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Emmcee

How Much Have Mclaren Improved?

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My friend in Canberra moans about the coverage of motorsport there, so I know how it is ;) Actually you say it's free to air tv here, but we all have to buy a tv license that costs almost £150 so it's not entirely free. Cheaper than pay per view of course, but not strictly free.

I grew up in Canberra then moved to Gold Coast.

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You can't go from Sh#t to glory in a few weeks over the winter. There is an improvement at Woking and a better understanding of both parties's aims and targets but the car is still two secs off the pace without radical tyre-eating tweaks to the chassis. That's it and it won't get much better until 2017 in my view. Honda definitely have an engine to win GPs with but it won't fit into a zero concept car. McLaren need to design a chassis for an engine rather than sticking with the current config. Alonso will go elsewhere but he has lost a chunk of cred through his involvement in this project and may be unemployable whereas Jenson has added mucho kudos for the way he has handled both the situation and Alonso. It will come good eventually, honour will demand it from Honda's point of view but it will be too late for Fernando I fear.

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I don't think so, mclaren have the best line up in the field and both boys love the chassis, it's got to be hp related as that car handles quite well. Both alonso and button will be stupid not to hang onto 2017 and see what happens there.

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Ferrari has the same, if not better line up of drivers. Räikkönen certainly matches Button, just as Vettel not only matches, but stands apart from Alonso, and as his more current performance suggests that Vettel is not living only on c#cktails of yesteryears, but has fresh track record to prove it.

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I was going to say with the one possible exception of Ferrari, I don't think any driver could match alonso if alonso had competitive machinery, again just an opinion but if they all had equal cars, this is how I think it would pan out

1-alonso

2-Ricciardo

3-Vettel

4-Button

5-hamilton

That's my top 5 fastest if they had all the same car.

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I was going to say with the one possible exception of Ferrari, I don't think any driver could match alonso if alonso had competitive machinery, again just an opinion but if they all had equal cars, this is how I think it would pan out

1-alonso

2-Ricciardo

3-Vettel

4-Button

5-hamilton

That's my top 5 fastest if they had all the same car.

Ricciardo faster then Vettel? Seriously? I know you're going to point to 2014 now, but to me that's not accurate. That car better suited Ricciardos driving style way more than Vettel's, plus Seb had way more mechanical failures as well.

Button ahead of Hamilton , I disagree there too ;) At McLaren Hamilton usually did better than Button when they were team mates. I wish he hadn't but sadly, he did.

In the right car Alonso is really good, very, very good but I am still not sure I'd put him top of a list,

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Such lists are inherently subjective, based on dubiously suited data of irrelevant parameters, thus at the end socially divisive, and contributing very little to substantive discussion about race-craft. I must be getting really old.

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Iam blown away as to how someone can say that Redbulls car was better suited to Ricciardo, that just blows my mind. So your saying Redbull put all there eggs into ricciardos basket and forget Seb is a 4x champ? Ricciardo simply out drove him in a car built for Vettel in 2014 Vettel had 3 retirements to Daniels one but dan was disqualified aswell so there's another 15 points he would've had, not to mention being asked to let dan through and getting outsmarted under brakes at monza, you never saw schumi rattled like that and that's who he wants to be compared to. As for button, button scored more points and made a lot less stupid mistakes than Hamilton did and with his smooth driving style, that's what put him ahead.

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Car handling was compromised by late configuration of the new PU system. Whether prototype was initially designed for a driver-x or driver-y is totally irrelevant, because ultimately when testing began, its drivability was to no one's satisfaction; so much can be said without speculations. Seb had to his account 500 km less behind the wheel then DR had, when season started, all due to reliability issues. Car was not ready, Seb was not ready, so why he has to be even today subjected to defamation is beyond me.

There is a school of taught, that DM of RBR actually wanted someone else to replace Vettel, because media were piling on Vettel's head so much negativity, that he has become uneasy guest, and it was no good for RB drink business. This hypothesis has some footing in fact, that when Vettel ultimately called DM to tell him that he want to leave, RB accepted immediately without any further discussion, and the same with Horner. Evening he was told during dinner, and next morning Kvyat was announced as his replacement. There is some conjecture in this, but processing speed of his departure was suspect, and certainly not what one would have expected. What Horner actually said at later date, that Vettel had on his car far more equipment related issues (reliability), than it was publicly admitted, yet Seb never made any excuses similar to Hamilton last year, when he was explaining why he has lost 3 races - Rosberg had setup favorable to him, duh. In conclusion, DR had a better year in 2014, and that's fine, because year after it was Kvyat who somehow to get ahead of him. Such is life, and Seb is back in different car which last year was built around Kimi, but no one is complaining.

