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Horner said this in China. The drivers know what they are getting into. They accept the sponsorship money for years on end. It has to end someday, and for Red Bull drivers other than Vettel, NONE have suvived in F1 after they have been let go from STR or RBR. No other teams have tried to pick up the drivers.

Good luck to Ricci. I suspect he's going to be dealing with an even more inflated I'm so freaking amazing look at me type of team mate.

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Tost fully expects Kvyat to bounce back from his demotion.

What does that mean? MV gets demoted again, or maybe DR, and Kvyat bounces up? Little strange comment, methinks.

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What does that mean? MV gets demoted again, or maybe DR, and Kvyat bounces up? Little strange comment, methinks.

If you go back and read remarks from Tost on Kvyat, you'll find glowing comments. I seems to recall reading how Tost predicted that the 2nd year was always going to be difficult for Kvyat. I think Kvyat just needed more time, unfortunately he punted one of my fav drivers and paid the cost.

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If you go back and read remarks from Tost on Kvyat, you'll find glowing comments. I seems to recall reading how Tost predicted that the 2nd year was always going to be difficult for Kvyat. I think Kvyat just needed more time, unfortunately he punted one of my fav drivers and paid the cost.

I am not a fan of a Russian, far from it, and he pi***d me off in Sochi on the top of it, but now, I think the only bouncing he can do is out of RB organization. His future there is pretty much over. This was very harsh and maybe undeserved.

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I am not a fan of a Russian, far from it, and he pi***d me off in Sochi on the top of it, but now, I think the only bouncing he can do is out of RB organization. His future there is pretty much over. This was very harsh and maybe undeserved.

I think he p**sed most of us off but I think this move was extremely premature

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IMHO, Max is not ready to join Tier 1, and I am hoping this is not going to turn into Sochi 1, Sochi 2, Sochi-n... In Monaco and his dive, I did not look at that as kindly as some of my fellow forumers.

From historical perspective, when was it last time we have seen a similar swap based on (under)performance?

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Seb still holds some clout at Redbull hey?

@ brad

Kvyat beat Ricciardo, lmao you always find new ways to make me giggle.

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I am not a fan of a Russian, far from it, and he pi***d me off in Sochi on the top of it, but now, I think the only bouncing he can do is out of RB organization. His future there is pretty much over. This was very harsh and maybe undeserved.

Can you see the level that this has come at but? There are drivers still around that have done a lot more on more frequent occasions, he is to good to be dropped like this, they disposed of him in almost a Maldonado type way and he is much better than that, like mentioned by someone on here earlier, it was going to happen, this was just the push Redbull needed.

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Kvyat beat Ricciardo, lmao you always find new ways to make me giggle.

That's how I view 2014 episode.

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Big difference 3 points compared to nearly 60 points, that's how I can't see how you see it that tway. Retirements that Ricciardo had could easily cover that 3 point deficit, Vettel and his, pretty big call, that's 2 GP wins and a 5 place atleast, without Ricciardo scoring any, see how much difference there was?

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Big difference 3 points compared to nearly 60 points, that's how I can't see how you see it that tway. Retirements that Ricciardo had could easily cover that 3 point deficit, Vettel and his, pretty big call, that's 2 GP wins and a 5 place atleast, without Ricciardo scoring any, see how much difference there was?

Ok,

Then Alonso did'nt beat Kimi 2005 season, cause taking everything into consideration, Kimi comes up tops that year

BTW, This is what the FIA Drivers standing are for 2015, unless my eyes deceive me?

