Think Ill Start Watching Nascar

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

How did he leave the door open when kimi was over 8 car lengths back? He was taking the normal line into the corner and bang!! Kimi was there. Even Martin brundle said it was a stupid move on kimi's behalf as it was a desperate divebomb attempt. If that was leaving the door open then you might as well leave the door open for back markers because that's how far he came from, it's like a driver going into turn one at Melbourne and leaving space for the driver who is exiting the last corner on the straight, that's how far back he was lol,ridiculous statement.

I don't recall Kimi being 8 car lenths back, that would mean about 50 metres which is a significant chunk of braking distance for a turn like that, if he was really 50m behind he would have rammed against Bottas straight ahead at nearly full speed instead Kimi managed to slow down and take the turn. IMHO when you are in a dice you have to make a move when you're behind and you have to make your car bigger when you're ahead. Kimi did what he was supposed to do, IMHO Bottas didn't, he should have covered his line, he had all the space he needed to keep his car slightly to the right (if I remember correctly it was a right turn, wasn't it?), be early on the engine and lose no time. Had they been approaching a fast turn then Bottas could have lost some time in covering his line, but not in such a place

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I don't recall Kimi being 8 car lenths back, that would mean about 50 metres which is a significant chunk of braking distance for a turn like that, if he was really 50m behind he would have rammed against Bottas straight ahead at nearly full speed instead Kimi managed to slow down and take the turn. IMHO when you are in a dice you have to make a move when you're behind and you have to make your car bigger when you're ahead. Kimi did what he was supposed to do, IMHO Bottas didn't, he should have covered his line, he had all the space he needed to keep his car slightly to the right (if I remember correctly it was a right turn, wasn't it?), be early on the engine and lose no time. Had they been approaching a fast turn then Bottas could have lost some time in covering his line, but not in such a place

nicely summed up.

Sorry I'm not really being constructive it's just I've been here before with the same points with no change in thinking or persuasion (Its like being stuck on an esquival cd and put on repeat forever, nothing ever changes)

On the cases of Kimi being in the wrong, I will put up my hand and admit he did, not in this specific case unfortunately. Kimi is also the type of driver who will admit his mistake if he is in the wrong. Its a trait I admire of him

[Emmcee 0]

I was exaggerating when I said that obviously but just look at how far he comes from, there is no way bottas is responsible for this, kimi just lunged at a gap that wasn't there, it's as simple as that. With the experience kimi has, I was surprised he wasn't expecting bottas to turn in, where else was he supposed to go? He had track position and the line.

[Emmcee 0]

I don't recall Kimi being 8 car lenths back, that would mean about 50 metres which is a significant chunk of braking distance for a turn like that, if he was really 50m behind he would have rammed against Bottas straight ahead at nearly full speed instead Kimi managed to slow down and take the turn. IMHO when you are in a dice you have to make a move when you're behind and you have to make your car bigger when you're ahead. Kimi did what he was supposed to do, IMHO Bottas didn't, he should have covered his line, he had all the space he needed to keep his car slightly to the right (if I remember correctly it was a right turn, wasn't it?), be early on the engine and lose no time. Had they been approaching a fast turn then Bottas could have lost some time in covering his line, but not in such a place

This comment here proves lack of racing experience, it is impossible to be on the right here as you won't have the line to make the corner, Iam surprised that must isn't obvious but now it's all starting to make sense.

[Emmcee 0]

What I can't get my head around is that this move by kimi was ok, then the same people say ricciardos move on kimi at Monaco needed a penalty, when kimi under steered wide and left a car width of space, that move was also fair then, the only reason why they collided in Monaco was because kimi had to turn back in or he would've ended up in the barrier and Iam glad he did tbh otherwise there would've been excuses as to why kimi hit the Armco. THAT is double standards, people must not let there dislike for drivers impede there decision and comments on certain incidents. Call me biased if you must but ricciardos move was more than fair on a circuit you can't pass on "oh kimi should've known Ricciardo was there and left him the room" bah cmon guys geez. Least Ricciardo was ally further up the inside than kimi was on bottas before each of them turned in, talk about inconsistancy.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

This comment here proves lack of racing experience, it is impossible to be on the right here as you won't have the line to make the corner, Iam surprised that must isn't obvious but now it's all starting to make sense.

