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KoolMonkey

So dive bombing is now a legit move!?

87 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Emmcee said:

Are you reading my posts correctly? I never said that but you do have to turn in, it's simple as if your teammate is there well tuff. You have to turn in otherwise your of the track. It's sort of like playing chicken, you have to not back out but if the other driver thinks the same then that's a collision. Vettel also being the driver he is, even if he knew contact was going to happen do you really think he would back out? With the chance he could gain a position? No I think not.

Oh....I hate to argue....but you give me so much to work with........

1. First, you do sort of need to make sure you don't hit your teammate (granted, both Vettel and Rosberg have a repeat history of not doing this).

2. There is a lot of space to Vettel's left (see Scipio's photo). Giving an extra 6 inches would not have resulted him leaving the asphalt. May have resulted in Kimi being ahead of him though.

3. So..."playing chicken" with your teammate on turn one? This is a good idea?

4. Your last three sentences summarizes my criticism of Vettel entirely.  

 

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7 hours ago, Ruslan said:

Well...looking at the picture, I see only one car on his inside on the track !!! Verstappen is pretty much tucked up almost completely on the curve. Looks to me like Vettel did not leave enough room.

what I see is a car on the inside of Raikkonen preventing him to take the line that they usually take at that turn and in turn meaning that Vettel closes in on Kimi. My point is that Vettel couldn't know that this was happening, he left enough room for Kimi's car, with hindsight we know that it would have been wise to leave more room, but that's the point "with hindsight". What Vettel did was what any reasonable driver would have done, going wider there would have meant losing his position and I don't see any reason why he had to give his position to Kimi, he was clear ahead, he had a much better start that the two cars in front of him , he cleared them and left room for one of them to try a move on the inside (and only one of them because (i) the other was too far behind and (ii) there was no room for 3 cars abrest there, I don't recall every seeing 3 cars side by side at La Source), asking more of him IMHO means asking him not to race

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I must say I've watched and watched this over and over again and I've changed my view.

 verstappen didn't divebomb, he was already half up the inside of kimi, kimi gave max enough space.

the blame I think after watching it over and over is Vettel. Same sort of thing as China, I don't beleive Vettel for one second saying he couldn't see him, yeah maybe when they touched but he would've seen max go up the inside before the braking zone so he would've had some idea max was in the vacinity.

 

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8 hours ago, Ruslan said:

Oh....I hate to argue....but you give me so much to work with........

1. First, you do sort of need to make sure you don't hit your teammate (granted, both Vettel and Rosberg have a repeat history of not doing this).

2. There is a lot of space to Vettel's left (see Scipio's photo). Giving an extra 6 inches would not have resulted him leaving the asphalt. May have resulted in Kimi being ahead of him though.

3. So..."playing chicken" with your teammate on turn one? This is a good idea?

4. Your last three sentences summarizes my criticism of Vettel entirely.  

 

Let me elaborate as it's obvious I can't get my point across without a detailed explanation. When someone comes up the inside and you give them room, you not going to drive of the circuit to let them by are you? No, so at some point you have to turn in reguardless and the driver with more experience knows when the right time to turn in is. It's impossible to always get it right as where human and make mistakes but when it comes to a driver making an attempt to pass wether it by your teammate or not, it's a game of chicken literally to see who will back of first and yield there space. If both drivers don't then a collision happens. But after watching the clip many times I beleive its Vettel faults more than anyone else's but it beleive it's a mistake as he didn't realise how much room kimi gave max. Now do you see my point? If no one turns in then every single overtaking move would result in the defending car going of circuit. Yeah you do have to avoid hitting your teammate more so than others but if it comes to a point your fighting for the same position and you make contact and you honestly think your not in the wrong by doing the move "textbook" sort of style, does it make any difference? You still have to turn in don't you? Otherwise why not call yourself the number 2 driver and save the media and save yourself from denying the facts. Got to fight for every inch.

