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Emmcee

2016 Mercedes

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15 minutes ago, Emmcee said:

Hang on I always have to correct people here when referring Schumacher and Villeneuve. Let's look at that with common sense, it was for a world title and not just any normal race win, what did you honestly expect schumi to do? Turn out of the corner and give the faster Villeneuve the position? No way in hell, if you damage your car defending your position for a world title I think it needs to be looked at in that sense and realise Villeneuve would've done the same thing, in fact he was the one who chopped across infront of schumi in Suzuka that year but that never gets a mention. I'll defend schumi for Jerez 97 and Adelaide 94. Adelaide 94 hill was at fault IMO, if he didn't think schumi wouldn't close the door in a race like that for what's at stake and having to go half of the circuit to even attempt the move on schumi, hill 100% at fault IMO. Schumi did push boundaries but not any further than senna who get praised for his aggressive style.

 

15 hours ago, Sakae said:
The Mercedes driver pairing is a liability to German money.
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

We are discussing yesterdays race as a main point. Check the video, take notice sudden change of direction by Hamilton, and tell me if he had to do that. I cannot help it, but it looks very deliberate act by Hamilton. Hamilton had still some space on his left, and then there is solution having two wheels off the track, before there is contact.

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4 hours ago, Massa said:

So, Publius uses a static view to make his point, and there's no objection.  I use static views, and that's apparently misleading.  Got it. :lol:

I've seen the video.  Live and in multiple replays.  I see the same thing I see in the images: Hamilton taking a normal high line and Rosberg completely missing the corner.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.  We saw different things.  At the end of the day, no one got penalized, because Rosberg kept fourth and will never amass enough penalty points that his two will be material.  So, whoever was at fault got away freely.

that is the point, Hamilton taking the usual racing line an Rosberg not taking the usual racing line, that's key as Rosberg had plenty of reasons to go a bit long, either because his brakes were fading away (and that was most likely because his rear tyres were completely shot, as no one could do 11 laps pushing hard with USs) or simply because he was defending his position. Defending your position is totally acceptable, I blame Rosberg for telling a lie not for his driving, he took the corner only wider, he left enough room for Hamilton, I'm aware of no rule that says that if you go wide you get punished

I would personally claim that what Rosberg did on the exit of the corner was worse as he didn't leave Hamilton any room, but when they made contact I see no problem whatsoever

Besides my pic was taken just before they made contact, Rosberg is going right because he was taking the turn, not because Hamilton rammed into him, Hamilton aimed at Nico only after Nico had started turning in

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9 hours ago, Massa said:

My guess is that his car, with front wheels still nearly straight, is pointing right because he has just collided with an object (Hamilton's car) that is now pushing him rightward.

You can either lament Rosberg getting the softer tires or Rosberg getting later pit stop, but not both, as they explain each other.  If you put Rosberg on softer tires, presumably you pit him later so that he doesn't have to do as many laps on the tires that will wear.  And Hamilton came on the radio, upset that Rosberg had the faster tires, so if Hamilton got to call his own strategy, he'd have been on the same ones on Rosberg.

My guesses, and admittedly, only guesses, as to why Mercedes used the strategy it did:

(1) Hamilton was faster than Rosberg, in part because Hamilton had fresher tires before the final pit stop, but Rosberg did have some aerodynamic damage already.

(2) Rosberg, technically, only inherited the lead of Hamilton's race due to safety car timing.

(3) Verstappen wasn't going to pit again and was close enough to jump both Mercedes after they pitted.  They wanted to make sure Verstappen wouldn't win, so they split the strategies.  Hamilton got the one he got because he was in the best position to make it work (healthier car, faster).

(4) Rosberg, then the leader, gets the most deference on blue flags.  But drivers slowly stop listening to blue flags the further down the order you get.  So, Hamilton would've been impeded more by lapped traffic than Rosberg, meaning it made more sense to move him out of it sooner to, again, avoid Verstappen breaking the 1-2 finish.

I don't think it is fair to say either driver gets preferential treatment at Mercedes.  Both have had the better strategy.  Both have had the worse.  Both have jumped the other at times in the other's race to win.  And both have done bad things, things detrimental to the team, things that border on poor sportsmanship, with each other.

As for the move, I have watched it over and over, and I keep seeing the same thing: Rosberg intentionally hits Hamilton.

