari doesn't take my blood boil, just clearly up any assumptions you may have, Iam just telling it how I saw it and the steward panel with experienced race driver Danny Sullivan. But all these people are wrong according to Vettel and Ferrari.

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28 minutes ago, Emmcee said:

Sakae, I'll post it again as some here obviously want to ignore all facts.

charlie said drivers were in agreement of this new "Verstappen rule" and Mexico was the first place it was implemented and for the penalty to stick or occur, 3 things had to be satisfied as stated by Charlie.

1- data submitted to the FIA from Ferrari at there request showed Vettel did Infact move under braking so rule one was met.

2- the FIA felt that Ricciardo was put in a dangerous position, which satisfied rule number two

3- that Ricciardo had to take evasive action to avoid contact which the FIA agreed did Infact happen therefore rule number 3 was satisfied as well, so all three conditions that drivers agreed on were met therefore Vettel was penalised, how much more fairer can you get? It's not like he broke ONE rule to be penalised, he broke three that was needed to be met for the "Verstappen rule" to be broken, I don't know how much more there is to it. All I know is if it wasn't Vettel and it was someone else, you wouldn't be so defensive, this is the biased attitude Iam talking about. It's over now and he got what he deserved, vettels excuses saying it was because dan was on the dirty side and all this bs is an insult to the intelligence of f1 fans and that's how I feel about it, if what Vettel said was true about the dirty side then EVERY single car on the dirty side would've locked up and Iam sure the commentary would've picked up on that or we would've heard someone whinge about it (Vettel most likely), take it how you want but I don't expect a reply to this as it seems only certain posts get replied to let alone read no matter the proof or how logical it is, but that's the norm around here now isn't it? Vettel should've been smarter and not agreed to this if he felt he might find himself in this position, just makes him look like an idiot not to mention a sore loser. And to top it of its also fine to speak the way he did? Come on man, where's the common sense? Or should've this rule only come into affect if it was someone else but Vettel? Got to start at some point or don't have the rule at all. Vettel pulled the move, well and truly knowing he broke the three rules, he can't be that stupid can he? As it would've been clarified a dozen times before it was implemented or does he think he is above the power of the sport? His radio comments suggest this. Doesn't matter if he left dan room or not, fact is he moved under braking and him being as vocal as he has been in the past over that exact move is a tad hipercritical don't you think? And no it's not an attack on Vettel and no Ferrari doesn't take my blood boil, just clearly up any assumptions you may have, Iam just telling it how I saw it and the steward panel with experienced race driver Danny Sullivan. But all these people are wrong according to Vettel and Ferrari.

I consider Horner's comment highly disgenious, that the gap to Vettel was THE SAME, once Verstappen returned onto track, thus all is OK. Well not excatly, Mr. Horner. Verstappen cut corner, and we were deprived to see him fight with faster Ferrari on the track. Vettel had good chance emerging ahead of him out of turns, because RB was badly off the racing line, and FiA let him to carry on without any regard how damaging that was to Vettel.  I am really not interested in anything else. 

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