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I totally agree that last years Ferrari was built around kimi and Seb had a fantastic year and I already said it had made me totally reassess him as a complete driver and that even backs my point up even more as it shows what season Seb could've had in 2014 if only he could get to grips with the car sooner, I understand he didn't get the testing mileage Ricciardo got but how long does he need to catch up? A whole season? He's a 4x champ, so adaptability IMO in today's ever changing era has to contribute to how good the driver is and that IMO also favours Ricciardo at this point, as I don't think Seb would've done any better than Ricciardo at Redbull last year but that's my opinion. But Seb told Redbull he wanted to leave a lot earlier than when the media caught on as he got quite vocal towards the team as they eventually started "shutting" him out of certain technical information and development as the team now saw him as a competitor and was afraid info would be taken to Ferrari. It didn't just happen over night, as soon as the media caught on,then kvyat was named. Man I love talking to you as you also make some very valid and plausible explanations.

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I don't believe last years car was built around Kimi. This year however, his results of lack thereof will either end his career at Ferrari, prolong it, or be good enough he still finds another team.

The more I've read about car development schedules, the longer and more complex it is with time, planning and personnel. Each car can take 2-3 years of design, planning, development and implementation.

Ferrari also went through some major upheavals these past couple of years. Changes in the management, overdue changes in the driver lineup, makes this far from black & white.

The 2015 Ferrari was still built around Alonso. He only confirmed he was leaving Ferrari in the last week of November 2014. Far far too late in the cars development to then suddenly change direction. It's hardly a secret by now that Alonso has preferred very unique car setups. And that quite often it's at complete odds with his team mate. Add in the push rod vs pull rod, and it still added up to a car with a lousy front end for Kimi in 2015.

2016, that is the year we can all judge him on, with a car that was not designed for Alonso's unique or even some say peculiar preferences. Kimi isn't so fussy. Just give him a great front end, let the rear be loose if need be and he'd be happy. The Alonso cars were the complete opposite of what Kimi needed. By now surely most people can see that Alonso really is not the God of car development he so famously but foolishly claimed when he first moved to McLaren.

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I agree to an extent, I really hope Ferrari can really stick it to Mercedes and both drivers from both teams consistently fighting it out.

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I don't believe last years car was built around Kimi. This year however, his results of lack thereof will either end his career at Ferrari, prolong it, or be good enough he still finds another team.

The more I've read about car development schedules, the longer and more complex it is with time, planning and personnel. Each car can take 2-3 years of design, planning, development and implementation.

Ferrari also went through some major upheavals these past couple of years. Changes in the management, overdue changes in the driver lineup, makes this far from black & white.

The 2015 Ferrari was still built around Alonso. He only confirmed he was leaving Ferrari in the last week of November 2014. Far far too late in the cars development to then suddenly change direction. It's hardly a secret by now that Alonso has preferred very unique car setups. And that quite often it's at complete odds with his team mate. Add in the push rod vs pull rod, and it still added up to a car with a lousy front end for Kimi in 2015.

2016, that is the year we can all judge him on, with a car that was not designed for Alonso's unique or even some say peculiar preferences. Kimi isn't so fussy. Just give him a great front end, let the rear be loose if need be and he'd be happy. The Alonso cars were the complete opposite of what Kimi needed. By now surely most people can see that Alonso really is not the God of car development he so famously but foolishly claimed when he first moved to McLaren.

2015 Ferrari was built around Kimi -- that was said by one of the insiders. I would have to look for it in sea of interviews, just as admisssion, that in previous years car was built around Alonso.

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Ahh finally someone who agrees, I've been saying for ages that the Ferrari was built around kimi as they would've started building the car before Seb made the deal. But hey it doesn't hold weight here apparently. I remember it all last season, that with alonso gone, who seems to have held kimi back, the 2014 car was finally setup around kimi and that he would have a brilliant year and...... Yeah, just wait for the excuses to come once alonso passes kimi for position.

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Kimi had number of reliability issues, and to his defense, new management appears quickly to point towards a driver in lieu of equipment, so much was noticed, but at the end they know the truth, and most likely a reason why Kimi has another contract extension. (Too soon to talk about 2017 one way or another).

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Me personally I think kimi only has a seat purely on marketing purposes. He's like Valentino Rossi where as he has heaps of fans and that with the fact he drives for Ferrari. IMO there's drivers out there that could do the same if not better job than kimi for a fraction of the salary.