Here, I have uploaded screenshots of the wreck, with my captions, explaining what I see: http://imgur.com/a/7gXzR

regding Rosberg's tyre choice I think that it's fait to say that both the tyre choice and the timing was dubious since (i) he was ahead with tyres 11 laps older than Hamilton yet they pitted Hamilton, who was chasing, first and then Rosberg, that in my book is called undercutting (a competitor) and (ii) the tyre choice for Rosberg was wrong because there is no way that he could have done 11 laps with those tyres in full working order (and they knew that.. that is the real issue here) and in effect Nico's tyres didn't last, you just have to see how slow Rosberg is out of turn 1 on the last lap, that was because his tyres were long gone. Besides, we have been told time and again how fantastic the soft tyres were, why give them anything else? Had Rosberg pitted 5 laps before the end of the race I could understabd the USs, but not with 11 laps to go. 

And I couldn't care less what Hamilton said on the radio, he always complaines about something or somebody, that's Lewis, he felt the need to vent his frustration because the undercut didn't work but in reality the team gave him a much better tyre choice than they gave Nico, only Nico cannot go public and tell this 

The sad reality is that once again we see the battle for the WDC tempered with by team politics

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3 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

that is the point, Hamilton taking the usual racing line an Rosberg not taking the usual racing line, that's key as Rosberg had plenty of reasons to go a bit long, either because his brakes were fading away (and that was most likely because his rear tyres were completely shot, as no one could do 11 laps pushing hard with USs) or simply because he was defending his position. Defending your position is totally acceptable, I blame Rosberg for telling a lie not for his driving, he took the corner only wider, he left enough room for Hamilton, I'm aware of no rule that says that if you go wide you get punished

I would personally claim that what Rosberg did on the exit of the corner was worse as he didn't leave Hamilton any room, but when they made contact I see no problem whatsoever

Besides my pic was taken just before they made contact, Rosberg is going right because he was taking the turn, not because Hamilton rammed into him, Hamilton aimed at Nico only after Nico had started turning in

This is how I see it as well. Strangely enough, while yesterday Wolff issued an explanation about tires and problem with brakes, mind you, Rosberg other than consequently going wide into the turn, hasn't really committed any other issue which would deserve so much noise on the internet. 

This morning we read that Wolff called both drivers as "brainless". It is mystery what he was actually expecting of Rosberg to do differently under circumstances he himself described earlier on.

FiA declared, in their infinite wisdom, that Rosberg didn't leave enough room for Hamilton, something I would question as objectively accurate. From what I saw, Hamilton had an ample space on his left, including opting to put two wheels off the track in lieu of ramming into Rosberg. What's getting to me, how people can view the same images, and interpret their meaning with diametrically opposing views. I see Hamilton who swung against Rosberg car, others see Rosberg ramming Hamilton, despite car motions, vehicle trajectories, or space around them. Human mind and eyesight seems very fickle. Can anyone imgaine whether we would obtain the same reasoning from FiA, fans, and Wolf, had those two drivers switched seats in the same incident? Austrian fans got it right, even if I am not really in favor of booing people, regardless of reasons.

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Another big problem with Merc is that useless Toto Wolf. Of all the Wolf in the world, this one is a pVssy !!

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9 minutes ago, radical-one said:

Another big problem with Merc is that useless Toto Wolf. Of all the Wolf in the world, this one is a pVssy !!

I would lay only one issue to Wolff's doorstep, namely, that he is refusing to hold Hamilton on a short leash. Mercedes without Hamilton, not Wolff, mind you, would be a better place, IMO. It is not mere coincidence that he is not driving neither for RBR or Ferrari. Lauda made a mistake taking him on board.

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1 minute ago, Sakae said:

I would lay only one issue to Wolff's doorstep, namely, that he is refusing to hold Hamilton on a short leash. Mercedes without Hamilton, not Wolff, mind you, would be a better place, IMO. It is not mere coincidence that he is not driving neither for RBR or Ferrari. Lauda made a mistake with taking him on board.

I can agree on Hamilton. But the fact remains that he is there and Toto Pvssy's job is to keep that p@nk under control. It's his job.

Lauda on the other hand loves Lewis. He hugs his nutts !

 

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2 hours ago, Sakae said:

 

FiA declared, in their infinite wisdom, that Rosberg didn't leave enough room for Hamilton, something I would question as objectively accurate.

