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Sakae

Silly Season

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It seems that this story never gets old for some people interested to keep DR's options alive. It should, even as I doubt it, put end to widespread speculation how much veto power on hiring Vettel has at Ferrari, or wishes to block because of his alledged fear of competition.

That's another thing, of course Vettel would have some say, why wouldn't he? Why would the team want to risk a flare up? Yep Seb would have a say or have his opinion heard anyway, it doesn't prove anything because common sense and you would ask him, I know I would if I was team owner, I wouldn't want to disrupt Vettel or even worse cause drama amongst my drivers.

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Where is the evidence that Vettel is a decision maker who drives for Ferrari (or RBR)?

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Strongest hint yet, that Kimi is staying. He goes through great pain not to say what he is actually saying.

During the Canadian Grand Prix driver’ official FIA press conference in Montreal, Raikkonen played down the rumours, saying only that he would be “happy” to stay at Ferrari beyond 2016.

But later, in an interview with F1’s official website, he hinted that he knows more than that.

“I know what is going on — and that is enough for me,” said the 36-year-old. “I know that will not stop any rumours – but I also know that the future will prove many people wrong! But: my lips are sealed!”

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I like Ricciardo, I really do, but I find the argument that since Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014 then he's a better driver a bit weak, correct me if I'm wrong but when the season started Vettel was much more competitive than Ricciardo only he suffered many mechanical problems and in Canada, when Ricciardo took his first win, he was given the victory in the very same way as Verstappen was given the victory a few weeks ago, the only difference being that while we all agree that Ricciardo should have won in Spain very few people agree that in Canada 2014 Vettel deserved to be ahead of Ricciardo.

Never mind that, since we're into comparisons, I presume that you all agree that Kvyat is better than Ricciardo because he beat him last year and was beating him this season until Kvyat had to make room for Max, Vergne is better than Ricciardo since he beat him in Fomrula Renault 3.5 and in their first year together at STR (it's 2 to 1 to Vergne, Ricciardo was ahead in 2013), and the same applies to Robert Wickens, Alexander Rossi and Albert Costa.

As I said I presume that you all agree that the above drivers are better than Ricciardo, or aren't they?

I think that Ricciardo is a great guy and a fantastic racer (probably the best racer after Alonso), he's certainly very talented but I suggest one very simple test: this week end we have a (usually fantastic) race in Canada (that I'll be forced to miss since I'm in Albion this week and C4 is going to broadcast it at 11pm, it looks as if Bernie thinks that F1 fans don't have to go to work on monday mornings), try and watch it with a large screen TV with high resolution, try and focus on the last chicane, if you can try and save the slow motion images that they usually broadcast of the various drivers taking that corner, especially the exit into the straight, very often they will also show the diagram on the throttle and brake usage, watch carefully the various drivers and you'll notice that the differences are huge, then you'll tell me if Ricciardo is a better driver than Vettel. It's not a matter of being a fan of one or the other, I personally believe that there's a reason why everyone involved with F1 says that the 3 best drivers in F1 are Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso and IMHO you can clearly see that when you watch how the various drivers take that turn.

That doesn't mean that Ricciardo is not a great driver, and personally I'd love to see him win the WDC soon, I find watching him race a great joy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's the best out there or that he's better than Vettel

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Where is the evidence that Vettel is a decision maker who drives for Ferrari (or RBR)?

It's called common sense sakae and if you were a team manager you would ask him for his opinion as you wouldn't want to start tension in the team. Man you take stuf savagly out of context, I never said he made the decision, I simply said they would ask his opinion, as would any team with any current driver to be teamed up with a new one, called common sense sakae.

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I like Ricciardo, I really do, but I find the argument that since Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014 then he's a better driver a bit weak, correct me if I'm wrong but when the season started Vettel was much more competitive than Ricciardo only he suffered many mechanical problems and in Canada, when Ricciardo took his first win, he was given the victory in the very same way as Verstappen was given the victory a few weeks ago, the only difference being that while we all agree that Ricciardo should have won in Spain very few people agree that in Canada 2014 Vettel deserved to be ahead of Ricciardo.

