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Sakae

Silly Season

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2 hours ago, Emmcee said:

Is it just me or does palmer have abit of an attitude? I see it in his body language, he thinks he knows more and has more experience than he actually does.

I have only noticed his results....not his attitude. Most sons of famous drivers don't pan out. Until Rosberg came along, no son of a living F1 driver had ever won a race. 

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But at the end of the day, he is a pay driver and hasn't showed any real "wow, look at that" moment like werhlein has with some of his qualifying efforts and results. What driver with actual talent and is worthy of an f1 seat, missed out due to haryanto? I know that's f1 now but it's quite sad.

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Alex Rossi....although I am not sure he is better than Haryanto (who actually appears to be pretty decent).

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Haryanto's really not been that bad.  He's slower than Wehrlein, but we expected that, and has occasionally kept or exceed his pace.  He hasn't crashed as much as a lot of us figured he would, either.

As for who is on the sidelines because of "pay drivers," well, that's a complicated question.  Why?  Because the budgets to get to GP2, or whatever Formula Renault 3.5 is called now (something with a V8 in the name), or GP3, or European F3 are pretty big, too.  So, most of the drivers in the feeder series aren't even that good.  It used to be, maybe ten years ago, you'd think of names of guys who made it up the ladder, but couldn't get the budget for F1.  Now, I think of guys who made it to Formula Ford or a national F3 championship and fell off the face of the earth.

Now, there are drivers not on the F1 grid who probably should be.  But even that's tricky.  Stoffel Vandoorne, for example, is not kept off the grid because of a lack of pay drivers so much as because of an excess of World Champions at McLaren.  Most of the talented young drivers are part of a program—Ferrari, Red Bull, Williams, McLaren, Mercedes all have development drivers that aren't just pay-to-play (Force India, for example, has a program where you can buy the role of development driver, as Celis has done).  So, they're kept off the grid more by the fact the best teams don't often run rookies paired with some politics, e.g., that a Ferrari Academy driver isn't going to be in a Renault-powered car or a Red Bull-backed driver isn't going to race for Force India which is sponsored by HYPE Energy Drink.

And that makes it something of a myth that pay drivers take rides from talented drivers.  Even if Manor could field a team without any money, in some theoretical world, the other options are really...well, other GP2 pay drivers who had less money, because everyone in GP2 is either a pay driver or already associated with a big team's development program.

Which makes Ruslan correct.  The alternative to Haryanto was Alexander Rossi, and for as much as I like Rossi, his résumé in Europe is underwhelming.  He was better than Stevens and Merhi, but that's a low bar.  He had a great 2015 in GP2, but he was by far the most experienced driver.  From 2009–2014, he carried on a pattern of, "This is Rossi's year—he's learned the tracks, he's with the best team, he was fastest in all the winter tests" and then wham, doesn't come anywhere near the title.

And the alternative to Palmer was Pastor Maldonado.  I think Maldonado is better than Palmer, but this forum was not very kind to Maldonado, so I doubt too many would say they wish he'd kept the seat.

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Great post. Don't have much to add except Maldonado is better than a lot of people give him credit for. He has more raw speed than most paying drivers (but then I also think that Andrea De Cesaris was under-rated as a driver).

Anyhow, it looks like Manor is going to hang onto Haryanto for the rest of the season regardless. Clearly they are impressed with him (and I am kind of impressed with them for not behaving like Sauber).

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Looks like Kvyat is going to be dumped by Red Bull (aka as Toro Rosso). Talk about mismanaging and demoralizing a driver with some real potential. Where will he go? Only so many people can replace Palmer at Renault. Suspect he is out of F1.

We need more real teams. We are starting to see several good drivers without a home.

 

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Yeah I agree, heard he could be Williams bound also.

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The problem is that there are too many drivers out there replacing Palmer and Massa. I don't know how Button and Kvyat both go to Williams while Bottas is there. Same with Renault. It looks like someone (besides Palmer and Massa) are going to be left out in the cold, and I am guessing it is Kvyat....as I doubt he has built up a network of support outside the Red Bull world.