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Yeah well, tell it to McLaren. Magnussen and some newcomer could both drive that car for fraction of cost current drivers demand (for sitting on a beach chair).

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Bah no way, how can someone with only a years experience steer a team like mclaren in the right direction? It would be like Luca badoer trying to rebuild Ferrari instead of Schumacher. Where have all the mclaren fans gone anyway? Times get tough so they jump onto a new wagon? Guess they will return when good results start coming back.

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Ahh finally someone who agrees, I've been saying for ages that the Ferrari was built around kimi as they would've started building the car before Seb made the deal. But hey it doesn't hold weight here apparently. I remember it all last season, that with alonso gone, who seems to have held kimi back, the 2014 car was finally setup around kimi and that he would have a brilliant year and...... Yeah, just wait for the excuses to come once alonso passes kimi for position.

A point that must be made outside of this topic, is it finally clicked for me why you rub some people the wrong way. You post in agreeance with a lot of posters here, then proceed to do the complete opposite and go on a tangent at total odds with supposedly agreeing with someone. Thus you’re not really agreeing with them in the first place. Then there are times you go on about a subject regardless of what others say, despite others posting proper facts about a subject and brush it off as someone only having an opinion. The case in point has to be how you continue to hold aloft Ricci for having one good year and getting the better of Vettel, but then defend Ricci with various reasons and so on, when someone points out Kvyat beat Ricci. If someone points out this is hypocritical and if that was the case, that mindset then must apply to Vettel and even to a lesser extent Kimi, you turn on those people and never actually answer the question or confront the issue at hand.

This is not an attack on you, it's an observation on how I perceive your attitude on these forums. So when you make a post and say, yay someone finally agrees with me, it's comes across that that's all you've wanted. Just someone to agree to you, even if in the past evidence and facts say so otherwise. This isn't gang or a take sides type of place.

This forum is a much better place when people can agree to disagree, voice their opinions and even have a laugh about it. But too many times you've turned things personal and before this year is about to start, I'd like to request everyone including yourself to keep it light hearted and respect others. Use your words, logic, intellect and knowledge to debate and if you feel the need to, try and win an argument. We're not soccer hooligans or people who need to beat up on each other. At present this sport totally sucks, so let's not make it worse by slamming each other.

It's ok to have a different opinion. It's not ok to preach tolerance but be completely intolerant to those who have a differing view.

Let's get behind our teams, the drivers we support and maybe have a more productive year on these forums, rather than the mud slinging from years past.

Can't we all just get along!? lol

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2015 Ferrari was built around Kimi -- that was said by one of the insiders. I would have to look for it in sea of interviews, just as admisssion, that in previous years car was built around Alonso.

I'd like to know more about this Sakae. My understanding was that Ferrari at the time had two different design teams working on alternate years cars. I'm not sure if they do this anymore however. The 2015 car still had pull rod suspension, and that doesn't line up with Kimi requiring a more tight front end.

I remembered this quote from Ted Kravitz at the time. My impression from a James Allison comment was that they really didn't have the time to change from pull-rod to push-rod and had to focus on other areas of the car first.

"Ferrari have two drivers who prefer to have a sharp end and so to still have the pull-rod system is a big question mark to me," says Sky Sports F1's Ted Kravitz after seeing the first images of the SF15-T.

Add in the total overhaul of many big names who all got sacked from the team, and I still get the strong impression 2016 might be the first true Allison car, free from any past designers, top personel, and Alonso himself. When you look at all the changes in personal, team director and so on, it's not hard to feel there was still so much legacy designs and other leftovers, that still had not been changed or weeded out.

Look at the names who left or got pushed starting from mid 2014, a time when the 2015 car should have already been designed and the first baby steps of it being built, you see things were anything but ordinary. Domenicali, Marmorini, Montezemolo himself, then Fry and Tombazis left. Whilst Allison has been with Ferrari for a couple of years now, he still was dealing with so many top and key people who were all gone in the space of not even a year.

Alonso smashed Kimi in 2014. That's another reason I can't yet come to grips with Ferrari then designing their 2015 car around Kimi as you mention, because for the first half of the year, it got so bad the press talked for months about Kimi being replaced by Ricci or Bottas. Even Arrivabene got stuck into Kimi publicly a few times and inferred his position in the team was on shaky ground. Things did get better for Kimi in the 2nd half of the season, but by then the 2015 car design process was already in the completion stages. Those are not platforms for a team to then change total direction from an Alonso based design to Kimi.

