Are You Bloody Serious?

[Sakae 0]

By that logic you can wipe half of vettel's titles, a few from Schumacher and probably most WDC won throughout the sport. You have your car, you drive it to its capabilities.. Why should the value of the WDC be diminished if the opposition hasn't developed their car as well as Mercedes? (Or any dominant team for that matter) In the last two years, Hamilton has had the car to win, and he has. What more can he do? If WINNING in a dominant car is something to turn the nose up to then poor poor Nico finishing second. You guya must really stick it to him.. oh wait..

No way. Period.

If memory serves, both, Schumacher and Vettel won their titles under fully competitive conditions. Anyone could copy design, work on it, test it, and as the matter of a few races, be on the par with both Ferrari, and RBR. I would challenge anyone to tell me, that situation in past two years is the same.

PU - almost impossible to copy, and it takes more than a year to work on it.

Tokens - an anticompetitive element, nonexistent several years ago

Cost down measures - clamp down on wind tunnel testing, clamp down on track hours testing

Put it differently, you screw up the design today, and you are out of the game. Lucky design will win - unopposed, because current situation allows them legally to stay without much worry who is breathing on their neck.

Mercedes has good design, and WCC was fully deserved in 2014. I am scratching however my head how fair it was in 2015, when competiting teams were really handcuffed. BTW, I am not allone who is making this observation. Only recently, and much later after my rant, basically Boullier, Alonso, and Dennis were talking about it as well, namely, how it is almost impossible to improve your position these days, once you committed an error with the initial design. That's not conjecture, but life reality. Ecclestone actually went after Mercedes to agree and relax some of those roadblocks, but Totto refused. Teams have now taken over two years to work on corrective measures, and they are still not done.

When Schumacher, or even more recently Vettel, EVER held such advantage Hamilton/Rosberg have with their car? The ansnwer is - they have not. Besides, both drivers, Michael and Sebastian are extremely good drivers, and it is my contention they made car look sometimes better than it was actually. Mercedes is however miles ahead without much head scratching.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I actually find interesting how two persons can look at the same thing, and see it in two diametrically opposed lights. In this case you are referring to brilliance, and I am sure that you mean it, whereas I am considering those last two WDC as weakest and most undeserved since early days of competitive and regulated car racing.

Imagine you have 18 VW Beetles on the grid, and 2 Porches, who are continually winning. How fair fight is that? Mercedes deserves WCC, despite some questions whether their development obtained some help which was not available to others (as alledged). WDC however - not for me, sorry.

True,

but you can't hold Hamilton really accountable for producing the goods when the team has delivered an absolute masterpiece, with, I have to add, the other teams tied with hands behind their backs for not delivering in the first place. Hamilton had to come from behind in 2014, and his teammate is no muck with a f1 steering wheel. Hamilton was almost flawless last year till the point he won his 3rd, then faded for obvious reasons...I'm all for fair competition but there's seldom drivers who really outperform their machinery, which is another debatable point. Drivers like Schumie and Vettel are the exception as you rightly pointed out, but they are/were genuises in their craft.

What about those dominant cars that drivers like Senna drove to championships, who's only yardstick was the other guy in the same team

[Unknown? 0]

When Schumacher, or even more recently Vettel, EVER held such advantage Hamilton/Rosberg have with their car? The ansnwer is - they have not. Besides, both drivers, Michael and Sebastian are extremely good drivers, and it is my contention they made car look sometimes better than it was actually. Mercedes is however miles ahead without much head scratching.

Vettel and red bull creamed the competition for two of the four years. Did he win 13 out of 18 himself or something? The early 2000s Ferraris were so dominant they could afford to delay bringing new cars for the opening flyaway races before debuting the new machine. Are you telling me the 2002 and 2004 Ferraris weren't as dominant as the recent Mercedes? Either you haven't followed the sport that long or you choose to forget.