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Kvyat had a great 2015.  He is having a horrible time at Toro Rosso, though, and if I am another team on the grid, I'm pretty aware it's a great risk to take Kvyat on as a race driver.  He had the podium in the Red Bull, the disaster in Sochi, and has just been worse than Sainz in every regard since.  Yes, he has potential, absolutely, but I'd really be weighing the risks—would I rather risk he meet his potential on another team and let him go, or risk him never meeting his potential on my team?

What will save Kvyat, if anything, is that there is a Russian Grand Prix.  I can't imagine a Russian GP without a Russian driver.  I know many countries host races without a driver or team, but look at the folks who attend and fund the Russian GP, and how much it is Ecclestone's baby.

It makes you wonder, then, if Kvyat's future depends more on Sirotkin or Markelov than himself.  If there's funding for Sirotkin or Markelov to graduate to F1 from GP2 (both, in my opinion, are still not ready, due to their inconsistency, but teams need money), there probably isn't going to be the same heft of backers pushing for Kvyat.

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Yes....but where does he go? Renault (or will it be Perez)?, Williams (or will it be Button)?, Force India? Manor?, Sauber? Not of lot of choices out there.

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32 minutes ago, Ruslan said:

The problem is that there are too many drivers out there replacing Palmer and Massa. I don't know how Button and Kvyat both go to Williams while Bottas is there. Same with Renault. It looks like someone (besides Palmer and Massa) are going to be left out in the cold, and I am guessing it is Kvyat....as I doubt he has built up a network of support outside the Red Bull world.

Has bottas been confirmed though? I read that he still has no plans set yet for 2017.

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8 minutes ago, Massa said:

Kvyat had a great 2015.  He is having a horrible time at Toro Rosso, though, and if I am another team on the grid, I'm pretty aware it's a great risk to take Kvyat on as a race driver.  He had the podium in the Red Bull, the disaster in Sochi, and has just been worse than Sainz in every regard since.  Yes, he has potential, absolutely, but I'd really be weighing the risks—would I rather risk he meet his potential on another team and let him go, or risk him never meeting his potential on my team?

What will save Kvyat, if anything, is that there is a Russian Grand Prix.  I can't imagine a Russian GP without a Russian driver.  I know many countries host races without a driver or team, but look at the folks who attend and fund the Russian GP, and how much it is Ecclestone's baby.

It makes you wonder, then, if Kvyat's future depends more on Sirotkin or Markelov than himself.  If there's funding for Sirotkin or Markelov to graduate to F1 from GP2 (both, in my opinion, are still not ready, due to their inconsistency, but teams need money), there probably isn't going to be the same heft of backers pushing for Kvyat.

This is redbulls fault, how is  supposed to work when the team that supported him are screwing him at the same time. He has done nothing wrong, every driver makes mistakes. They wanted verstappen and that one mistake gave them all the opportunity they needed, how is he supposed to focus when he has been shafted so bad? I still can't figure this out and it proves f1 is nothing like it used to be, there's a lot worker drivers out there that got more than kvyat did. Redbull distroyed kvyat and it will affect his entire career now, feel so sorry for him.

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9 minutes ago, Emmcee said:

Has bottas been confirmed though? I read that he still has no plans set yet for 2017.

No....but I am not sure that too many people are going to replace Bottas with Kvyat. If Bottas is on the move from Williams, then he will be competing for the same other seats as Kvyat. Who will people prefer to choose?

The problem is that we may have three people moving in (or up) in F1: Vandoorne potentially to McLaren, the newest Red Bull rookie to Toro Rosso, and Wehrlein potentially up to a better seat (With Perez to Renault and Wehrlein to Force India?)...I gather the first two are relatively certain, there is lots of questions of the Renault seat. So if three people move in/up, then three people have to move out (Massa, Palmer and one other). So where does Kvyat go? Manor? Suspect not.