Edited by Emmcee

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43 minutes ago, Emmcee said:

I must say I've watched and watched this over and over again and I've changed my view.

 verstappen didn't divebomb, he was already half up the inside of kimi, kimi gave max enough space.

the blame I think after watching it over and over is Vettel. Same sort of thing as China, I don't beleive Vettel for one second saying he couldn't see him, yeah maybe when they touched but he would've seen max go up the inside before the braking zone so he would've had some idea max was in the vacinity.

 

As per Publius point, Vettel left enough space for Kimi, not some maniac who, after he lost places, did an elaborate move that could only end in disaster going for a gap at a turn which did'nt exist!

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If you look at Vettel's onboard shot, he could not possibly have known that the maniac would push his way in there, so he only left space for Kimi

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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1 hour ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

what I see is a car on the inside of Raikkonen preventing him to take the line that they usually take at that turn and in turn meaning that Vettel closes in on Kimi. My point is that Vettel couldn't know that this was happening, he left enough room for Kimi's car, with hindsight we know that it would have been wise to leave more room, but that's the point "with hindsight". What Vettel did was what any reasonable driver would have done, going wider there would have meant losing his position and I don't see any reason why he had to give his position to Kimi, he was clear ahead, he had a much better start that the two cars in front of him , he cleared them and left room for one of them to try a move on the inside (and only one of them because (i) the other was too far behind and (ii) there was no room for 3 cars abrest there, I don't recall every seeing 3 cars side by side at La Source), asking more of him IMHO means asking him not to race

Excellent review, yet there is no point to argue in here. Haters will hate, and as clearly demonstrated in here, no amount of rational explanation will sway them to change their minds. So much is obvious. Perusing various websites, and scanning comments after Spa, I feel overwhelmed how much (irrational) behavior there is, in some cases exceeding limits of acceptance. Makes one wonder whether life outside forums would be perhaps a better choice how to enjoy the sport. FiA, in person of Whiting, has a lot to answer after the last race.

Edited by Sakae

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4 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Excellent review, yet there is no point to argue in here. Haters will hate, and as clearly demonstrated in here, no amount of rational explanation will sway them to change their minds. So much is obvious. Perusing various websites, and scanning comments after Spa, I feel overwhelmed how much (irrational) behavior there is, in some cases exceeding limits of acceptance. Makes one wonder whether life outside forums would be perhaps a better choice how to enjoy the sport. FiA, in person of Whiting, has a lot to answer after the last race.

As per your post in the Ferrari 2016 thread, this from Vettel sums it up to me...

"To speak of Max, just looking at it now was a very bold move trying to recover those two places in one corner diving down the inside, that obviously was the reason why Kimi couldn't turn in and follow the lead that I was dictating as the leading car of that group.

"With hindsight it's easy, I turn in later or go wider and only those two are making contact and I get away with it. The problem is that you can't fit three cars in that corner and the inside one of these able to trigger trouble on the outside which Kimi and myself suffered from."

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2 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

As per your post in the Ferrari 2016 thread, this from Vettel sums it up to me...

"To speak of Max, just looking at it now was a very bold move trying to recover those two places in one corner diving down the inside, that obviously was the reason why Kimi couldn't turn in and follow the lead that I was dictating as the leading car of that group.

"With hindsight it's easy, I turn in later or go wider and only those two are making contact and I get away with it. The problem is that you can't fit three cars in that corner and the inside one of these able to trigger trouble on the outside which Kimi and myself suffered from."

Yes, it does. Publius provided us with an excellent assessment of the incident, yet who was convinced and changed their mind? I haven't even bother; after all, I would not be able to muster better defense of Vettel, than Publius has done. Makes you wonder whether forum serves as a platform for debating society world wide, or it is a platform for irrational rants against hated persons. If you set aside all arguments about incident anatomy, and try to visualize hypothetical situation in which any other driver (bar Vettel) would be sitting in that car #5, and Vettel in RB, then tell me what kind of responses we would be exposed to. I am not commenting about reaction of girls in puberty, but seasoned observers of the sport. What a shameful day it was. Fanaticism is really destructive.  

Edited by Sakae

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1 hour ago, Emmcee said:

I don't beleive Vettel for one second saying he couldn't see him, yeah maybe when they touched but he would've seen max go up the inside before the braking zone so he would've had some idea max was in the vacinity.