Never mind that, since we're into comparisons, I presume that you all agree that Kvyat is better than Ricciardo because he beat him last year and was beating him this season until Kvyat had to make room for Max, Vergne is better than Ricciardo since he beat him in Fomrula Renault 3.5 and in their first year together at STR (it's 2 to 1 to Vergne, Ricciardo was ahead in 2013), and the same applies to Robert Wickens, Alexander Rossi and Albert Costa.

As I said I presume that you all agree that the above drivers are better than Ricciardo, or aren't they?

I think that Ricciardo is a great guy and a fantastic racer (probably the best racer after Alonso), he's certainly very talented but I suggest one very simple test: this week end we have a (usually fantastic) race in Canada (that I'll be forced to miss since I'm in Albion this week and C4 is going to broadcast it at 11pm, it looks as if Bernie thinks that F1 fans don't have to go to work on monday mornings), try and watch it with a large screen TV with high resolution, try and focus on the last chicane, if you can try and save the slow motion images that they usually broadcast of the various drivers taking that corner, especially the exit into the straight, very often they will also show the diagram on the throttle and brake usage, watch carefully the various drivers and you'll notice that the differences are huge, then you'll tell me if Ricciardo is a better driver than Vettel. It's not a matter of being a fan of one or the other, I personally believe that there's a reason why everyone involved with F1 says that the 3 best drivers in F1 are Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso and IMHO you can clearly see that when you watch how the various drivers take that turn.

That doesn't mean that Ricciardo is not a great driver, and personally I'd love to see him win the WDC soon, I find watching him race a great joy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's the best out there or that he's better than Vettel

You can't compare 2014 to 2015, two totally different scenarios and in 2014 Vettel only was ahead early on because dan got his second place in Australia scrapped so he was down 18 points already, as for 2015 I've said it time and time again, Ricciardo was way ahead until a series of mechanical issues allowed kvyat to claw his way back. But if you look at the results, when both redbull a finished the race it was usually Ricciardo who would be ahead and scoring the more bulky points. Even when he was behind what 14 points going into Abu Dhabi last year, Ricciardo almost clawed all those points back in one race so I can't see how those two seasons can be compared also when you take into account Vettel being a 4x champ who would've had the whole team working like clockwork to suit his needs and yet dan comes in and dominates him, not be 3 points like kvyat but over 60. How are all these comparisons relevant without proper analysis? Because one did this that the other must do also? Hope we're playing silly buggers because if this is an attempt to side with particular members, that's pretty pi$$ weak IMO.

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Sky

Daniel Ricciardo says he may have to consider leaving Red Bull if they can't offer him the chance to fight for titles over the next few seasons

I have never seen a such circus. This guy is de facto threatening his current employer. Must be pretty sure that he has a place to go, but life at RB never will be the same for him. Not with Dr. Marko.

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Hope we're playing silly buggers because if this is an attempt to side with particular members, that's pretty pi$$ weak IMO.

what do you mean "side with particular members"? this is not the cold war smile.png

I just pointed out an inconsistency in your argument, I know that Ricciardo was unlucky in 2015, I just can't quite understand how you guys can even think of denying the fact that Vettel was equally unlucky in 2014 (and very likely burnt out after 4 WDCs on the trot), this is something that I just don't understand.

I know that Ricciardo is a great guy but are we measuring how nice these guys are or how good as drivers (or racers) they are? Because if we are measuring how good Vettel and Ricciardo are in pure driving terms there is no way that Ricciardo is better, it's not a matter of opinion (and the fact that Vettel is unanimously considered among the 3 best drivers out there and Ricciardo, although a great character and a fantastic racer, is not probably means something), you have some racing experience and I can't believe that you claim that, in pure driving terms (I'm not referring to his attitude, his drive to win, his racecraft, etc), Ricciardo is better than Vettel, I pointed out the last chicane in Montreal and the difference between Vettel and Ricciardo is exactly the same that there is between Hamilton and Rosberg, one has the ability to make the car flow naturally and the other needs to use the brakes to make it turn and adjust its trajectory.