 

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I read vandoorne could be on his way to manor and werhlein has said its up to Mercedes where he races next year. Renault have also said there happy with there current lineup so no thought yet on 2017 lineup, massa was seen visiting his old pal dominicalli at Lamborghini, could he be looking at a gt seat next season? I think kvyat could end up with Magnussen at Renault, button will partner bottas and if button does move it could possible be a toss up between kvyat and stoffy for that Macca seat. Just theories but gets you thinking.

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Well, I gather part of the problem with Kvyat is that he was a little bit of a butthead at times (and what successful kid in his early 20s is not?). So people are getting a driver who looked great in 2015....but is clearly carrying some baggage in 2016. So, while he is very talented, he has not been consistent and carries some risk. That said, he outqualified DR more than Verstappen has.

The real key to the market I think are Vandoorne and Wehlein. If they are moved into good seats (Manor does not really count), then someone is going to be left without a seat. We will have to see what the next round of rumors hold, but at this stage, I would not be surprised if Kvyat is left out in the cold.

 

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My reading of the situation at Renault is that Magnussen is secure, in part because of sponsorship. I think as their car is definitely going to be faster next season (if Red Bull's performance is any indication), so they are going to be looking to upgrade their drivers. So pretty certain Palmer is history and someone is heading to Renault from somewhere else (Perez, Kvyat, Bottas, Nasr?).

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Could be bottas as rumours going round that kvyat could be on his way to Williams and with massa not scoring any points for Baku, he most likely is gone to but will use his age as the reason why.

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Not a hissy fit?

Interesting situation with Button and Williams. Both parties are now in media stating unequivocally their desire to stay in control of their own destiny, but it sounds to me that Button is twiddling his thumbs, waiting for an offer to stay where he is, and he has not rubber stamped his exit as yet. Williams meanwhile is saying, hey buddy, it would be nice to have you, but on our terms, and we won't wait.

I should add, new headlines suggest McLaren is not going to wait for him either...

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Button said he will wait and see what next years car is like before making any decisions which I take as him having a seat at mclaren, it's just up to him to decide if he will take it. 

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So Button thinks he has a reasonable chance of staying at McLaren. Wonder where they will stash Vandoorne? Can't keep him on ice forever.

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Maybe vandoorne has already found a seat elsewhere as that was the rumour a few weeks ago. Manor or Renault was the rumour and if button has the opportunity and luxury of him making the decision, I suspect this is what has happened.

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I am not sure who is waiting for whom, but from published articles it sounds like Williams and McLaren are waiting for Button. What is Button waiting for, is not entirely clear either, because he will not be able to evaluate car until next year, unless there will be test-outing right after season ending. That test however wasn't approved yet, nor I think both garages will be willing to wait that long. Button might just as well toss the coin, and do so today.

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On 8/2/2016 at 3:49 AM, Emmcee said:

Could be bottas as rumours going round that kvyat could be on his way to Williams and with massa not scoring any points for Baku, he most likely is gone to but will use his age as the reason why.

Agree. My guess is bottas 

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35 minutes ago, Sakae said:

I am not sure who is waiting for whom, but from published articles it sounds like Williams and McLaren are waiting for Button. What is Button waiting for, is not entirely clear either, because he will not be able to evaluate car until next year, unless there will be test-outing right after season ending. That test however wasn't approved yet, nor I think both garages will be willing to wait that long. Button might just as well toss the coin, and do so today.

I think i guessed correctly lol, he should stay in McLaren 

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Perez and Button?

Isn't it funny, that Bottas might be kicked out of the F1 because of Williams? Is it the same Bottas whom Williams was ready to sell to Ferrari last year, asking for horendous and unreasonable price? So, what happened, when a man can lose so much in a year? Perez the same. FI told Arrivabene he can have him, but PAY huge, and now, all is quiet. Willimas cannot pay much, yet all noises subsided. 

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