Ruslan

Under New Management

332 posts in this topic


Seriously, there is a problem here with continued domination by one team. We've had Red Bull win the championship four seasons in a row, and for three of these seasons there was really no doubt over which driver was going to win it. Then we domination by Mercedes for three seasons in a row. But at least there was a fight between the teammates, and they were teammates with very different styles (allowing people to choose heros and villians like in a professional wrestling match). But....if 2017 is again a year of Mercedes domination with no real competition between teammates.....then they will continue to loose viewers. If 2017 is Mercedes domination...then why not 2018 also?

How does Formula One management make its product worth watching?

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2 hours ago, Ruslan said:

Seriously, there is a problem here with continued domination by one team. We've had Red Bull win the championship four seasons in a row, and for three of these seasons there was really no doubt over which driver was going to win it. Then we domination by Mercedes for three seasons in a row. But at least there was a fight between the teammates, and they were teammates with very different styles (allowing people to choose heros and villians like in a professional wrestling match). But....if 2017 is again a year of Mercedes domination with no real competition between teammates.....then they will continue to loose viewers. If 2017 is Mercedes domination...then why not 2018 also?

How does Formula One management make its product worth watching?

.

Edited by Sakae

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2 hours ago, Ruslan said:

Seriously, there is a problem here with continued domination by one team. We've had Red Bull win the championship four seasons in a row, and for three of these seasons there was really no doubt over which driver was going to win it. Then we domination by Mercedes for three seasons in a row. But at least there was a fight between the teammates, and they were teammates with very different styles (allowing people to choose heros and villians like in a professional wrestling match). But....if 2017 is again a year of Mercedes domination with no real competition between teammates.....then they will continue to loose viewers. If 2017 is Mercedes domination...then why not 2018 also?

How does Formula One management make its product worth watching?

Red bulls dominance wasn't as severe as Mercedes. Since the turbo era we've had like 59/60 races and Mercedes have won 51/52 of them.

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1 hour ago, Emmcee said:

Red bulls dominance wasn't as severe as Mercedes. Since the turbo era we've had like 59/60 races and Mercedes have won 51/52 of them.

True, but it had been seven years of dominance by one team......and I seriously doubt it is going to end.

Is Hamilton without Rosberg going to set new records for number of poles and wins in a season? Is this good racing?

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No of course not but this is f1's fault by trying to become to smart and to technical. I've said it before, this is the snowball affect from way back in 1998 when f1 was turned on its head in terms of regulations. Since then, not one season has gone by where they haven't changed at least one rule or regulation.

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The problem is not F1 "going technical".....technical innovations often give the smaller teams a chance.. The problem is that one team is massively outspending everyone else. They spent to get an advantage and then spend to maintain it. This was the source of Ferrari's dominance, Red Bull's dominance and now Mercedes' dominance. Yes, engineering, management, design and drivers matter...but in everyone of these cases the dominant team was outspending everyone.

We need a budget cap !!!!

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Budget cap makes no sense to me for reasons stated repeatedly (and never refuted) in the past. I would not waste time on that again.

Edited by Sakae

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No budget cap, just allow more testing like the good old days.

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More testing just favors the team with more budget.....how could it not.

Need to control the budget. It is the only way to get fair racing.

Edited by Ruslan

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How do? Look at the past, you had more teams and cars on the grid and only top 6 would score points and yet we had more teams and drivers scoring points than today.

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I do not understand logic of this. 

1. Impose budget, obviously at low levels (per wishes of Tier 2 group).

2. With low budget consequently no one can afford on track testing. If Tier 2 was screwed before, now everyone gets screwed. That's much better.

3. This mess improves racing. (Especially when some teams will exhaust budget limit in August, and will have to sit on bench for rest of the season).

 

 

Really? That's why everyone "likes" this idea (or maybe not). Without kidding, some people have to realize that with new and more expensive technology maybe they aren't financially fit for this sport in meaningful way. Sell team to people who can afford it, and go home, I say.

Edited by Sakae

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1 hour ago, Sakae said:

I do not understand logic of this. 

1. Impose budget, obviously at low levels (per wishes of Tier 2 group).

2. With low budget consequently no one can afford on track testing. If Tier 2 was screwed before, now everyone gets screwed. That's much better.

3. This mess improves racing. (Especially when some teams will exhaust budget limit in August, and will have to sit on bench for rest of the season).

 

 

Really? That's why everyone "likes" this idea (or maybe not). Without kidding, some people have to realize that with new and more expensive technology maybe they aren't financially fit for this sport in meaningful way. Sell team to people who can afford it, and go home, I say.