At any rate, I am interested if you are able to find more info on these "insiders", and what they actually said.

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A point that must be made outside of this topic, is it finally clicked for me why you rub some people the wrong way. You post in agreeance with a lot of posters here, then proceed to do the complete opposite and go on a tangent at total odds with supposedly agreeing with someone. Thus you’re not really agreeing with them in the first place. Then there are times you go on about a subject regardless of what others say, despite others posting proper facts about a subject and brush it off as someone only having an opinion. The case in point has to be how you continue to hold aloft Ricci for having one good year and getting the better of Vettel, but then defend Ricci with various reasons and so on, when someone points out Kvyat beat Ricci. If someone points out this is hypocritical and if that was the case, that mindset then must apply to Vettel and even to a lesser extent Kimi, you turn on those people and never actually answer the question or confront the issue at hand.

This is not an attack on you, it's an observation on how I perceive your attitude on these forums. So when you make a post and say, yay someone finally agrees with me, it's comes across that that's all you've wanted. Just someone to agree to you, even if in the past evidence and facts say so otherwise. This isn't gang or a take sides type of place.

This forum is a much better place when people can agree to disagree, voice their opinions and even have a laugh about it. But too many times you've turned things personal and before this year is about to start, I'd like to request everyone including yourself to keep it light hearted and respect others. Use your words, logic, intellect and knowledge to debate and if you feel the need to, try and win an argument. We're not soccer hooligans or people who need to beat up on each other. At present this sport totally sucks, so let's not make it worse by slamming each other.

It's ok to have a different opinion. It's not ok to preach tolerance but be completely intolerant to those who have a differing view.

Let's get behind our teams, the drivers we support and maybe have a more productive year on these forums, rather than the mud slinging from years past.

Can't we all just get along!? lol

You put that much effort into analysing me than looking at the issue I've been trying to point out. I've been saying for ages the car was built around kimi even all you guys said the same thing and at the end of the year do a complete 180 and hint that that wasn't the case. It was easier to do this and hope people forgot what some said as they didn't want to accept yet another dismal season and accept there wrong. If you can't see my point on the Ricciardo,Vettel,kvyat debate, then it's a waste of breath. Like I've stated before many times, doesn't a newcomer coming to a team ran by a 4x champion because anyone who says Redbull didn't build the car in the direction Vettel wanted is an absolute joke, to come in and learn how the team runs and beat Seb considerably over the season. If dan beat for a few races then Vettel came back, I'd see your point but he didn't and everyone is looking for excuses when there isn't any. I've found in this forum whenever posted things to deal with common sense, people would rather rattle of bs and beat around the bush than go "hey your right" and what's this about being personal? Are you doing what most do best here? And dissect posts because I felt like I was just dishing out what I initially received but hey, who reads full posts now right? I base it of opinion so it's open to interpretation and fairness, you accuse me of not looking at people's Information posted on here, why would I? When no one considers mine an opinion or if it's correct, admit it. I've admitted I've been wrong quite a few times but I don't think I remember anyone else doing the same. Iam all sweet I just hate being told Iam doing something when Iam not, people arnt me, they don't know what Iam feeling or thinking or experienced racing myself as clearly that experience I've had holds no weight what so ever.

Iam all sweet mate and ready for the new season but I thought you would have figured me out by now and realise Iam passionate and I don't start sh17 for no reason, but obviously Iam still pushed aside as I think differently and it's not just about f1 I think differently so wave lengths arnt even on the same level mate but I don't blame people for that like most of society would. The reason I got so excited and apparently only wanted this, was seeing someone say something I've been saying for ages, so there you have admitted I've mentioned that and now someone else has, it's a relief that someone actually can see it for how it is and not live in this delusion, your accusing me of saying one thing then saying the other, did that come from one of the earlier posts I posted because I swear I've said that a dozen times when people look for ammunition on defending kimi. You all think Iam here to stir the pot, I said I like kimi and Seb but when I state my opinion it goes of the hook and it's the same with fans of these drivers on other forums Iam on it's like it's a vendetta, these same fans had no issue with Ricciardo or alonso prior to them beating there respected teammates so it makes me question the actual knowledge of those particular fans to begin with.

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If I caused any of this by suggesting the Red Bull suited Ricciardo more than Vettel in 2014, then I'm sorry, but that is my view. My friends and I discussed it a lot at the time and that is seriously what I, and they believe.