1 L Hamilton Mercedes 381 2 N Rosberg Mercedes 322 -59 3 S Vettel Ferrari 278 -103 4 K Raikkonen Ferrari 150 -231 5 V Bottas Williams 136 -245 6 F Massa Williams 121 -260 7 D Kvyat Red Bull 95 -286 8 D Ricciardo Red Bull 92 -289 9 S Perez Force India 78 -303 10 N Hulkenberg Force India 58 -323 11 R Grosjean Lotus 51 -330 12 M Verstappen Toro Rosso 49 -332 13 F Nasr Sauber 27 -354 14 P Maldonado Lotus 27 -354 15 C Sainz Toro Rosso 18 -363 16 J Button McLaren 16 -365 17 F Alonso McLaren 11 -370 18 M Ericsson Sauber 9 -372 19 R Merhi Manor 0 -381 20 A Rossi Manor 0 -381 21 W Stevens Manor 0 -381

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No he didn't I've been over this before and I've even posted my working out to show you, raikkonen only had one more dnf than alonso that year, just one and you take that away and the points are still in alonso's favour so I can't see how you can say that. You can say what if kimi didn't have the penalties, well what if alonso didn't retire that one extra time and won that race? You can't have it work one way and not the other mate.

Yeah see what I mean, only three points separated them and Ricciardo almost got them all back in Abu Dhabi. I struggle to see how retirements arnt concidered in this factor, plus Ricciardo lead a race, kvyat didn't and Ricciardo did it by passing on track, by far the more superior driver, 2014 prooved it and last year backed it up in a frustrating year that produced some brilliant driving, you might see that if you weren't so biased on your opinions.

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No he didn't I've been over this before and I've even posted my working out to show you, raikkonen only had one more dnf than alonso that year, just one and you take that away and the points are still in alonso's favour so I can't see how you can say that. You can say what if kimi didn't have the penalties, well what if alonso didn't retire that one extra time and won that race? You can't have it work one way and not the other mate.

WE, and I repeat WE cause I succinctly remember how me and others tally up the points from Kimi vs Alonso 2005 ending up how Kimi actually would've ended up ahead in points, from Kimi not retiring to 2nd places to Alonso to 2nd places, to the point you actually agreed with us. Are you not listening to anything we say Webric???

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Verstappen has now become a target in my radar

+1 besides I never got along nor particularly respected his dad's abtics on track (and off) so there you go, it's probably the first time that I say this, but if Max fails I won't be disappointed

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I honestly don't remember his Dad but I have noticed his current presence in F1. Talking as though his little baby Max is the next greatest thing. Time will tell.

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I remember Jos Verstappen, mostly I remember that awful pitstop when his car was engulfed in flames but that's another story.

This swap wasn't based on Russia, that was probably just the final nail in the coffin of Kvyat's career at Red Bull though. They've been looking for an excuse/way to get Verstappen into the 'top team' and Kvyat handed them one on a platter.

How this will work out now I'm not sure, but I don't see Verstappen being any better than the man he's replacing. He has made some very good moves, that I will grant him, he's also made some stupid errors and been a whiny brat over the radio. To really enjoy a driver on track I personally have to like and respect them, believe me I've tried with Verstappen but the more I see of him, the less I like him. I can't see this swap changing that, in fact it's likely to push me into disliking him more as I think his ego is going to balloon and make him almost unbearable now.

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I remember Jos Verstappen, mostly I remember that awful pitstop when his car was engulfed in flames but that's another story.

This swap wasn't based on Russia, that was probably just the final nail in the coffin of Kvyat's career at Red Bull though. They've been looking for an excuse/way to get Verstappen into the 'top team' and Kvyat handed them one on a platter.

How this will work out now I'm not sure, but I don't see Verstappen being any better than the man he's replacing. He has made some very good moves, that I will grant him, he's also made some stupid errors and been a whiny brat over the radio. To really enjoy a driver on track I personally have to like and respect them, believe me I've tried with Verstappen but the more I see of him, the less I like him. I can't see this swap changing that, in fact it's likely to push me into disliking him more as I think his ego is going to balloon and make him almost unbearable now.

Nicely summed up. I agree

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On the swap...

Would it be too harsh to characterize this as another of Max's tantrums, demanding to be in the big team now or else he'll quit on the program that bankrolled his immediate rise to F1?