Well said, couldn't agree more. I know we need small and privately owned teams but on the other hand Iam sick of them looking for handouts or a change in regulations to extend there stay when there finacialy not able to. One way to get more money for developments and that's performing on circuit so more testing is a must and maybe the owner or ceo taking a pay cut so they can hire that person they need for that particular department. Got to start somewhere, you can't get blood out of a stone so to speak.

Edited by Emmcee

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You know, in the days when Formula one teams ran on a few million, they actually did test. Testing in the current F1 environment is more expensive, but if you put in a budget cap (and I remember the figures being batted around were 180 - 240 million), then certainly they could test as much or as little as they wanted to...dependent on budget and budget trade-offs. No need to ban testing (or limit the number of engines) for the sake of budget. They could certainly do a lot of testing with a 240 million dollar budget regardless. It is just a matter of where they would want to spend their more limited budget.

With a budget cap it is a different game. Maybe you don't have 200 people at the factory, dozens at the races, wind tunnels operating full time, a second design team designing next years' car while you develop this years' car with the first design team...and so on. But you can certainly do lots of testing, just using less people.

 

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It's an old topic.

The problem is not the budgets. Or, rather, the problem becomes the budgets when regulations impose narrow development paths, all of which are costly.

If the regulation were to be relaxed and budget caps eliminated, teams could explore as they pleased and off-the-wall ideas would beat cash. They always do, given a chance. It's called competition.

Don't forget what regulations have explicitly done to F1. Consider, for example, that turbo engines were forbidden for being too dangerous until, from one season to the next, they became mandatory. Not only it is insane. It demonstrates that the regulation was total bullsht.

So, why is F1 stuck on this weird noncompetitive loop? Because F1 is a tv show that brands use for advertising. Controlling regulations and race director means that the big teams can control how expensive and productive their advertising becomes.

Meanwhile, the small teams, the fans, and motor racing in general get screwed.

Looking forward to the season of Supercross starting in a few weeks.

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On 9/20/2016 at 5:00 AM, Ruslan said:

We shall see where this all ends up: http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a30852/formula-1s-new-chairman-dictatorship/

Summary:

1. Carey:  F1 "...can't be a dictatorship, even if probably they are used to it."

2. Carey: "But I still think that there is another level that we can take Formula 1 to"

3. Ecclestone: "If, by chance, things aren't going the way I think would be the right way then I will disappear for sure."

4. "Carey said earlier this month that one of Liberty's top priorities will be finding more fans in the States."

and this link: http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a30741/the-new-owner-of-formula-1-wants/

 

 

 

 

If you check out Ross Brawn's latest take on where F1 should be headed, Americans want power, speed, danger and noise and a new engine formula is where we should be headed. I agree. Formula E has the tech thing covered so, lets get a big, noisy powerful lump for the circus and stop p**sing around with the clever stuff that costs a mint. Let's take driver and car to the absolute limit of performance and skill, then the stadiums will be full and the TV ratings will be where they should be.

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3 hours ago, maure said:

It's an old topic.

The problem is not the budgets. Or, rather, the problem becomes the budgets when regulations impose narrow development paths, all of which are costly. If the regulation were to be relaxed and budget caps eliminated, teams could explore as they pleased and off-the-wall ideas would beat cash. They always do, given a chance. It's called competition.

That's about sums it up. The series is over regulated, over extended and in wrong direction IMHO. Cost down measures are killing the series competitive spirit and its uniqueness. People want to join an expensive club without really having cash for it. 

On second topic - departure from hybrid technology would most likely result in departure by some, now active players. Honda for example was quite open about it, that allure of technology complexity was a one of governing factors for their return to the series. Without it, there are better ways how to spend that kind of cash. I think people fooling themselves by thinking that clock can be reversed, we will return to V10 engines, and fans will come back. Maybe the geriatric generation only, but not people who do their racing on play stations. Noise and V10 is not enough of a change, and there has to be more to get them interested, because we know what happened to competing racing series in US (and that one run without hybrids). 

Financial entities made a lot of coin of the automakers (denotes expensive racing). Return to 80 ties (garagistes) and low budgets might not yield the same cash for them, therefore Liberty might not like departure of big names from series as much as some assuming they would. 

Edited by Sakae

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42 minutes ago, Sakae said:

That's about sums it up. The series is over regulated, over extended and in wrong direction IMHO. Cost down measures are killing the series competitive spirit and its uniqueness. People want to join an expensive club without really having cash for it. 

