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radical-one

'16 Mexican Grand Prix (Guessing game)

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I am still waiting when someone starts counting Verstappen's adventures and how often he has received reprieve for his driving. In the last race, in my count, it was at least twice. Pushing Rosberg off the tarmac and making contact with his car, and of course at the end cutting across, continued and making innocent calls like - was I wrong doing so (daddy)? 

Daddy retorts - well, son, we are not sure here, hold off Vettel, but be prepared that country side sight seeing of yours will be investigated in strictly forensic fashion after race.  

 

All in all 5 sec of insignificant (because it was issued too late to have an impact) penalty. Big deal.

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9 minutes ago, Sakae said:

I am still waiting when someone starts counting Verstappen's adventures and how often he has received reprieve for his driving. In the last race, in my count, it was at least twice. Pushing Rosberg off the tarmac and making contact with his car, and of course at the end cutting across, continued and making innocent calls like - was I wrong doing so (daddy)? 

Daddy retorts - well, son, we are not sure here, hold off Vettel, but be prepared that country side sight seeing of yours will be investigated in strictly forensic fashion after race.  

 

All in all 5 sec of insignificant (because it was issued too late to have an impact) penalty. Big deal.

Yeah I agree, but Verstappen,it's weird because we know he is stil inexperienced but he's not a rookie. You can't deny he isn't bloody quick but I do agree Verstappen is to agressive most of time and just needs to tone it down a bit but it will happen and he and Vettel will cross paths again so they'll just have to deal with each other. Just imagine if they were teammates, I still think Vettel took it to far though but that's my opinion and it's all snowballed frustration from this current stage at Ferrari.

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12 minutes ago, Emmcee said:

Yeah I agree, but Verstappen,it's weird because we know he is stil inexperienced but he's not a rookie. You can't deny he isn't bloody quick but I do agree Verstappen is to agressive most of time and just needs to tone it down a bit but it will happen and he and Vettel will cross paths again so they'll just have to deal with each other. Just imagine if they were teammates, I still think Vettel took it to far though but that's my opinion and it's all snowballed frustration from this current stage at Ferrari.

No, you wait until he does it to his teammate, and then I want to read how happy you will be, screaming Murder.

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21 minutes ago, Sakae said:

No, you wait until he does it to his teammate, and then I want to read how happy you will be, screaming Murder.

Well I'll tell it how I see it happen on TV and not have a biased approach like some do here, yeah I'd be pretty peed of but I still will tell it how I see it on TV. Just find it funny that the most vocal one about the Verstappen rule is the first one punished. Both Redbull drivers have been pretty good with each other as we saw in Mexico when dan moved aside and let Verstappen by in the early stages of the race. Vettel didn't, do  that, even if on a different strategy.

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1 minute ago, Emmcee said:

Well I'll tell it how I see it happen on TV and not have a biased approach like some do here, yeah I'd be pretty peed of but I still will tell it how I see it on TV. Just find it funny that the most vocal one about the Verstappen rule is the first one punished. Both Redbull drivers have been pretty good with each other as we saw in Mexico when dan moved aside and let Verstappen by in the early stages of the race. Vettel didn't do  that in the past even if on a different strategy. China 2014 I beleive whe he was told to let the faster Ricciardo past who was right on his gear box, but he refused by saying "tough luck". Then you have "Multi 21" with webber. So imo he was what he deserved.

 

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10 hours ago, radical-one said:

He just have to kindda keep it low on those cursing because he's been overdoing it. You can't complain and curse in each instance, That's my only issue with him - IF in fact he's saying and meaning what we hear on TV. Otherwise I give him the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe he uses bad language only a few times each race and we get to ear each any any one of these outbursts, we don't know, I'd be suprised if ALL the other drivers didn't do exactly the same, and that's not because they are foul mouthed and nasty people but because they are in a very very very high stress situation talking privately with their engineer. They are not radio DJs, they don't talk to million of people, they talk to 1 chap and that's it. Only every now and then someone picks up a few words and makes them public just to spice things up. So IMHO either they make all radio communication of each driver public or they should concentrate on the racing if they want to spice things up. Or they could ban any radio communication, that would be even better, every driver out there to fend for themselves, and let the best win

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I would agree that internal communication would be better off to remain private, because of cultural diversity, and inevitable varying interpretations of feedback provided. Sarcasm plays not too well with certain cultures, and it is also interpreted differently than necessarily it was meant. I would not expect a Japanese national to necessarily accept or understand Germanic style of communication, and vice versa. I am not sure who came up with this idea that it is good thing, but not everyone is English, not everyone wants to be judged on English standards, and it is rather unfortunate that people on the inside have agreed with the broadcast. Based of post-race reaction, one is left wondering whether whole issue was actually blown out of proportion, and took focus much of more serious issues (at least IMO). Over the years I am quite sure that Vettel is a friendly, honest guy with sense for humor, yet he is getting killed now, and people do not care what actually ignited this situation, and some criteria applied against him seems rather patronizing. I have posted the other day a pretty nasty rant by DC recorded in Monaco, yet I have not read one post on this forum in which he would be denounced for that language and behavior. To make a long story short, yes, we would be better off "not knowing". 