[Sakae 0]

Vettel and red bull creamed the competition for two of the four years. Did he win 13 out of 18 himself or something? The early 2000s Ferraris were so dominant they could afford to delay bringing new cars for the opening flyaway races before debuting the new machine. Are you telling me the 2002 and 2004 Ferraris weren't as dominant as the recent Mercedes? Either you haven't followed the sport that long or you choose to forget.

If you are missing a point, perhaps it is my mistake not making it clear, or you haven't read it carefully. In a point form:

1. I am not arguing whether other teams were or weren't dominant. This is not a discussion on my side about "other teams were also dominant".

2. This is a discussion about conditions under which teams strived, prospered, or faltered. Not too many, if any cost down measures, no token system, simple times, simpler machines, and most importantly - no FiA police at your doorsteps. Those were competitive times. DDD - you could copy it, something fancy on the nose - you could copy it. Those were times when Michael and Sebastian were really competing.

Try to in a hurry copy homologated PU, and you are for a nose dive. It is complexity which is hard to overcome, it is a lot roadblocks teams are facing when they are trying to perform remedial work, while Mercedes is laughing and collecting trophies - without competition. So, how valuable are those victories?

Try today to work with FiA police counting tokens. Everything is done to clamp down on competition, so, how is competition suppose to catch Mercedes? Those two Mercedes drivers are having good time, much more so, than Schumacher or Vettel ever had. To pretend that RBR prior 2014 was just as much ahead as Mercedes was in 2014 makes no sense to me at all. Sorry. To conclude, it is not the end, but also process how you get there. This is suppose to be a competitive series, but is it?

BTW - my first race and touch with the F1 was a race in South Africa 1974 (Kyalami).

[Emmcee 0]

People forget that majority of schumacjers success (say about 85%) come from him building the team,locating the right and specific Toole who were aces at the field of employment and Schumacher excuted it to perfection and done so for many years on end and done it when other drivers and teams had the chance to develop and catch up but they simply couldn't.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

If you are missing a point, perhaps it is my mistake not making it clear, or you haven't read it carefully. In a point form:

1. I am not arguing whether other teams were or weren't dominant. This is not a discussion on my side about "other teams were also dominant".

2. This is a discussion about conditions under which teams strived, prospered, or faltered. Not too many, if any cost down measures, no token system, simple times, simpler machines, and most importantly - no FiA police at your doorsteps. Those were competitive times. DDD - you could copy it, something fancy on the nose - you could copy it. Those were times when Michael and Sebastian were really competing.

Try to in a hurry copy homologated PU, and you are for a nose dive. It is complexity which is hard to overcome, it is a lot roadblocks teams are facing when they are trying to perform remedial work, while Mercedes is laughing and collecting trophies - without competition. So, how valuable are those victories?

Try today to work with FiA police counting tokens. Everything is done to clamp down on competition, so, how is competition suppose to catch Mercedes? Those two Mercedes drivers are having good time, much more so, than Schumacher or Vettel ever had. To pretend that RBR prior 2014 was just as much ahead as Mercedes was in 2014 makes no sense to me at all. Sorry. To conclude, it is not the end, but also process how you get there. This is suppose to be a competitive series, but is it?

BTW - my first race and touch with the F1 was a race in South Africa 1974 (Kyalami).

First of all, Renault were the ones pushing for these new engine rules. Merc simply did a better job. Look at this year alone, I always saw Merc come out better prepared at testing, great operational skills. In a way it also puts Ferrari's development push in greater perspective

What are the drivers suppose to do. Not race? Even though I hate the regulations there's competition between the 2 drivers Hamilton and Rosberg, it's entertaining...in a way

[radical-one 0]

Lewis Hamilton looks like an idiot wearing that. Since his world title wins he thinks he's better than everyone else. Never liked this person.