Would it be too spiteful to hope so desperately to see Ricciardo absolutely dispense of him, and to see Kvyat and Sainz in STRs finish ahead of him in his Red Bull?

I suspect Max Verstappen will be a good reason to delay promotion of young prospects. Even if their driving talent is ready (and, arguably, Max's isn't—he's a big buffoon as much as he's a brilliant prospect, and that's getting masked by the fact today's F1 cars are much more forgiving than they used to be), the damage you can do to your reputation while young is so immense. It won't be fair to hold Max accountable when he's 30 for how he acted at 18—but because his actions at 18 were our public knowledge, we still will. I think this mess of a situation will make other teams hesitant to move prospects up too soon, if only to get them some time to mature in all the aspects of being an F1 driver, which go well beyond just plugging into the car and driving it.

And a shame on Red Bull and Helmut Marko, in my opinion, for categorizing this as a Kvyat problem. Kvyat messed the heck up in Sochi; he also has the only podium for Red Bull this year. Last year, head-to-head with Ricciardo, in races both drivers finished, Kvyat finished ahead of Ricciardo 7 times, and Ricciardo ahead of Kvyat 6 times. To come out and say it's Kvyat's fault for not being able to "withstand pressure" when, really, I think everyone knows it is Verstappen's fault for being unable to cooperate with the fact the entire universe of F1 doesn't revolve around him, is just foolish. I don't expect a team to come out to the press and say, "Yes, we made this change because the future of our team is a baby." But I also don't understand why a team comes out and acts like they were forced to promote Verstappen because Kvyat was just so bad, when Kvyat really wasn't anything close to that.

But managing a team has never been something Helmut Marko has been good at. Marko once slammed Scott Speed into a wall as punishment for passing Tonio Liuzzi on an in-lap, messing up who got what tires. Speed was not very good in F1 and deserved to be fired—but no one in any workplace deserves to be battered by their boss. EDIT: That might have been Franz Tost, actually.

It'd give me great joy to see this fail. Send Kvyat to Ferrari to destroy Red Bull.

On Jos...

...because he came up. Jos was convicted in for, in 1998, fracturing a man's skull at a karting track because he (Jos) is a complete loser who cannot accept things not going his way. He's also been able to use his wealth, slick lawyering, and general bias against women to escape criminal convictions for two domestic assaults (years apart and against different victims), including one where he tried to run over his girlfriend with a car (he eventually bought that girlfriend back and had a kid with her). He was convicted for violating a restraining order in the first case and for sending threatening text messages.

The Verstappens are not people anyone should feel warm about.

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On the swap...

Would it be too harsh to characterize this as another of Max's tantrums, demanding to be in the big team now or else he'll quit on the program that bankrolled his immediate rise to F1?

Would it be too spiteful to hope so desperately to see Ricciardo absolutely dispense of him, and to see Kvyat and Sainz in STRs finish ahead of him in his Red Bull?

I suspect Max Verstappen will be a good reason to delay promotion of young prospects. Even if their driving talent is ready (and, arguably, Max's isn't—he's a big buffoon as much as he's a brilliant prospect, and that's getting masked by the fact today's F1 cars are much more forgiving than they used to be), the damage you can do to your reputation while young is so immense. It won't be fair to hold Max accountable when he's 30 for how he acted at 18—but because his actions at 18 were our public knowledge, we still will. I think this mess of a situation will make other teams hesitant to move prospects up too soon, if only to get them some time to mature in all the aspects of being an F1 driver, which go well beyond just plugging into the car and driving it.