Maybe they refer to the fact that AFTER the corner Rosberg didn't leave any room to Hamilton, that is correct, but I fear that instead they are referring to what happened BEFORE the corner, when Hamilton barged into Rosberg. They had to come up with  silly excuse and this is it... :rolleyes: 

Apart from what we have already discussed, I think that this accident shows what kind of person Hamilton is, he didn't need to barge into Rosberg, he could have overtaken him either by braking and going on the inside (Rosberg had no traction and anyway he was going to turn later and so Rosberg had no choice whatsoever of defending from such a manouvre by Hamilton) or quite simply take the run off area and outdragg Rosberg. I would just like to point out the fact that in the past something like this happened so often in that corner, ie. a driver defending and the other going wide and taking to the much faster run off area before rejoining the track) that they had to start punishing drivers who faked being pushed wide because taking the run off area was such a massive advantage... there have always been problems at that corner, even when the track was called Zeltweg and junior formulae happened to be racing there :lol: seriously, had Hamilton kept his cool Rosberg would have been toast anyway in that corner, it was completely unnecessary to drive into him

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has anyone checked that when Hamilton passed Rosberg there was no waved yellow in that area? becaused when I saw them coming out of turn 1 two things srung to my mind: (i) Rosberg is toast because his tyres have long gone off the cliff and (ii) what about those yellow flags?

Also, what about turn 1 in Canada? B)

 

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Should we start keeping Hamilton account of achievements?

July 2014 — Hamilton ignores team orders to let Rosberg pass at the Hungarian GP. (No problem for Mr. Wolff).

August 2014 — Hamilton alleges Rosberg deliberately crashed into him at the Belgian GP. (Big problem for Mr. Wolff, bad Rosberg).

October 2015 — Hamilton forces pole-sitter Rosberg off the track at the U.S. race as he goes on to win the world title. (No problem for Mr. Wolff, Brits are applauding).

May 2016 — The two collide at the Spanish GP as Hamilton tries to overtake Rosberg shortly after the start. (Bad Rosberg, says Mr. Wolff).

June 2016 — Hamilton forces Rosberg off the track at the Canadian GP as they seek to catch Sebastian Vettel at the first turn, later wins the race, while Rosberg drops to fifth. (Bad Rosberg, says Mr. Wolff).

July 2016 - Hamilton rammed into Rosberg at Spielberg (Bad Rosberg, says Mr. Wolff).

 

 

Next show - just a few days away, Ladies and Gentlemen.

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2 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

has anyone checked that when Hamilton passed Rosberg there was no waved yellow in that area? becaused when I saw them coming out of turn 1 two things srung to my mind: (i) Rosberg is toast because his tyres have long gone off the cliff and (ii) what about those yellow flags?

Also, what about turn 1 in Canada? B)

 

Yellow flags - I must have miss those, and they aren't on radar of anyone, as long as crucifixion of Rosberg continues. ferrari is under impression that yellow flags issued because of Perez actually prevented Kimi to stand higher up on the podium. 

Back to Hamilton - are we suppose to believe, that Hamilton has peripheral problems and he wasn't aware that Rosberg is still substantially alongside of him, when he changed suddenly direction? There are so many things wrong with that incident, that it is becoming a good texbook case for study of bad behaviour.

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At the end of the day, rosberg had the inside, had track position and gave Lewis the required space, what more could've he done? Yeah he ran wide and effectively pushed Lewis of but if he had a fair dinkum brake issue then why has he been punished? You can tell Mercedes still want Lewis to win or they would've told him to stay behind nico simple as that IMO. Also what a ripper drive by grosjean and wehrlein.

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Quote

Nico Rosberg has been assured his ongoing contract negotiations with Formula One champions Mercedes will not be affected by the collision with teammate Lewis Hamilton on the final lap of the Austrian Grand Prix.

Meanwhile

Quote

Horner predicts it won't be the last time it happens this season. "Longer term, how tenable is it for that pairing to continue as a team?" he is quoted as saying by Autosport.

 

So, what is it? Everybody is getting on Rosberg¨s act, and neither Lauda or Wolff are his friends, never-mind mentors.

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Just a reminder that Nico Rosberg intentionally hit Lewis Hamilton in the 2014 Belgian Grand Prix to cut Hamilton's tire, and endured weeks of booing on the podium afterward.  Mercedes took the view Rosberg did it intentionally; Rosberg admitted being at fault, but stopped short of confessing.  You can go back into the archives of this forum (well, maybe now you can't :lol:) and see a lot of people here calling for Rosberg to be banned for a race.