+100

[Emmcee 0]

First of all, Renault were the ones pushing for these new engine rules. Merc simply did a better job. Look at this year alone, I always saw Merc come out better prepared at testing, great operational skills. In a way it also puts Ferrari's development push in greater perspective

What are the drivers suppose to do. Not race? Even though I hate the regulations there's competition between the 2 drivers Hamilton and Rosberg, it's entertaining...in a way

Yeah but people can't sit here and say manufacturers like Honda and Renault/tag haven't improved. Paddy Lowe has come out and said that a 2015 spec Ferrari engine is already behind this years Renault and Honda as they have caught up so much and the most under powered cars now would be the Toro Rosso and sauber. Redbulls pace had improved enough to notice and I belejve this is the case.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Yeah but people can't sit here and say manufacturers like Honda and Renault/tag haven't improved. Paddy Lowe has come out and said that a 2015 spec Ferrari engine is already behind this years Renault and Honda as they have caught up so much and the most under powered cars now would be the Toro Rosso and sauber. Redbulls pace had improved enough to notice and I belejve this is the case.

Ferrari is on par with Merc... others not

[Sakae 0]

Yeah but people can't sit here and say manufacturers like Honda and Renault/tag haven't improved. Paddy Lowe has come out and said that a 2015 spec Ferrari engine is already behind this years Renault and Honda as they have caught up so much and the most under powered cars now would be the Toro Rosso and sauber. Redbulls pace had improved enough to notice and I belejve this is the case.

Teams could improve in the past in the matter of 3 months to be on the par with someone. With PU it might take you 3 years. Definitely more than 2. So much we know as the matter in fact.

[Sakae 0]

Ferrari is on par with Merc... others not

How do you know Brad that Ferrari is on the par with Merc? Both drivers might disagree with you on that point. Gap is getting smaller, but still exists. That's what I am reading.

In an article about EU investigation Ecclestone said:

“But if we don’t change the rules, Mercedes could win until 2020 and that worries me,” he admitted.

[Sakae 0]

Actually, letting hybrids in, was not Renault's idea, but, by his own admission, it was certain MM, who had an idea how to attract money flowing in. His only regret is, so he claims, that he mismanaged financial aspects. Having said that, Renault embraced the idea, so much is true. Today they are all on the record that they like it. Honda went step further and declared that without hybrid technology they would not have returned. I am yet to figure out whose idea was to homologate PU in its first year. That was real bummer.

[Emmcee 0]

How do you know Brad that Ferrari is on the par with Merc? Both drivers might disagree with you on that point. Gap is getting smaller, but still exists. That's what I am reading.

In an article about EU investigation Ecclestone said:

Exactly, Mercedes still out in front but Ferrari have closed and I think you might have mis read my post brad, I meant teams running the 2015 spec engine that redbull refused to use for this season is now behind the Renault and Honda. Honda has improved there straight line speed drastically as Bahrain showed, same with Renault/ tag, redbull is much more stronger with there engine package this year. With Ricciardo saying there expecting a Pu upgrade for Canada, if things stay as they are, redbull could have a very solid second half of 2016. The chassis looks beautiful and Once again I beleive it's simply the power unit costing good results.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

On the subject of this thread, I honestly think Hamilton is still learning the ways of life and experimenting. We all do, it's a very good thing. Going throught the different phases of life. And we learn who we are by doing things and making mistakes, akin to a child growing up. Racing has been Hamiltons way of life for the most of his life. I'm glad he's discovering and expressing himself.

Let him be, it's really not affecting us, yet entertaining to watch. We can sit on the couch and spew judgement and hate, or be glad that all these phases in life will accumulate a better older wiser Hamilton...one special driver the world needs.