IMHO had Bottas kept slightly to the right, or if you prefer slightly to the outside, coming out of that long left turn Kimi wouldn't have been in a position to try and make his move. And when Bottas noticed that he had Kimi coming alongside him he didn't leave him any room whatsoever, so if I were to apportion blame for this accident it would have to be 60-70% to Bottas and 30-40% to Kimi.

It's interesting that you as a (I gather) great fan of Ricciardo should blame Kimi for trying to pass since what I personally think that sets Ricciardo apart from most of his peers is his willingness to try and pass other cars whenever there is the slightest chance, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't (and in fairness Ricciardo had not chance of getting past Kimi at Monaco), but I'm still grateful that there is someone like Ricciardo willing to take a punt (and more often than not, it works)

Regarding the possibility of covering your line going into that right turn, don't get me wrong but it's one of the easiest things that a driver could do, you just have to change your line and hit the apex late, it's nothing to write home about, and in that situation you would lose very little time since you could be on the power before your challenger. The point is that you have to start your defense while you're on that left hander otherwise it will be too late, you will be caught off guard (which in this case is what I think was the problem for Bottas)

[Emmcee 0]

Bottas didn't have to cover his line as he wasn't expecting an attack from so far back, and he shouldn't be expecting an attack from so far back. If kimi was that much faster, he should've waited for a better opportunity, as bottas wouldn't have anywhere to go but Shut the door, even if he knew kimi was coming. The other thing to, bottas couldn't change his line on that corner without the risk of going off circuit, it's impossible to do so without loosing time or track position due to the degree of the corner. Like I said, bottas wouldn't have even concidered that as the move was a dive bomb attempt. I would totally agree if kimi wasnt so far back, I would then hold the blame firmly at bottas's door but the fact he came from so far back, makes it a mistake on kimi's behalf. Kimi had the right idea but just rushed it IMO.

[spiral.out 0]

This is my honest opinion on Kimi.

In the McLaren years Kimi was the fastest driver in F1 and one of the fastest in history. He was lightning. However the car let him down so much it cost him two WDC.

He got tired of it and started to lose interest. Probably started training less, getting more outside interests plus a pile of money to spend.

Went to Ferrari and won the WDC which he finally deserved.

Still couldn't be a$$ed and eventually lost interest and got the boot. He's a racer and F1 was now less about racing, its about bs tactics pit stops and saving your tires.

He left for a while, came back and pwned his Lotus team mate and was probably working at little harder than before he burnt out.

Back to Ferari, hes now older and past his prime. Probably not working as hard and probably really good to have in the team.

His best days are behind him.

I think like most Kimi fans I am slightly devasted at what might have been, and what would have been a 3 x WDC driver.

But hes the man, hes a crazy basterd and has some of the best one liners in modern sport. Legend.

[Sakae 0]

I think I can correlate to this. I went through the same, when Michael returned, and that car was really no good. As his fan from the day when Alain moved on, the way Schumacher was treated by media drove me almost permanently away from F1.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Yeah I hated seeing Schumi treated badly on his return. I so wished he had stayed one more year. Not so much because of his accident, we have no way of knowing what is ahead for all of us, but because he would have won again. And people would stop with the BS about him losing it.

Good synopsis Spiral. I think we as Kimi fans know he's past it, but still hold out hope for the old race win, a nice smile and some more one liners. Looking back over the years, 2003 and 2005 are the saddest as a fan for me. 2006 was terrible and he'd had enough. Winning in 2007 was proof of that being a good move, but actually if he'd stayed, do you think he would have taken the title at McLaren?

Kimi is a bonafide legend and has done James Hunt proud. Still love his James Hunt helmet at Monaco. Curses for drivers not being able to change helmets either, I honestly really enjoyed it.