I would be very happy if Rosberg was to win the WDC but I would never in a million years claim that he's a better driver than Hamilton, because quite simply he is not. That doesn't mean that Rosberg can't beat Hamilton (or that Ricciardo can't beat Vettel), it just means that one is more naturally gifted than the other in the art of driving a car around a track. And sadly the very same is true of Ricciardo when compared to Vettel, I repeat it's not a matter of how nice they are or how cool they are, in pure driving terms they are two very different propositions, one is a huge natural talent (with possibly a few flaws as a racer) the other is a very good driver (and a fantastic racer) who had to work hard on his driving (and you just have to look at how he uses his brakes or how much he rows to have the proof thereof) to get to the top

cheers.gif

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Sky

Nico Rosberg should get new Mercedes contract in 'next three weeks', says Niki Lauda

Another week to go then, and we should have Roberg confirmed, according to this headline.

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what do you mean "side with particular members"? this is not the cold war smile.png

I just pointed out an inconsistency in your argument, I know that Ricciardo was unlucky in 2015, I just can't quite understand how you guys can even think of denying the fact that Vettel was equally unlucky in 2014 (and very likely burnt out after 4 WDCs on the trot), this is something that I just don't understand.

I know that Ricciardo is a great guy but are we measuring how nice these guys are or how good as drivers (or racers) they are? Because if we are measuring how good Vettel and Ricciardo are in pure driving terms there is no way that Ricciardo is better, it's not a matter of opinion (and the fact that Vettel is unanimously considered among the 3 best drivers out there and Ricciardo, although a great character and a fantastic racer, is not probably means something), you have some racing experience and I can't believe that you claim that, in pure driving terms (I'm not referring to his attitude, his drive to win, his racecraft, etc), Ricciardo is better than Vettel, I pointed out the last chicane in Montreal and the difference between Vettel and Ricciardo is exactly the same that there is between Hamilton and Rosberg, one has the ability to make the car flow naturally and the other needs to use the brakes to make it turn and adjust its trajectory.

I would be very happy if Rosberg was to win the WDC but I would never in a million years claim that he's a better driver than Hamilton, because quite simply he is not. That doesn't mean that Rosberg can't beat Hamilton (or that Ricciardo can't beat Vettel), it just means that one is more naturally gifted than the other in the art of driving a car around a track. And sadly the very same is true of Ricciardo when compared to Vettel, I repeat it's not a matter of how nice they are or how cool they are, in pure driving terms they are two very different propositions, one is a huge natural talent (with possibly a few flaws as a racer) the other is a very good driver (and a fantastic racer) who had to work hard on his driving (and you just have to look at how he uses his brakes or how much he rows to have the proof thereof) to get to the top

cheers.gif

I simply disagree, you can't claim both scenarios the same when there not and I disagree I think Ricciardos pure pace is faster than Vettel, I really do. Monza 2014 when both were in the same car fighting over the same piece of track and dan simply schooled Sebastian. Even at Monaco, the circuit where driving ability makes the most different, he was fastest there all weekend as well, if your claiming Vettel is better simply because of results, then IMO I think it's unfair.

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Sky

I have never seen a such circus. This guy is de facto threatening his current employer. Must be pretty sure that he has a place to go, but life at RB never will be the same for him. Not with Dr. Marko.

He has to push redbull now if they stand any chance to close the gap. Being vocal like he is especially after being ripped of twice and so close together, the feelings would've been raw mate, his only human.

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RE: Ricciardo beating Vettel in 2014...

Let me tell you a story.

In 2000, Nick Heidfeld beat Jean Alesi (tied at zero points, but Heidfeld had the higher finishes).

In 2001, Nick Heidfeld beat Kimi Räikkönen.

In 2002, Nick Heidfeld beat Felipe Massa (and, for their one race as teammates that year, he beat Heinz-Harald Frentzen).