 

you have raced karts so we can discuss this in detail as you know what we're talking about. In a Kart had he turned his head right he could have seen the front (or the shadow) of Verstappen's car, with a pre-1994 car he could have made a similar movement with his head and get a glimpse of what was happening (depending of his height and on the age of the car, I think that Vettel is tall enough to do that). Wearing a HANS and with a car designed to prevent what happened to good old Karl Wendlinger at Monaco in 1994 it's technically impossible, because the HANS prevents you from making that movement and the cars nowadays have you sitting lower and the side protections are higher so side view is severly limited when compared to "the good old days". 

This situiation reminds once when I was young and with other drivers I was offered to do a few laps on a Porsche 962, Riccardo Patrese was there sort of tutoring us young (hopeless?) hopefuls and the first thing that he told us (we were all racing single seaters) was "driving a group C car is like driving a very fast coffin with plenty of fuel on board, you sit very low, have a limited view of what is happening in front of you and have no side view whatsoever (so be VERY CAREFUL)": today's cars are rather similar in that respect (the biggest differences are that modern F1 cars have excellent brakes, the 962's were awful, don't turn into a firebomb anytime you have an accident and in the event of a crash chanes are that you're legs will be just fine).

Some could argue that Vettel could have kept a wide line anyway, "just in case", to which I have a very straightforward question: let's put aside for a second the rules and how they have been implemented so far, can anyone post a picture of 3 cars abrest at La Source? let's take it from there, I don't recall ever having witnessed 3 cars taking that turn side by side without crashing, but if someone proves me wrong we'll take it from there. Notwisthstanding the fact that Vettel could not see what was happening behind the right hand side of hs car remains

Edited by Publius Cornelius Scipio

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51 minutes ago, Sakae said:

thanks for that article, there are some extracts that I'd like to highlight

Quote

“The issue is the FIA, because it looks like he's got protection,” Villeneuve told Motorsport.com. “They want him to be a star.

"Look in Germany. He weaved on the straight, so Nico [Rosberg] missed his braking [point]. They go a bit wide – Nico gets a penalty. For something even less than… and it wasn't even his fault.

“Twenty years ago someone would have put him in a tree.”

I'm glad that Jacques made those comments, on the one hand because I think that it is necessary that someone told these very simple truths, on the other because these are points that I raised myself B) :D

Jacques and I raced in the same era, in the same championship (of course he had a better car and all the rest and while I got back to studying law he progressed to become WDC, I know that) and he's a very honest chap, he says what he believes.

I think that it's clear beyond any doubt that with Heineken Verstappen has become untouchable, even before he was great news for F1 as a whole. We have had similar situations in the past, that's not what bothers me, what bothers me is that no one is willing to say openly that there is one set of rules for Verstappen (and Hamilton) and one for all the rest, when the one who was taking advantage of this FIA attiìtude was Micheal Schumacher we were all open about it, why nowadays so many people are becoming shy? 

The penalties inficled on Rosberg are at very best laughable, if they punished Rosberg (and Vettel at Silversone, and many others that I can't remember now) they had to punish Verstappen for taking a punt at the first corner, I don't agree with such a rule but it they apply this rule to Rosberg, Vettel and others then they have to apply it also to Verstappen. And, again, we must be honest about this.

"Twenty years ago someone would have put him in a tree": there is nothing more to say about this, it's plain survival tactics, Verstappen is a real danger to other drivers, IMHO it's entirely fair that the other drivers limit their risk by putting him in a tree, hopefully he won't get bruised (I'm not talking sending him into the trees at Kemmel, just hit him on a slow corner, no one would get hurt if not his pride and arrogance), but the other drivers are prevented from ensuring their safety because they know that if they touch him they're out, and that's wrong

Edited by Publius Cornelius Scipio

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The same series..? I've watched him in Atlantic series, wouldn't you be then...eh, never-mind.

