McLaren Honda Doomed To Fail

[Emmcee 0]

We could be looking at it all wrong. Do you think they would still have a major sponsor if they kept using Mercedes engines instead of switching to Honda and how successful Mercedes have been? That would have a major influence IMO, honda would have to start wining before a sponsor will come on board. Or even supply more teams, it would greater there chances of good results.

[Sakae 0]

Quote

McLaren's statement:

“He wanted to build again a winning team and fully focus on making the McLaren Formula 1 car competitive, with the aim of winning world championships in coming years. Regrettably, we have not been able to find common ground with Jost with regard to what is and will be needed to make the team successful again.

Jost Capito was kicked out from McLaren based on irreconcilable difference? What they are really saying that Capito, after four very successful years with VW Motorsport, and six months with McLaren is less qualified to built a team up, than a marketing guy from US who came on board yesterday. Lord help us, if Liberty shall adopt similar attitude, which is not entirely impossible.

Is it however rather possible, that the truth of the matter is, that McLaren actually run out of money (to keep Jost on payroll), and they are in self denial phase?

[Sakae 0]

Title of this thread might need either change, or a new thread should be started. People on the technical forum are predicting surprises (in good sense) this year from Honda. If so, it might be interesting to see and appreciate four teams in the fight. For some reason which even I cannot explain to myself, I am ignoring FI; hopefully not to my peril. In random sequence listed, Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes and RBR I would expect to stay on frontline of the grid, at least early in the season. 

[Master of his game 0]

On 2/12/2017 at 9:21 AM, Sakae said:

Title of this thread might need either change, or a new thread should be started. People on the technical forum are predicting surprises (in good sense) this year from Honda. If so, it might be interesting to see and appreciate four teams in the fight. For some reason which even I cannot explain to myself, I am ignoring FI; hopefully not to my peril. In random sequence listed, Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes and RBR I would expect to stay on frontline of the grid, at least early in the season. 

Good to hear . If thats the case we need a new thread . But cant really believe them untill we see results on track. Remember they sais they would win races from first year. And we know how that turned out .Lol

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

On 12/2/2017 at 9:21 AM, Sakae said:

Title of this thread might need either change, or a new thread should be started. People on the technical forum are predicting surprises (in good sense) this year from Honda. If so, it might be interesting to see and appreciate four teams in the fight. For some reason which even I cannot explain to myself, I am ignoring FI; hopefully not to my peril. In random sequence listed, Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes and RBR I would expect to stay on frontline of the grid, at least early in the season. 

all the Italian websites (Autosprint, F1 Analisi Tecnica, etc) are saying that Ferrari is in deep trouble and that they plan a B version of their 2017 car to be unveiled sometimes around halfway through the season, it seems that they are not doing great on the aero front. I also don't think that McLaren will be shining, with much more downforce they will be on full power for longer and need more bhps and stroner engines, not Honda's USP. Apparently someone is already saying that good old Mateschit has said that he wants both the WDC and WCC or he'll throw a tantrum, I suppose that we'll have to witness to another season with an RBR flauting the rules  

[Sakae 0]

Publius, yours news sound like something I would have expected Jeremiah to deliver, but we have to hope, don't we? It wouldn't be first time Italian media went slightly overboard with pre-season pessimism, so I take it it's the usual panic level before testing starts. Rosberg is reported to believe, that Seb will be approached (among others) by Mercedes for 2018 drive. For whatever its worth, in contrast, I think he might choose retirement too, if 2017 pans badly and without seeing lights at the end of tunnel. 

FiA suddenly decided to re-address legality of tricks deployed by some front teams. All within next two weeks. I don't expect miracles, but a blow or two to the arrogance of some people would sit well with me.