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There is no sign of repentance in RBR camp. Running Rosberg off the track, banging wheels with him, cutting across and gaining on Vettel - its all good, says, Mr. Horner. He sounded actually even upset and in resentment over that 5 sec penalty MV received at the end. Max Verstappen is not there to help WDC aspirant, declared Brit. 

It could be just me, but I think, regrettably, F1 is transforming into something very ugly.

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I thought you were supposed to challenge everyone for position if there in the same race as you. Not let them go without a fight. This is f1 today, pussy footing around absolutely everything, there's no risk involved anymore. 

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Now hold on, Verstappen hitting Rosberg at the wheel and running him off the road is than fine with you? Accidental contact was, and probably will remain so part of the auto-racing, nothing much can be done about it, so much is true, however running someone off the tarmac with all four wheels I thought would be something else, and judged differently. There are precedents for these kind of incidents. In the last race Horner's attitude over this specific encounter is on borderline interfering with WDC run, because Hamilton needs Rosberg in DNF position, or finish in low points. Rosberg actually thought he was done for the race after the impact.

 

 

This is what happens when everything goes.

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1 hour ago, Sakae said:

Now hold on, Verstappen hitting Rosberg at the wheel and running him off the road is than fine with you? Accidental contact was, and probably will remain so part of the auto-racing, nothing much can be done about it, so much is true, however running someone off the tarmac with all four wheels I thought would be something else, and judged differently. There are precedents for these kind of incidents. In the last race Horner's attitude over this specific encounter is on borderline interfering with WDC run, because Hamilton needs Rosberg in DNF position, or finish in low points. Rosberg actually thought he was done for the race after the impact.

 

 

This is what happens when everything goes.

If you have an issue with this , the. What Vettel did to Ricciardo is just as bad is it not? That video also shows in experience and just being a tad to agressive. This is the the worst one for Vettel this season, out of the two first corner incidents I feel he caused, this verbal rant and hipercritical driving is worse by far.

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Just now, Emmcee said:

If you have an issue with this , the. What Vettel did to Ricciardo is just as bad is it not?

Vettel lost podium, and was ridiculed all over the internet, in the case you missed that detail. What has Verstappen lost for hitting and forcing Rosberg of tarmac?

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4 hours ago, Sakae said:

Vettel lost podium, and was ridiculed all over the internet, in the case you missed that detail. What has Verstappen lost for hitting and forcing Rosberg of tarmac?

Vettel broke the rules simple as that, that's why he was penalised.  As for Verstappen and rosberg, Verstappen was far up alongside rosberg for it to be concidered a legitimate overtaking attempt. For them to touch wheels it means the both want the same line and it's who surrenders first looses the place. No one complained like this when Michael Schumacher bumped his way Into the lead in the race at the Nurburgring in 1995. IMO one of the greatest moves I've seen but the fact is, if that driving was done today people would go nuts and claim something  has to be done.

 

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6 hours ago, Emmcee said:

Vettel broke the rules simple as that, that's why he was penalised.  As for Verstappen and rosberg, Verstappen was far up alongside rosberg for it to be concidered a legitimate overtaking attempt. For them to touch wheels it means the both want the same line and it's who surrenders first looses the place. No one complained like this when Michael Schumacher bumped his way Into the lead in the race at the Nurburgring in 1995. IMO one of the greatest moves I've seen but the fact is, if that driving was done today people would go nuts and claim something  has to be done.

 

Vettel broke which rule? That penalty was harsh. 

If there is a rule for whining., I am sure he broke that rule long time ago.

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Which rule? The new "Verstappen rule" where it's now illegal to move u der braking. It was created but Max verstappens questionable defence. Vettel was the man driver who push for this rule to get passed and it did so i find it funny he gets penalised for it.

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Ok.....trying to sort through all I saw this weekend.....(hi everyone....sorry I have not been around for the last few weeks):

1. Hamilton cuts the corner in turn 1 to maintain the lead. It struck me as questionable but as a steward, not sure I would have penalized him for it, because he was very much already well in the lead (and because who knows what the actual rules are....).