What bothers me, that Verstappen, in his youthful ignorant innocence admitted to media, that his moves on Raikonnen, danger as they were, were premeditated as payback (for T1 incident, which I put to his doorstep without reservation), yet FiA in response remains silent. Vettel received 2 penalty points this year, when it was alleged that he run Massa off the track, which Vettel was refuting on basis there was no intent, but based on circumstantial conditions, but that did not helped to get him points removed, and now this... If I didn't like some people in FiA, I like them today even less. They operate on flexible law basis practiced in China.

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3 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

If you look at Vettel's onboard shot, he could not possibly have known that the maniac would push his way in there, so he only left space for Kimi

Nah Vettel would've seen him prior to the breaking zone and would've known what was going to happen. He could've seen him lined up for the braking zone, I think that's incorrect to say he couldn't and if Vettel honesty didn't check his mirrors or even have a glance to the right of him before setting up to brake for the turn, there he needs to have a look at himself. Kimi would've seen max coming down the inside also and left room for max so kimi wouldn't have even been watching the outside so Vettel simply  turned into kimi IMO and caused a chain reaction like in China.  Can guarantee of Vettel was on the inside and it was max that was on the outside and the collision happened it would still be Max's fault. Iam not standing up for verstappen as I agree he is to aggressive. But he had a fair shot of the inside against kimi, it wasn't a divebomb like Villeneuve at Jerez in 97, it wasn't a divebomb like hill and Adelaide in 94 it was a limit image move that looked worse being a hairpin. Fact is how many have done that exact move without boo said? Same corner in spa 1997 Schumacher and alesi anyone?It's only because Vettel has to blame someone do to the stress of an under performing car, raikkonen right next to him on points not like previous season, possibility of not winning this year and potentially causing two accidents he had the nerve to pretend wasn't his fault.

Edited by Emmcee

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6 minutes ago, Emmcee said:

Nah Vettel would've seen him prior to the breaking zone and would've known what was going to happen. He could've seen him lined up for the braking zone, I think that's incorrect to say he couldn't and if Vettel honesty didn't check his mirrors or even have a glance to the right of him before setting up to brake for the turn, there he needs to have a look at himself. 

Vettel would have seen him prior to hitting the brakes, that's entirely correct, and he saw that he was far behind and that since there was no chance for Max to challnge neither of Vettel or Raikkonen he didn't need to worry

regarding his rear view mirros I gather that you never tried them on a single seater, you can barely see a blurred mass of colour and only at a very narrow angle, in order for Vettel to see Verstappen he would have had to look at some truck rear view mirror (and they would have to be pointing right)

 

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10 minutes ago, Emmcee said:

It's only because Vettel has to blame someone. 

for the argument's sake there's also another take on this, ie that Vettel has to be blamed no matter what ;)

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Well if you've driven a single seater you would also know that you do turn your head to look to the side of you to, to see what's going on, otherwise there would be a lot more accidents I tell you that. It's one of the first things they teach in competitive karting and it stays with you, sort of like teaching you to peddle and be aware of your surroundings. Not all times you can see that is true but they have driven at spa before and  know that particularly part of the start of the race that is a prime position to pass. Vettel could run wide and turned a tad later but didn't want to, he knew he got away with China so he will just blame max again and it worked second time. He's taken massas crown now of "not my fault, everyone else's".

Edited by Emmcee

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1 hour ago, Emmcee said:

Well if you've driven a single seater you would also know that you do turn your head to look to the side of you to, to see what's going on, otherwise there would be a lot more accidents I tell you that. It's one of the first things they teach in competitive karting and it stays with you

I explained in a previous post that nowadays in a single seater you can no longer do that, or you can do only limited movements if you like. Karts are totally different. I was also tought that if I did something stupid like divebombing into turn 1 with no chance of overtaking I might end up with a broken nose or up a tree, it's a lesson that stayed with me

Edited by Publius Cornelius Scipio

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12 hours ago, Emmcee said:

I must say I've watched and watched this over and over again and I've changed my view.