And a shame on Red Bull and Helmut Marko, in my opinion, for categorizing this as a Kvyat problem. Kvyat messed the heck up in Sochi; he also has the only podium for Red Bull this year. Last year, head-to-head with Ricciardo, in races both drivers finished, Kvyat finished ahead of Ricciardo 7 times, and Ricciardo ahead of Kvyat 6 times. To come out and say it's Kvyat's fault for not being able to "withstand pressure" when, really, I think everyone knows it is Verstappen's fault for being unable to cooperate with the fact the entire universe of F1 doesn't revolve around him, is just foolish. I don't expect a team to come out to the press and say, "Yes, we made this change because the future of our team is a baby." But I also don't understand why a team comes out and acts like they were forced to promote Verstappen because Kvyat was just so bad, when Kvyat really wasn't anything close to that.

But managing a team has never been something Helmut Marko has been good at. Marko once slammed Scott Speed into a wall as punishment for passing Tonio Liuzzi on an in-lap, messing up who got what tires. Speed was not very good in F1 and deserved to be fired—but no one in any workplace deserves to be battered by their boss. EDIT: That might have been Franz Tost, actually.

It'd give me great joy to see this fail. Send Kvyat to Ferrari to destroy Red Bull.

On Jos...

...because he came up. Jos was convicted in for, in 1998, fracturing a man's skull at a karting track because he (Jos) is a complete loser who cannot accept things not going his way. He's also been able to use his wealth, slick lawyering, and general bias against women to escape criminal convictions for two domestic assaults (years apart and against different victims), including one where he tried to run over his girlfriend with a car (he eventually bought that girlfriend back and had a kid with her). He was convicted for violating a restraining order in the first case and for sending threatening text messages.

The Verstappens are not people anyone should feel warm about.

Nicely summed up. I agree

too much agreeing going on here from my side, but anyway

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Max is far more immature and arrogant than kvyat. I am sure he would make life difficult for the front runners by poking his car into the smallest of gaps or the gaps that doesnt exist.

Max being targeted by the bigger teams is the concern behind this swap. And kvyat helped their cause.

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On the swap...

Would it be too harsh to characterize this as another of Max's tantrums, demanding to be in the big team now or else he'll quit on the program that bankrolled his immediate rise to F1?

Would it be too spiteful to hope so desperately to see Ricciardo absolutely dispense of him, and to see Kvyat and Sainz in STRs finish ahead of him in his Red Bull?

I suspect Max Verstappen will be a good reason to delay promotion of young prospects. Even if their driving talent is ready (and, arguably, Max's isn't—he's a big buffoon as much as he's a brilliant prospect, and that's getting masked by the fact today's F1 cars are much more forgiving than they used to be), the damage you can do to your reputation while young is so immense. It won't be fair to hold Max accountable when he's 30 for how he acted at 18—but because his actions at 18 were our public knowledge, we still will. I think this mess of a situation will make other teams hesitant to move prospects up too soon, if only to get them some time to mature in all the aspects of being an F1 driver, which go well beyond just plugging into the car and driving it.

And a shame on Red Bull and Helmut Marko, in my opinion, for categorizing this as a Kvyat problem. Kvyat messed the heck up in Sochi; he also has the only podium for Red Bull this year. Last year, head-to-head with Ricciardo, in races both drivers finished, Kvyat finished ahead of Ricciardo 7 times, and Ricciardo ahead of Kvyat 6 times. To come out and say it's Kvyat's fault for not being able to "withstand pressure" when, really, I think everyone knows it is Verstappen's fault for being unable to cooperate with the fact the entire universe of F1 doesn't revolve around him, is just foolish. I don't expect a team to come out to the press and say, "Yes, we made this change because the future of our team is a baby." But I also don't understand why a team comes out and acts like they were forced to promote Verstappen because Kvyat was just so bad, when Kvyat really wasn't anything close to that.

But managing a team has never been something Helmut Marko has been good at. Marko once slammed Scott Speed into a wall as punishment for passing Tonio Liuzzi on an in-lap, messing up who got what tires. Speed was not very good in F1 and deserved to be fired—but no one in any workplace deserves to be battered by their boss. EDIT: That might have been Franz Tost, actually.