2. Rosberg cuts the corner in turn 1 to reclaim the lead. This struck me as more questionable and I wonder if he should have been penalized.

3. Verstappen took away Rosberg's space or ran Rosberg off the track...not sure as I did not flip through the race multiple times to determine guilt. Typical Verstappen, but we kind of what them to race. Not sure I would have penalized him for it.

4. Then towards the end of the race, Verstappen clearly cut the corner to maintain the lead. I thought he should have been penalized for that...and he was. On the other hand, I actually don't blame him. What other option did he have, either lose it on the track or lose it post-race.

5. Then Vettel changed direction under braking to squeeze out DR. It was late in the race and for position, I am not sure I would penalize him for that. On the other hand, the driver in question has been the first to complain about these things, and Charlie Whiting did make some new rules in the last race concerning that, and then he violated them.....so not feeling a lot of sympathy for Vettel.

6. And Vettel chewed out Charlie Whiting...among many other complaints this weekend (and pretty much every race weekend). Being a first amendment kind of guy, I would not have penalized him (and I gather he did sincerely apologize for it directly to Charlie)....but I would have spoken to his management about his behavior and to his mother, as he still acts like a spoiled 13 year old.

7. Oh...and Verstappen also kind of remains a d#ck, but that is not an item stewards or FIA should be addressing.

8. DR was kind of whiney at the end of the race. That is not like him....he is probably learning from Vettel and Verstappen.

9. One will note that the best behaved driver among the top 5 was Hamilton. This is often the case, yet the anti-Hamilton crowd in this forum is pretty loud. When it comes to fair and clean racing, Hamilton is far from perfect, but over the last couple of seasons he has been cleaner than Rosberg, Vettel or Verstappen.

10. Perhaps they should re-design the corners do that you cannot cut them and gain an advantage....maybe by cleverly redesigning the off-track areas (gravel seems to do the trick).

 

Anyhow, if I had been stewarding, I probably would have forced Rosberg and Verstappen to give up their positions. As Rosberg's was early in the race, suspect he would have still ended up second. Vettel would have been third. The penalties should have been imposed during the race, so the driver's would have had a chance to correct it. Shuffling the podium at the end of the race, and two hours after the race, is not very cool.

 

 

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Not bad Ruslan, despite, not surprisingly, I take exception to couple of issues. From a rule book, which everyone is so quick (if convenient) pull out, letting Hamilton keep lead after he overshot corner in attempt to escape Rosberg, was plainly wrong. His gap to Rosberg increased after he reentered. So much for his "lifting". He should have been awarded 5 sec penalty at his next pit stop.

Radio transcript.

Spare a few minutes, and read it. Put yourself into Vettel's shoes. It was very clear what games RBR and FiA's support played with Vettel. Had Vesrtappen slotted behind, as was expected, race certainly had potential to develop and end differently.

As it often happens, I think a wrong man was on trial, with a lot being out of correct focus IMO.

This horse is dead, Brazil is ahead.

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24 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Not bad Ruslan, despite, not surprisingly, I take exception to couple of issues. From a rule book, which everyone is so quick (if convenient) pull out, letting Hamilton keep lead after he overshot corner in attempt to escape Rosberg, was plainly wrong. His gap to Rosberg increased after he reentered. So much for his "lifting". He should have been awarded 5 sec penalty at his next pit stop.

Radio transcript.

Spare a few minutes, and read it. Put yourself into Vettel's shoes. It was very clear what games RBR and FiA's support played with Vettel. Had Vesrtappen slotted behind, as was expected, race certainly had potential to develop and end differently.

As it often happens, I think a wrong man was on trial, with a lot being out of correct focus IMO.

This horse is dead, Brazil is ahead.

Games what games? Vettel played  games better than anyone in the past, serves him right to get the short end of the stick for once.

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2 hours ago, Emmcee said:

Games what games? Vettel played  games better than anyone in the past, serves him right to get the short end of the stick for once.

Check the record, please. (In provided link to radio com transcript). RBR is hectically evaluating DC's progress, informing him on timing data, and it was clear to them, that DC having to overtake both, Verstappen first, and than Vettel, that was not going to happen. Verstappen however staying in the front and slowing down Vettel was a totally different strategy. This was essence of the RB's game. 

It is true that Vettel still had some catching up to do of Verstappen, but he was clearly faster, and there is no doubt in my mind that Verstappen gained by going off. He plays rough, we all know that now, and it would have not gone as an easy pass, but Vettel had more speed, and in turns that were ahead could line him up at the exit, methinks. Now we will never know.

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