[Emmcee 0]

Yeah I have to agree, I don't believe he would've won anymore titles than he has but he has still shown, even today that he is one of the fastest ever over a single lap. He has so many fastest laps but aside from that I don't believe he trains any less, it's just these type of cars suit certain drivers better than others. So in my opinion if f1 ever does go back to that minimal downforce and more mechanical grip cars compared to today's cars, he would be more competitive than now. Quite a few drivers would be. All he has to do is just keep qualifying well and the results will come. But as far as dropping him this season, would be stupid and I think Ferrari should keep him until he decides to leave, everything is just starting to take shape.

[Sakae 0]

For Kimi to stay, I think he has to be ahead off, or very close behind Seb on the podium to support WCC effort. It would be bad karma if Seb wins a race, and Kimi with a healthy car ends up in P5. Reverse is of course possible as well. Both drivers aren't too far apart.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

This is my honest opinion on Kimi.

In the McLaren years Kimi was the fastest driver in F1 and one of the fastest in history. He was lightning. However the car let him down so much it cost him two WDC.

He got tired of it and started to lose interest. Probably started training less, getting more outside interests plus a pile of money to spend.

Went to Ferrari and won the WDC which he finally deserved.

Still couldn't be a$$ed and eventually lost interest and got the boot. He's a racer and F1 was now less about racing, its about bs tactics pit stops and saving your tires.

He left for a while, came back and pwned his Lotus team mate and was probably working at little harder than before he burnt out.

Back to Ferari, hes now older and past his prime. Probably not working as hard and probably really good to have in the team.

His best days are behind him.

I think like most Kimi fans I am slightly devasted at what might have been, and what would have been a 3 x WDC driver.

But hes the man, hes a crazy basterd and has some of the best one liners in modern sport. Legend.

Kimi has always tried to do his best for whichever team he drove for, whatever perceptions his laid-back attitude must have cost him, good or bad. Right now he is in the precarious position of having a teammate who's among the best F1 has ever seen, this after having another teammate a year before who politically manipulated and rallied the team around him, with a car only suited to his driving style. This year, in my view, is one of the most challenging seasons he will ever face, especially since the years have caught up with him and he has lost some speed. However, I still think he can dice it with best thats on the grid...and I still have the faith he can pull it off

[Emmcee 0]

He just needs to keep qualifying well and the results will come.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Yes qualy is good for Kimi. I think this years car is better suited with the revised and normal suspension again.

I love the fact that Kimi is second only to Schumie for fastest laps. It may not ultimately mean something, but look who hes ahead of too. Prost, Mansell, Clark, Hamilton, Hakkinen.

Kimi just doesn't get good luck nowdays. Kimi's car always fails when he's in a good position for points or more. Never when he's spun and coming 13th

[Emmcee 0]

I just can't figure it out but, he is still blindingly fast over a single lap as he still sets fastest laps now but why can't they be consistant enough, you know what I mean? If he could do that every lap of every race, you won't beat him and that's the truth.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

Bottas didn't have to cover his line as he wasn't expecting an attack from so far back, and he shouldn't be expecting an attack from so far back. If kimi was that much faster, he should've waited for a better opportunity, as bottas wouldn't have anywhere to go but Shut the door, even if he knew kimi was coming. The other thing to, bottas couldn't change his line on that corner without the risk of going off circuit, it's impossible to do so without loosing time or track position due to the degree of the corner. Like I said, bottas wouldn't have even concidered that as the move was a dive bomb attempt. I would totally agree if kimi wasnt so far back, I would then hold the blame firmly at bottas's door but the fact he came from so far back, makes it a mistake on kimi's behalf. Kimi had the right idea but just rushed it IMO.

I do believe that there is one vital piece of information that you are omitting: Kimi took the corner perfectly, that only means that his move wasn't a gung ho assault on Bottas. And Bottas could have very easily moved to the outside by just lifting the throttle a tiny bit during that left hand corner and he would have been half a metre to a metre to the right with no harm done to his race, mind you he wasn't try to set a fast lap, all he had to do was defend his position. We can argue that Bottas is still very young and wasn't excpecting Kimi's move and that he probably learned something useful and next time he won't be caught off guard, fair enough, but Kimi's move was a great opportunistic move, he didn't show his cards beforehand to Bottas, and he executed the move brilliantly (he was spot on the apex).