In 2004, Nick Heidfeld beat the combined total of Giorgio Pantano and Timo Glock (Glock did beat him at Canada, but not in their other races).

In 2006, Nick Heidfeld beat the combined total of Jacques Villeneuve and Robert Kubica.

In 2007, Nick Heidfeld beat the combined total of Robert Kubica and Sebastian Vettel (though he did not beat Vettel in their race together).

In 2009, Nick Heidfeld again beat Robert Kubica. He did not beat Kubica in 2008, but he did beat Kubica overall in their time together.

Finally, in 2011, Nick Heidfeld beat Vitaly Petrov over their 11 races together, and was comprehensively better than his midyear replacement, Bruno Senna.

To recap, that leaves Nick Heidfeld having beaten two WDCs, the guy who came closest to the WDC without winning it, and the supposed would-have-been-WDC Kubica.

But in 2003, Heinz-Harald Frentzen beat Nick Heidfeld. In 2005, Mark Webber beat Nick Heidfeld, and in fact, Webber also beat Sebastian Vettel in 2009. Webber, it seems, is F1's all-time great. Kamui Kobayashi outscored Nick Heidfeld in their few races together in 2010.

The point I am making is this: Massa out-scored Räikkönen through their time together at Ferrari. I don't think anyone considers Massa a better driver than Räikkönen. Ricciardo is very good (better than Massa ever was). But he has to do more to prove his beating Vettel in 2014 was not his Paul di Resta moment, where he makes an entire career out of one year he finished ahead of one driver.

In his defense, Red Bull and Renault haven't been able to give him the best situation in his years there. Even so, to have anything other going much further than "inconclusive" as your assessment of Ricciardo vs. Vettel is pushing it, I think. One season isn't a good data set. Anyone, and I mean anyone, could beat anyone else in one, single season.

I am hoping to be forgiven for minor indiscretion, and using this thread for totally disassociated topic, but since many visit in here, maybe I could hit a jackpot and get some brainy guy to give a shot. Question is, would anyone know how to insert a formatted spreadsheet or a table into a post? Sometimes people tossing things around, yet when you tabulate data for comparative analysis, that puts any discussion on a different level. I've experimented with several variants (I know about), and felt on my face with terrible results. BTW, I use Mac, but among other things I have also MS Word and Excel for Mac, PDF, etc. I haven't tried to create Keynote image, and insert that; it seemed as too much work...

Thanks for consideration.

S.

You have four options I know of:

(1) If you just want it presented in a table format, you can take a screenshot of it and insert it as an image. This won't be an interactive table, but it would show what you want.

(2) You can upload your file to Google Docs, make it publicly visible (but turn off editing from anyone but yourself), and post the link for us to click.

(3) You can attach files to posts (it is below the message box in the advanced view). People would have to download your file to see it. 4.68 MB max.

(4) There is an option to code. If you click the Special BBCode button (right of the eraser and left of the Font selection box), you can choose the type of code you know how to create a table in, and code the table into that box. I can't help you with the functionality of that.

None are great—apologies for that.

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Nick heidfeld beat Villeneuve and that proves my point on Villeneuve, wasn't as good as people made out he got outpaced by massa. In 2006 didn't kubica get a podium in his first race for sauber beating heidfeld? He only did like 3-4 races that year compared to a full season with heidfeld. 2007 was probably heidfelds best season in f1 IMO consistently wise.

2009 is a bit unfair concidering the cars struggled to score any points and reliability often got the results, more luck than ability same as at mclaren the last year or so, webber beat heidfeld in 2005 yes but not by much but webber didn't beat Vettel in 2009 I dont know where your getting that when Vettel had 84 points 4 poles and 4 wins to webbers 69.5 and 1 pole 2 wins so how did webber beat Vettel? This is all pointless concidering Vettel came out and openly admitted that Ricciardo simply did a better job what more can be said than that? Even the guy who got beat says he didn't do as well. Ay Yi Yi people just don't want to admit that Daniel is better, I think he is, he has prooved it in the past and this year so far he is doing the same thing, I think he is the best driver in f1 at the current time, call me biased call me whatever you want but Iam not the only one thinking this, even marko, even Martin brundle, but each to there own.