[Emmcee 0]

So why can't I use my phone while operating a vehicle? We just had double points here over Easter weekend and if I got caught doing what Lewis did. Bang license gone it one hit. Even if you have a clean driving history. That's the point Iam making, he also did burn outs leaving Melbourne GP one year and couldn't understand all the fuss. If I can't do burn outs without running the risk of having my car impounded and worst case scenario if I was a repeat offender, crushed. That's the issues I have with him, everything else I couldn't give a hoot about but when it's breaking a law I could suffer a lot worse consequences for, well something has to be said at the least. He honestly needs a punch in the head but since that won't happen, this will have to do.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

So why can't I use my phone while operating a vehicle? We just had double points here over Easter weekend and if I got caught doing what Lewis did. Bang license gone it one hit. Even if you have a clean driving history. That's the point Iam making, he also did burn outs leaving Melbourne GP one year and couldn't understand all the fuss. If I can't do burn outs without running the risk of having my car impounded and worst case scenario if I was a repeat offender, crushed. That's the issues I have with him, everything else I couldn't give a hoot about but when it's breaking a law I could suffer a lot worse consequences for, well something has to be said at the least. He honestly needs a punch in the head but since that won't happen, this will have to do.

If authorities let him get away with whatever he's done, have your issue with them, hold them accountable. From what you stated here I can't actually see the beef you should have with Hamilton. It does'nt actuallly affect you, you let it affect you.

[radical-one 0]

After Lewis loses again in China to either Nico, Kimi or Seb, we will start to hear his usual whining - again !

i can't wait

[Unknown? 0]

From what you stated here I can't actually see the beef you should have with Hamilton. It does'nt actuallly affect you, you let it affect you.

Exactly my point I've been trying to make recently!

[Emmcee 0]

If authorities let him get away with whatever he's done, have your issue with them, hold them accountable. From what you stated here I can't actually see the beef you should have with Hamilton. It does'nt actuallly affect you, you let it affect you.

So you don't beleive him being a sportsman of his stature that young kids look up to, he should be setting an example? He knows the laws but his outright disrespect and people going " oh let him be" that allows him to put himself on this pedistool.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

So you don't beleive him being a sportsman of his stature that young kids look up to, he should be setting an example? He knows the laws but his outright disrespect and people going " oh let him be" that allows him to put himself on this pedistool.

Rebels change the world, not those who follow the norm.

Hey, I should copyright this!

[Emmcee 0]

You think he is a rebel? A rebel is someone who against the law for the better good not just to be a d!ck, you want to know a real mistaken rebel he was a genius?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

You think he is a rebel? A rebel is someone who against the law for the better good not just to be a d!ck, you want to know a real mistaken rebel he was a genius?

[media]

[/media]

now that guy was a d#ck!

Funny you should show that ad, it's amongts the ad agency creative's favourite

these are real rebels, I would include Hamilton cause he has to endure stick from ppl like you

[BradSpeedMan 6]

The one with the writing on top I had as my wallpaper for years, it's a gift to you

[Emmcee 0]

You have no idea about tupac do you? Do some research and see just how the government assassinated his character towards the public and what he actually did for people, governments portrayed him as a thug as his following got to big and he knew the truth so they were worried people would start listening to the alternative media tupac was talking about instead of towing the line like a good old brainwashed citizen should do. They did the exact same to Michael Jackson. I urge you to research alternative media on these two and I will guarantee it will blow your mind. The governments like you to live in a fish bowl. All it is is one word and it runs everything you've ever known and that's "illuminati". You bet it has its hands in f1 to.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

You have no idea about tupac do you? Do some research and see just how the government assassinated his character towards the public and what he actually did for people, governments portrayed him as a thug as his following got to big and he knew the truth so they were worried people would start listening to the alternative media tupac was talking about instead of towing the line like a good old brainwashed citizen should do. They did the exact same to Michael Jackson. I urge you to research alternative media on these two and I will guarantee it will blow your mind. The governments like you to live in a fish bowl. All it is is one word and it runs everything you've ever known and that's "illuminati". You bet it has its hands in f1 to.

All conspiracies...

i know one thing though... As he lay dying in his car the policeman open his car door and Tupac told him... his last words... f%$k you!