McLaren - well, I do not know about them, but I read some (rather plausible) comments from ex-Honda F1 engineer, and he said Honda has closed gap to Merc quite significantly. Mind you, not entirely, but they are supposedly within a shooting distance. With regard to McLaren job - no one knows about effectiveness of new aero, but if they are too far behind,  it will not be just Honda who will need to improve. That's perception before testing begins.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

3 hours ago, Sakae said:

Publius, yours news sound like something I would have expected Jeremiah to deliver, but we have to hope, don't we? It wouldn't be first time Italian media went slightly overboard with pre-season pessimism, so I take it it's the usual panic level before testing starts. 

they are usually very bullish before the season starts, then they say that next year it will be better... this time they are already saying that things don't look good

http://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2017/02/f1-2017-la-ferrari-sta-rivedendo-il.html

 

 

[Sakae 0]

Thanks, Publius. Now we will have to wait (from external noises) whose fault it is that Alonso and Allison were fired. With anticipated difficulties in overtaking, Sergio might be out of his skin before even first race ends. I feel sorry for drivers, if news are really as bad as it sounds. (Google translation).

[Emmcee 0]

How was alonso fired when they offered him an extension through to 2019. Why do people ignore that fact? Is it because Vettel fans feel he was a "plan b" option after alonso turned them down.

[Sakae 0]

While I am not sure why we have to repeatedly return to this, but if you insist:

Opinion

Today I don't really care how face saving PR was or is being manipulated, but fact is, he, like Prost in the past, is gone from Maranello. There was more than one observer to witness the blow up incident during meeting between Mattiacci and Alonso basted with expletives in Japan, when this driver probably realized he has lost his leverage and he was out. That seems to be the turning point. However I do agree that we do not know full story. Once I've tried to compile a time-line related to Vettel's switch based on internet available interviews, and I have encountered several  contradictions and timing conflicts when and who ultimately persuaded Vettel to switch teams. Vettel was hosted by LdM in his private home, so much we know, Seb dealt with Mattiacci, but we also heard that it was ultimately Marchionne who has placed a call to him. At the end no one is owing us an explanation, and it is what it is. Sabine Kehm would know, but she is not talking.

[maure 1]

The word "fired" implies a great deal, most (all?) of which is not there.

Whatever happened at Ferrari, firing Alonso is among the least likely possibility. One has but to look at the results... before and since. If Ferrari had a standard that required firing Alonso, they would simply have no drivers for next season.

[Emmcee 0]

Alonso left as he felt he would rather struggle at mclaren trying to do something there than struggling again at Ferrari. I love how they step right over it and claim he was fired. Seb was plan b. Your last line sums it all up nicely and simply by just applying common sense.

[Sakae 0]

Consensus are, admittedly not accepted by everyone, that Alonso was let go due to his public criticism, at late with increasing frequency and crudeness, of Ferrari, and not due to his driving, thus comparison before and after is not exactly apt explanation. He has done it to Honda as well, however thus far he got away with it. 

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Alonso was fired, his ego got the better of him

[Master of his game 0]

Yeah yeah Alonso was fired. Good for Ferrari. They are on the right path now. Now that there is no influence from Alonso on the cars, Ferrari would dominate the following years.

[Sakae 0]

Alonso was with Ferrari five years, and out of those four his cars design were catering to his whims under parameters of established technology and competitive rules. Must be then all Vettel's fault that Ferrari has "won" all those titles while Fernando had the team under his foot while he was at Maranello.

[Emmcee 0]

If you put some effort into your searching it's not hard to find stories that make "alonso got fired" claims total bogus. Ohh look, here's one now.

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/05/08/alonso-i-said-no-to-ferrari-offer-to-stay-until-2019/

[Emmcee 0]

40 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Alonso was with Ferrari five years, and out of those four his cars design were catering to his whims under parameters of established technology and competitive rules. Must be then all Vettel's fault that Ferrari has "won" all those titles while Fernando had the team under his foot while he was at Maranello.

Sakae, 3 out of those 5 seasons he finished second in the championship, once third and the other 5th I beleive. Something Seb has yet to achieve. This is sebs third season now at Ferrari, means he would have to finish second in the championship atleast in the next 3 years to even have a sniff at what alonso achieved at Ferrari. Not to mention last season and the season before would've had to have seen Vettel finish 3-5th in championship. Yeah alonso's Ferrari was such a dog and Seb is doing a better job even though he is miles behind comparing results to alonso but funny how that's over looked.