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I can't believe how people think because one driver is judged by a scenario that all the others have to be judged the same. How is that possible? Different circumstances and scenarios and failures and what ever make each individual and situation different not this " if you do this to one driver you have to do the same to the others" wtf? Seriously where's the common sense people?

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Racing season of 2014 was unique for everyone, be it for regulatory, personal, or whatever other changes. Fact is, DR has not defeated Vettel sitting in Webber's seat, simply because he was racing for TR, and Massa merely confirmed what has been said in here many pages ago, that statistical analysis is a tricky thing, and one season of data is simply not enough for far reaching conclusions. After all, common sense raises a question how a 4 WDC champ suddenly "forgot" how to drive in 2014, only to miraculously recover in 2015 on day 1. We do not understand properly what went on with Vettel in that year, just as Hamilton had his time when things did not work for him in McLaren. I consider as waste of time to dwell on that, for it is past, and important is what is happening right now. DR, based on his rather rebellious (described in media) and risky tone he elected to speak with his employer, might have an offer to drive elsewhere, perhaps even with Ferrari, so, there is chance we will see those two drivers side by side again, and as much as I do not consider team-mates battle as relevant for judging the racer's career, those who do might get their wish.

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How cannot you not take team mate battles seriously? His the closest competitor to having the same equipment as you not to mention shares the same garage.

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There is no a such thing as "the same equipment". Never was, never will be, just as humans are different with different feels and needs and as a species, we will never be the same. Equipment is different, setup is different, track conditions vary from wet spots to dry spots, from a free air to being held up, and much more.

This weekend - allegedly in "the same Ferrari".

Seb - I am happy with this car

Kimi - I had a terrible time with this car

...And I believe both.

When Alonso was with Ferrari, it was a car built around him (confirmed by LdM) to massive detriment of Raikonnen, yet Alonso boasted on more than one occasion that he is doing better than his team-mate and that's good enough for him.

How is that for fairness, and why results obtained under such proposterous conditions should be considered as suitable data sample for statistical analysis?

Sorry, but not in my book.

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Autobild Motorsport

http://www.autobild....i-10264127.html

Rumor:

- Vettel is ready for his contract extension at Ferrari for 3 more years, until 2020 incl.

- Income 100 MM EUR over 3 years

- No.1 status and a say about his team mate (this one is really far fetched by this publication)

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There is no a such thing as "the same equipment". Never was, never will be, just as humans are different with different feels and needs and as a species, we will never be the same. Equipment is different, setup is different, track conditions vary from wet spots to dry spots, from a free air to being held up, and much more.

This weekend - allegedly in "the same Ferrari".

Seb - I am happy with this car

Kimi - I had a terrible time with this car

...And I believe both.

When Alonso was with Ferrari, it was a car built around him (confirmed by LdM) to massive detriment of Raikonnen, yet Alonso boasted on more than one occasion that he is doing better than his team-mate and that's good enough for him.

How is that for fairness, and why results obtained under such proposterous conditions should be considered as suitable data sample for statistical analysis?

Sorry, but not in my book.

Arrrggghhh I didn't say the same equipment did I? I said the CLOSEST to having the same equipment. So your a fan of the actual team and not the driver? Weather you like it or not Sakae drivers in f1 are measured against there teammates, it's has been like that since the sport started, that's how teams can determine who is better than the other.

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I do not follow the herd, which permits me to disregard this team-mate topic. Team-mate comparison for all practical purposes in larger frame of time is wasted effort as far as I am concerned. My interest is aligned with focus how a racer is penetrating obstacles ahead, works with the team, moves to the lead, and where he goes from there.

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Fair enough. Let me ask you a question, you say you don't follow the herd, what does this imply? You mean you don't follow the herd on your everyday life or do you do what you want to do? If you do what you want to do, you will understand when I mean how much trouble it causes won't you?

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So you understand how all these "systems" work then don't you?

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