It'd give me great joy to see this fail. Send Kvyat to Ferrari to destroy Red Bull.

On Jos...

...because he came up. Jos was convicted in for, in 1998, fracturing a man's skull at a karting track because he (Jos) is a complete loser who cannot accept things not going his way. He's also been able to use his wealth, slick lawyering, and general bias against women to escape criminal convictions for two domestic assaults (years apart and against different victims), including one where he tried to run over his girlfriend with a car (he eventually bought that girlfriend back and had a kid with her). He was convicted for violating a restraining order in the first case and for sending threatening text messages.

The Verstappens are not people anyone should feel warm about.

wow this is quite a post, excellent arguments excellently articulated

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wow this is quite a post, excellent arguments excellently articulated

He's done that thru the years. Very mature head for his age, thats why it was a pleasure voting for him as a moderator

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On the swap...

Would it be too harsh to characterize this as another of Max's tantrums, demanding to be in the big team now or else he'll quit on the program that bankrolled his immediate rise to F1?

Would it be too spiteful to hope so desperately to see Ricciardo absolutely dispense of him, and to see Kvyat and Sainz in STRs finish ahead of him in his Red Bull?

I suspect Max Verstappen will be a good reason to delay promotion of young prospects. Even if their driving talent is ready (and, arguably, Max's isn't—he's a big buffoon as much as he's a brilliant prospect, and that's getting masked by the fact today's F1 cars are much more forgiving than they used to be), the damage you can do to your reputation while young is so immense. It won't be fair to hold Max accountable when he's 30 for how he acted at 18—but because his actions at 18 were our public knowledge, we still will. I think this mess of a situation will make other teams hesitant to move prospects up too soon, if only to get them some time to mature in all the aspects of being an F1 driver, which go well beyond just plugging into the car and driving it.

And a shame on Red Bull and Helmut Marko, in my opinion, for categorizing this as a Kvyat problem. Kvyat messed the heck up in Sochi; he also has the only podium for Red Bull this year. Last year, head-to-head with Ricciardo, in races both drivers finished, Kvyat finished ahead of Ricciardo 7 times, and Ricciardo ahead of Kvyat 6 times. To come out and say it's Kvyat's fault for not being able to "withstand pressure" when, really, I think everyone knows it is Verstappen's fault for being unable to cooperate with the fact the entire universe of F1 doesn't revolve around him, is just foolish. I don't expect a team to come out to the press and say, "Yes, we made this change because the future of our team is a baby." But I also don't understand why a team comes out and acts like they were forced to promote Verstappen because Kvyat was just so bad, when Kvyat really wasn't anything close to that.

But managing a team has never been something Helmut Marko has been good at. Marko once slammed Scott Speed into a wall as punishment for passing Tonio Liuzzi on an in-lap, messing up who got what tires. Speed was not very good in F1 and deserved to be fired—but no one in any workplace deserves to be battered by their boss. EDIT: That might have been Franz Tost, actually.

It'd give me great joy to see this fail. Send Kvyat to Ferrari to destroy Red Bull.

On Jos...

...because he came up. Jos was convicted in for, in 1998, fracturing a man's skull at a karting track because he (Jos) is a complete loser who cannot accept things not going his way. He's also been able to use his wealth, slick lawyering, and general bias against women to escape criminal convictions for two domestic assaults (years apart and against different victims), including one where he tried to run over his girlfriend with a car (he eventually bought that girlfriend back and had a kid with her). He was convicted for violating a restraining order in the first case and for sending threatening text messages.

The Verstappens are not people anyone should feel warm about.

DR in this season is probably in a greater danger than MV with respect to his standing. Whatever will happen, MV will be excused, unless he is planning to ram his teammate frequently. DR is expected to come on the top comes year-end, and I don't mean disrespect, but nothing is certain. Things do happen, and Max will go all out without any mental barrier in the front of him.

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