If Kimi pulled out such moves every other week end I'd be his biggest fan. Other than that I find Spiral's post very interesting, even if I have to say that people around him don't say that he doesn't care or that he's laid back, on the contrary he seems to be a very focused and professional person, maybe afer a while he lost the passion, I don't know.

It will be interesting to watch him race this season with a car better suited to his style and I also happen to believe that he's one of the drivers who are going to benefit from the curb on radio traffic with the pit wall

[Emmcee 0]

Yeah but your missing the point, why should bottas have to even lift of the throttle, who would've expected an attack from so far back? That's the point Iam trying to make. Yeah kimi may have taken the corner perfectly but the fact of the matter is, bottas took the normal line and took the normal line turning is as he wouldn't have expected kimi to try over take there and when you watch the incident, there was no way kimi was getting through there without contact. To expect bottas not to turn in is just stupid. At the end of the day, it was a fantastic attempt to pass, but he did from just to far back and like I mentioned before, if kimi was closer and bottas still turned in and the accident happened, then I would lay it firmly at bottas but yeah he was caught of guard because he wasn't expecting an attack from so far back on a corner that the car has to close the door to take the ideal line through that corner. Same as the Schumacher incident in Adelaide 1994. How the hell Damon hill wasn't expecting Schumacher to turn in, I will never know and that's why he wasn't as successful as Schumacher as he wasn't able to think on the spot and as quick as schumi but then again no one could. The whole issue is just how far kimi came from, even Martin Brundle called it a "dive bomb" attempt and quite stupid.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Driver awareness is why it would have been pertinant for Bottas to lift a little. Other drivers lift to avoid collisions at times, it would have served Bottas better in the long run to do that. That's what the rookies and young guys don't have, and that only comes with years of experience. Accept Massa, he's just blind half the time and deaf.

[Emmcee 0]

Yeah but that's in hindsight as well. But IMO bottas had no reason to lift or defend as the attack came from so far back.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

Yeah but your missing the point, why should bottas have to even lift of the throttle, who would've expected an attack from so far back?

I think that with experience these guys learn that if it is technically possible someone will try, and in fact Kimi did try and he executed it perfectly, and I'm sure that next time Bottas won't be caught off guard. Finally I'm sure that he knew perfectly well that he had Kimi on the inside when he turned in (for a number of reasons), at the time I felt that if it was someone else Bottas would have left some room, whereas poor Bottas had being going through months of "Bottas will replace Kimi at Ferrari" and in the end at Ferrari they told him that they didn't want him, it must hurt, and they are both Finnish and if the Finnish press is anything like the Italian, French or British press Bottas knew that they would pester him for days over than pass and so IMHO he accepted that they were going to collide (and that's why I think that he is more to blame). Obviously this is just my view, but it was an interesting chat

[Emmcee 0]

Sorry mate were going to have to agree to disagree. If it's like that then all the drivers should just leave a car width of gap on the inside if someone is a couple car lengths back. Just watch every other drivers onboard camera shot in that particular corner and bottas did the exact same line so it's just my opinion.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

Sorry mate were going to have to agree to disagree. If it's like that then all the drivers should just leave a car width of gap on the inside if someone is a couple car lengths back. Just watch every other drivers onboard camera shot in that particular corner and bottas did the exact same line so it's just my opinion.

yes, we have to agree to disagree, but still it was an interesting discussion and I'm grateful that this forum is proving an interesting place. I rest my case: Bottas did what all the other guys did ONLY WHEN they did not have someone on the inside, and IMHO it's not a minor difference

[Emmcee 0]

Ohh dude I can totally see where your coming from but it's only in affect if your not too far back to make a move. See for all we know kimi made the attempt and half way through it realised it wouldn't work but it's to late as he has already committed to the move so go with a do or die mentality. But it's cool man I respect your opinion and thanks for the discussion.