[Master of his game 0]

Yeah yeah , Fernando is very poor in car development. Now that he is not at Ferrari vettel and kimi would develop a car that is going to dominate from this year. Soon Fernando will be kicked out from Mclaren for his poor car development skills.

[Sakae 0]

1 hour ago, Emmcee said:

If you put some effort into your searching it's not hard to find stories that make "alonso got fired" claims total bogus. Ohh look, here's one now.

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/05/08/alonso-i-said-no-to-ferrari-offer-to-stay-until-2019/

This proves really nothing. Time line is missing. One needs to make distinction between intent and rhetoric accompanying developments under normal circumstances, and an ignition point, when all blows up into smithereens due to accumulated strain. My interpretation of it all is, that Alonso p***d both, Mattiacci and  Marcionne one too many time, and he was out. One does not call a man like Mattiacci SOB in public arena for all to see (in Japan), and gets as a reward offer to stay for another five years. Sorry, but no can do!

[Sakae 0]

46 minutes ago, Emmcee said:

Sakae, 3 out of those 5 seasons he finished second in the championship, once third and the other 5th I beleive. Something Seb has yet to achieve. This is sebs third season now at Ferrari, means he would have to finish second in the championship atleast in the next 3 years to even have a sniff at what alonso achieved at Ferrari. Not to mention last season and the season before would've had to have seen Vettel finish 3-5th in championship. Yeah alonso's Ferrari was such a dog and Seb is doing a better job even though he is miles behind comparing results to alonso but funny how that's over looked.

You have no sense of proportions at all, or any reality based perception of what actually went down after 2013 and how massive that change was in engineering terms. You are comparing pre-hybrids era with mess after 2013? Give me a break. I am not going to discuss such nonsense again and again. Fact is, when there was some competition left in the series, he, like Hamilton, both got whacked by RB and Vettel. Check the records. That's good enough for me.

[Sakae 0]

43 minutes ago, Master of his game said:

Yeah yeah , Fernando is very poor in car development. Now that he is not at Ferrari vettel and kimi would develop a car that is going to dominate from this year. Soon Fernando will be kicked out from Mclaren for his poor car development skills.

From former inside sources we know today that car was designed to suit Alonso's driving preferences, and Kimi was merely a collateral damage, since the same design did not suit him. That has changed now. We also know from sources that Vettel's feedback is usually of value, if anybody wants to actually hear it, but we also know, that Arrivabene and Marchionne have different ideas, and neither Vettel or Kimi are participating currently in car development in any significant way, whether they want to or not.

[Emmcee 0]

I have proportion, I know your so biased it's not funny. Why doesn't it proove nothing? It proves your biased approach to anything that may dent your super hero's image in your eyes. Truth is mate, Vettel isn't as good as you think he is and some of these rediculous accidents he has caused in his career let alone last season. Proves how biased you are when all you carry on about is verstappens move on him in Brazil. But some how forget the incident where he almost ran Ricciardo of the road in Mexico just a few weeks prior. Why is that? 

[Quiet One 15]

People still believing that Alonso is somehow detrimental for his teams and/or F1 in general in 2017. Bless their cottons socks.

[Master of his game 0]

52 minutes ago, Sakae said:

From former inside sources we know today that car was designed to suit Alonso's driving preferences, and Kimi was merely a collateral damage, since the same design did not suit him. That has changed now. We also know from sources that Vettel's feedback is usually of value, if anybody wants to actually hear it, but we also know, that Arrivabene and Marchionne have different ideas, and neither Vettel or Kimi are participating currently in car development in any significant way, whether they want to or not.

Why is that? How are the planning to improve the car  if they are not ready to listen to drivers feedback? How do you know vettel and kimi aren't involved in car s development ? 

As far as I could recollect kimi is heavily involved in car development.