I find it funny we compile lists of Hamilton's wrongs, but act like Rosberg has caused no issues in his time at Mercedes.  Even before yesterday, both drivers have been poor sports, defiant, displayed bad attitudes (neither one loses with a lot of grace), and done unnecessary things that have cost the team points.

Mercedes let their team get out of control in 2014, and never regained it (or maybe 2013—in the Malaysian GP, the second race of this teammate pairing, Rosberg refused to obey team orders from Ross Brawn to let Hamilton through—oh, wait, Rosberg has never done any wrong, my apologies, that can't be true).  It's no wonder they resist regulation changes—these clowns on equal footing with anyone else would surely drop down the grid.  It'd be a bit like 2007, perhaps, if anyone were closer.  Alonso could have been champion if he had not sat in the pits to impede Hamilton in Hungarian Grand Prix qualifying, for example.  Alonso received a five-place grid drop on a track where passing is quite difficult.  He finished fourth.  Without the penalty, Alonso would have started either first or second (he qualified first, but had Hamilton gotten a proper run in Q3, Hamilton may have beaten him).  I doubt Alonso, in the 2007 McLaren, drops back to fourth from the front row.  And Alonso lost the title by one point, so you can really see the cost there.  That's just one example, too, of things that happened that year in that team.

The point is that you can run your team like buffoons when the rules don't let anyone catch you.  But Mercedes will be miserable if Red Bull, Ferrari, or anyone else get on their heels.  The tighter the margin, the harder it is to allow points-tossing, and both drivers in this lineup will always do that.

As for one comment here asking how we'd see it if the drivers were reversed, I'd see it as Hamilton's fault if he did what Rosberg did.  I am not a fan of any driver (my username, Massa, was just a gag when I started this account, pairing the username with an avatar of Nelson Piquet, Jr.'s headshot.  It amused a whopping one person) on this grid, and haven't been since the demise of Scott Speed.  Certainly, some results would make me smile more than others, just because they're good stories, but I don't own some driver's hat or wear some driver's shirt or cheer from the couch when I watch on TV.

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1 hour ago, Massa said:

Just a reminder that Nico Rosberg intentionally hit Lewis Hamilton in the 2014 Belgian Grand Prix to cut Hamilton's tire, and endured weeks of booing on the podium afterward.  Mercedes took the view Rosberg did it intentionally

no one else at the time took the same view of that accident, it was deemed as a racing accident, pure and simple

since we're into splitting the hair, how do you define what Hamilton did the race before Spa 2014, Budapest, when he pushed Nico off track? I'd really like to know. Or, by the very same token, what you think of what Hamilton did at the first corner of the first lap of the Montreal GP this year: everything ok?

It seems to me that Hamilton is the kind of driver that always puts other drivers in the position of either backing off or having a crash: Rosberg backed off so many times that many people (myself included for that matter) didn't believe that he had what it takes to be WDC, on the odd occasion he takes a stand and makes a point (that's what he said after Spa 2014, that he had to make a point), IMHO he should defend his ground more often than he does.

There's a very interesting docu out there of a similar matter, the battle for the 1983 British F3 title between Senna and Brundle, Senna was using the very same tactics that Hamilton uses with Rosberg, you just have to watch it because what Brundle (and others) say about that approach is very interesting.

Hamilton behaves like that with Rosberg (and not with other drivers...) because he knows that he can get away with it, one the one hand Mercedes want him to win and on the other he knows that Rosberg is not going to go OTT in his criticism of the situation (and when needed Rosberg is willing to let him through, like he did at Monaco) 

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1 hour ago, Massa said:

Mercedes let their team get out of control in 2014, and never regained it (or maybe 2013—in the Malaysian GP, the second race of this teammate pairing, Rosberg refused to obey team orders from Ross Brawn to let Hamilton through...

Are you sure about that? I thought he did with the following comment (paraphrasing):...not happy about it, but I did it (let him through), this once, from respect for Ross...

Oh boy, how wrong he was thinking this will be a one time anomaly.

 

2014 incident - Publius, Prost, Montoya, Villeneuve, Andretti, Sakae, to name a few, who do think it was a racing incident. 

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42 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Are you sure about that? I thought he did with the following comment (paraphrasing):...not happy about it, but I did it (let him through), this once, from respect for Ross...