On second topic - departure from hybrid technology would most likely result in departure by some, now active players. Honda for example was quite open about it, that allure of technology complexity was a one of governing factors for their return to the series. Without it, there are better ways how to spend that kind of cash. I think people fooling themselves by thinking that clock can be reversed, we will return to V10 engines, and fans will come back. Maybe the geriatric generation only, but not people who do their racing on play stations. Noise and V10 is not enough of a change, and there has to be more to get them interested, because we know what happened to competing racing series in US (and that one run without hybrids). 

Financial entities made a lot of coin of the automakers (denotes expensive racing). Return to 80 ties (garagistes) and low budgets might not yield the same cash for them, therefore Liberty might not like departure of big names from series as much as some assuming they would. 

That's the point.

Take regulations out and Honda is free to use a hybrid engine or one running of fairy farts while the rest of the field does what it wants too.

I don't see a conflict.

In fact, I miss the tire competition too. There should be several suppliers.

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On defense of Honda, she came to the party little bit late, and as much as power plant looks uncompetitive from the sidelines, in the physical world that I understand, Honda IMHO does exceptionally well within context of existing restriction. I would not count them out at all.

Regarding tire, I am on the fence on that one, because if one supplier screws up, all of his customers are screwed, and you have two tiers on the track for full season.

Edited by Sakae

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You just need refuelling, it can't get more obvious than that.

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7 hours ago, Sakae said:

On defense of Honda, she came to the party little bit late, and as much as power plant looks uncompetitive from the sidelines, in the physical world that I understand, Honda IMHO does exceptionally well within context of existing restriction. I would not count them out at all.

As long as their awful, awful, so awful performance remains in the past...

7 hours ago, Sakae said:

Regarding tire, I am on the fence on that one, because if one supplier screws up, all of his customers are screwed, and you have two tiers on the track for full season.

The same can be said about engine suppliers... or suppliers of anything.

Besides, imo, it makes no sense to limit the number of suppliers to one, two, or any number. Bring on the competition.

7 hours ago, Emmcee said:

You just need refuelling, it can't get more obvious than that.

Well. It depends on what else is being prohibited. If it were only refueling, I see no problem. But if it is a question of choosing one degree of freedom over another (insane!), then you might be right.

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@maure Be nice, maure. Honda came back only in 2015, and one must admire progress they made to-date.  It's not perfect, but based on my own tangible experience with Honda (Tochigi), they are a tenacious bunch, and they will succeed in matching rest of the pack. Winning championship is however something else in the era of aero, which is purportedly coming back next year.

Edited by Sakae

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That's true and people don't realise, turbo engines arnt Hondas speciality. They specialise in high revving naturally aspirated engines, that's why there engine has so much power when they were last in f1.

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2 hours ago, Sakae said:

@maure Be nice, maure. Honda came back only in 2015, and one must admire progress they made to-date.  It's not perfect, but based on my own tangible experience with Honda (Tochigi), they are a tenacious bunch, and they will succeed in matching rest of the pack. Winning championship is however something else in the era of aero, which is purportedly coming back next year.

I do live in Toyota land... but, come on, contrast Honda's first season to Mercedes'. The 2015 performance by Honda was reprehensible. That's not to say I don't wish them well. In fact, a great deal of my disappointment stems from my desire to see them up front.

And, yeah, I know Mercedes bought the trick car made by Brawn but they still finished 4th their first season.

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...and they were underwhelming the two following years with a car that even Schumi could make look anything short of disappointing. Amd that in a restrictive environment that, compared to the actual one was quite generous. Nowadays, there's no proper development. Technology race was turned into a Masterchef contest. Like Mastechef, this was a "you have one shot and **** real food this is for the show".

They got neither show nor real food. Development is so restrcitive, no testing worth of that name. Teams spend millions that once went to actual car development into hiring hyper geniuses, mega wizards and 3,000 AD level simulations...and still it was just a lottery. And to make things worse, they couldnt even make a reshuffle so whoever got it right would have its advantage set in stone for generations to come. 

So more jumbling and fussing with the rules, and even then it took 2 years to have a half menacing RBR (still living on whatever magic Newey made in a previous Mastechef edition, plus a half decent engine). This is telling. It's been what? 6 years since the Red Bulls blossomed into magical aerodynamic arrows? And still no frigging team got the slightest idea of what they did. Not. One. Not even Merc. This is no technological race because nobody can test or actually reverse engineering anything because you just have no time, nor resources. 

And that has **** all to do with my initial reply. 

Welcome back, Maure, btw.

 

 

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