You have changed your view? On an F1 forum? Is that allowed? I thought we were supposed to argue the same positions over-and-over again, ad nauseam. ;) 

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8 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I explained in a previous post that nowadays in a single seater you can no longer do that, or you can do only limited movements if you like. Karts are totally different. I was also tought that if I did something stupid like divebombing into turn 1 with no chance of overtaking I might end up with a broken nose or up a tree, it's a lesson that stayed with me

You can to some extent mate and it's the experience also, who wouldn't make a move on the hairpin? Everyone knows that move, even AI cars in the f1 games do to. I can't see how Max's move was declared a divebomb I just can't see it, kimi gave him enough room and Seb just turned in expecting for some one to give way to him, it didn't happen so he has to blame someone.

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2 hours ago, Ruslan said:

You have changed your view? On an F1 forum? Is that allowed? I thought we were supposed to argue the same positions over-and-over again, ad nauseam. ;) 

Lol I don't care but like I said earlier I didn't get a chance to see it properly once I did I thought kimi was on the outside. It wasn't until I watched it a few times that I realised it was Vettel, saw all the other angles and formed my new conclusion.

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9 hours ago, Emmcee said:

You can to some extent mate and it's the experience also, who wouldn't make a move on the hairpin? Everyone knows that move, even AI cars in the f1 games do to. I can't see how Max's move was declared a divebomb I just can't see it, kimi gave him enough room and Seb just turned in expecting for some one to give way to him, it didn't happen so he has to blame someone.

Jacques Vuilleneuve explained this very clearly: everyone with a little bit of experience knows that at La Source there is not enough room for 3 cars abreast.

I asked for a picture of 3 cars abrest at La Source and got nothing, sadly it doesn't really work like that, 3 cars side by side there are the beginning of a crash.

I'm sure that video games are full of very exciting features, and there are plenty of overtaking opportunities at La Source, sadly it never happens with 3 cars abrest, that's the difference between fantasy (a video game) and reality

If you think that the rear view mirrors of a single seater are anything remotely similar to your road car then all I can do is strongly suggest that you try to look through them, even from a stationary single seater, then you'll tell what you see. And after that add the vibration. And that still doesn't inclue the angles involved: Verstappen was too far on the right of Vettel for him to see Max, he was in a blind spot. Plus there's another little thing that you seem to forget: Kimi's car was between Vettel and Max, either Ferrari have invented some worder rear view mirrors that allow you to see through hard metal or it's getting hard to argue that Vettel could have seen through Kimi's car (who seems to be bright red rather than made of glass)

All of this leads me to the key thing here: if on the outside of Kimi there was sometone else would we be having this conversation? am I allowed to have a few doubts?

 

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30 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

Jacques Vuilleneuve explained this very clearly: everyone with a little bit of experience knows that at La Source there is not enough room for 3 cars abreast.

I asked for a picture of 3 cars abrest at La Source and got nothing, sadly it doesn't really work like that, 3 cars side by side there are the beginning of a crash.

I'm sure that video games are full of very exciting features, and there are plenty of overtaking opportunities at La Source, sadly it never happens with 3 cars abrest, that's the difference between fantasy (a video game) and reality

If you think that the rear view mirrors of a single seater are anything remotely similar to your road car then all I can do is strongly suggest that you try to look through them, even from a stationary single seater, then you'll tell what you see. And after that add the vibration. And that still doesn't inclue the angles involved: Verstappen was too far on the right of Vettel for him to see Max, he was in a blind spot. Plus there's another little thing that you seem to forget: Kimi's car was between Vettel and Max, either Ferrari have invented some worder rear view mirrors that allow you to see through hard metal or it's getting hard to argue that Vettel could have seen through Kimi's car (who seems to be bright red rather than made of glass)

All of this leads me to the key thing here: if on the outside of Kimi there was sometone else would we be having this conversation? am I allowed to have a few doubts?

 

It is debatable then whether Vettel hit Kimi, or he was hit by a car that had no business being there in the first place, because there was a car width space on Vettel's inside. I am painfully aware that this is taking wrong turn for many Vettel's detractors, but my instinct tells me, that he will be blamed whole his life for that mess, regardles of common sense or the truth of the matter. 

I should add that I am lacking even minimal understanding how any reasonable person can exonerate and praise Verstappen for that inside dive (as they have done with Kvyat).

Edited by Sakae

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