Vettel is a 4 x World champion, he knows how to set up a car and so on. There was talk that Helmut Marko wanted him out of Red Bull to lower the wage bill and for a few other reasons, and oh look, suddenly he has a car he can't drive. Did he lose his skill overnight? Obviously not, he's not lost any of the skill. If it was a Vettel issue I believe he wouldn't have been that good in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and then again as soon as he went to Ferrari in 2015. Maybe it wasn't all down to the car, maybe it was a feeling within the team where he felt 'unwelcome' or whatever. Something happened in 2014 other than Vettel suddenly losing the ability to win races. As for Red Bull setting the car up for Ricciardo, he was driving for the sister team so they knew his style and set up very well. I also think they realised people were getting fed up of Vettel winning everything, they wanted a bright shiny new talent and new kid on the block, so they made sure Ricciardo was it.

I could be way off but I really don't think I am. I've watched F1 for long enough to know that not everything is always as it appears at first glance, you have to take the bits and pieces of information and put them together yourself. If I've done that and I'm wrong then I will freely admit it, but I truly and honestly don't think I am on this. Maybe part of it is me being biased as a Vettel fan, I can't say for sure but I try not to do that.

I don't want a fight with anyone and if I in any way caused a problem with my views I'll say I'm sorry now, but that is my opinion and although many have tried, no one has yet managed to convince me I'm wrong yet.

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I'd like to know more about this Sakae. My understanding was that Ferrari at the time had two different design teams working on alternate years cars. I'm not sure if they do this anymore however. The 2015 car still had pull rod suspension, and that doesn't line up with Kimi requiring a more tight front end.

I remembered this quote from Ted Kravitz at the time. My impression from a James Allison comment was that they really didn't have the time to change from pull-rod to push-rod and had to focus on other areas of the car first.

Add in the total overhaul of many big names who all got sacked from the team, and I still get the strong impression 2016 might be the first true Allison car, free from any past designers, top personel, and Alonso himself. When you look at all the changes in personal, team director and so on, it's not hard to feel there was still so much legacy designs and other leftovers, that still had not been changed or weeded out.

Look at the names who left or got pushed starting from mid 2014, a time when the 2015 car should have already been designed and the first baby steps of it being built, you see things were anything but ordinary. Domenicali, Marmorini, Montezemolo himself, then Fry and Tombazis left. Whilst Allison has been with Ferrari for a couple of years now, he still was dealing with so many top and key people who were all gone in the space of not even a year.

Alonso smashed Kimi in 2014. That's another reason I can't yet come to grips with Ferrari then designing their 2015 car around Kimi as you mention, because for the first half of the year, it got so bad the press talked for months about Kimi being replaced by Ricci or Bottas. Even Arrivabene got stuck into Kimi publicly a few times and inferred his position in the team was on shaky ground. Things did get better for Kimi in the 2nd half of the season, but by then the 2015 car design process was already in the completion stages. Those are not platforms for a team to then change total direction from an Alonso based design to Kimi.

At any rate, I am interested if you are able to find more info on these "insiders", and what they actually said.

To find that reference could be a big job, since I read lot, so no guarantees. Without strong search engine I am looking for a needle in haystack. I am actually not entirely clear myself why Ferrari brass was saying that 2016 car is first which is all Allison (with Vettel's input). I thought that at one point he was already in charge of 2015 vehicle as his sole project at the time. What was definitely done for Kimi was reinforcing support from rear under braking, and strong front in mid corner. That confirmation came from Allison.

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No you touched on a few good points and that's your opinion, I never said Vettel lost his skill, could it be that the car was more difficult for him to drive as he liked the blown diffuser? 2014 brought new regulations but the team would've still consulted Seb in what things he would like done and what not, yes that's true that dan drove for the sister team and they would have an idea on what he likes setup wise but would he have the experience Seb does in how the team operates day in day out compared to toro Rosso? No I don't beleive so, there for that's a learning curve right there. You have nothing to apologise for, just some people want to make it a people forum and analyse individuals than there concepts about f1. The toro Rosso dan drove had quite a twitchy rear end and few have said that before as a possibility as to why he adapted so well.

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To find that reference could be a big job, since I read lot, so no guarantees. Without strong search engine I am looking for a needle in haystack. I am actually not entirely clear myself why Ferrari brass was saying that 2016 car is first which is all Allison (with Vettel's input). I thought that at one point he was already in charge of 2015 vehicle as his sole project at the time. What was definitely done for Kimi was reinforcing support from rear under braking, and strong front in mid corner. That confirmation came from Allison.

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/ferrari/news/2015-ferrari-built-for-raikkonen_219734.html

You are welcome

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