Oh boy, how wrong he was thinking this will be a one time anomaly.

 

2014 incident - Publius, Prost, Montoya, Villeneuve, Andretti, Sakae, to name a few, who do think it was a racing incident. 

Jackie Stewart thought that it was a racing incident, and if I remember correctly Nigel Roebuck, as well as many others

 

BTW, if you have a chance watch this docu, it's very interesting 

 

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I don't know why I try to be fair and say both drivers have caused issues at Mercedes.  I should double-down like everyone else and say Hamilton is guiltless his whole career and Rosberg murdered Senna.

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Maybe Rosberg also did something to Hamilton, there is such possibility, but I just cannot come up with anything at the moment. 

To be fair, I am not his fan either, but for some silly reasons I cannot explain, I have rather attempted (and probably miserably failed) to defend Rosberg, the designated underdog, who is under barrage of senseless attacks by his teammate, his management, media and fans. Hamilton is in this merely collateral damage due to his own doings, on and off the track. Take that one day Ecclestone is showing him through our throats as a model person, kids included, only next day I am being shown by the same kids an image of him smoking turkish pipe, and whatever else. What is there to say? Problem is, some of us do like F1, we are trying to keep pulse of the sport, in my case daily, yet Hamilton, unfortunately is in my face also daily whether I like it or not. He must like it that way, because I do not see him slowing down any time soon.

BTW, last week Ecclestone predicted that Hamilton will be this year WDC. I think it's nice of him to let us know beforehand how it ends, dont't you think?

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4 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

no one else at the time took the same view of that accident, it was deemed as a racing accident, pure and simple

since we're into splitting the hair, how do you define what Hamilton did the race before Spa 2014, Budapest, when he pushed Nico off track? I'd really like to know. Or, by the very same token, what you think of what Hamilton did at the first corner of the first lap of the Montreal GP this year: everything ok?

It seems to me that Hamilton is the kind of driver that always puts other drivers in the position of either backing off or having a crash: Rosberg backed off so many times that many people (myself included for that matter) didn't believe that he had what it takes to be WDC, on the odd occasion he takes a stand and makes a point (that's what he said after Spa 2014, that he had to make a point), IMHO he should defend his ground more often than he does.

There's a very interesting docu out there of a similar matter, the battle for the 1983 British F3 title between Senna and Brundle, Senna was using the very same tactics that Hamilton uses with Rosberg, you just have to watch it because what Brundle (and others) say about that approach is very interesting.

Hamilton behaves like that with Rosberg (and not with other drivers...) because he knows that he can get away with it, one the one hand Mercedes want him to win and on the other he knows that Rosberg is not going to go OTT in his criticism of the situation (and when needed Rosberg is willing to let him through, like he did at Monaco) 

That's exactly what I've noticed, if your fighting hard with Lewis you have to back of or there will be an accident because he doesn't know when enough is enough or when to back out. There rivalry is turning into a more aggressive and  dangerous than webber and vettels and we both saw them do some pretty stupid and dangerous stuff against each other. After watching the incident a few more times I've noticed two new things that stand right out and change the whole event. From an aerial sort of view watching the drivers come into turn 2 you see nico slightly lock the right front and rear coming into the corner, that smoke is hidden due to loads of carbon being released at the same time, took me a while to notice it, but it seems nico was actually under steering into Lewis with not much control. The second thing I saw is how far to the left nico was, he literally left Lewis just that one car width gap, therefore if you stay on the outside, your going to touch on the exit guaranteed if both drivers are running those lines. So I now put it 100% at Lewis's door, nico had the inside simple as that, he can run out as far wide as possible if he is ahead, just like webber and Vettel in Turkey 2010, webber was the lead car therefor had the line and could run as far out to the edge of the circuit as he pleases. Now I watch it again, I don't think nico even had to leave the one car gap as Lewis was to far back when they entered the braking zone.

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The story of Austria in the land of Nico and Lewis will continue, at least for a while. New development has Wolff pushing for issuance of team orders. Nico is fine with it, Lewis is not. If he thinks he has unspoken No. 1 status in that team, then I can understand his resistance, especially when expectations are, that he will have to come from behind in next several races due to grid penalties. It will be another comedy hour after race, should he disobey team orders, and Wolff will defend him on PR front.

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Nico is open to it because it helps protects his lead, Lewis doesn't want them because it will make his job harder. Lewis would want them if nico was behind him in the points, you can guarantee that.

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