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Sakae

2017 Ferrari

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Valtteri Bottas believes that Mercedes' Formula 1 engine still holds the edge over Ferrari in qualifying, but the difference between them is now tiny.

motosport.com

 

Contradicts line Hamilton was pushing. 

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We are heading for Baku, and as usual, from British sources Vettel is 2:1 and Hamilton is 10:11 for victory.

In quite deliberate manner and without substance first one is undervalued, and later is overvalued - but what else is new?

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Ferrari are wisely interested in Verstappen. Their car might carry them this year. But they will need to upgrade their driver line up for future seasons.

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1 hour ago, VicVenom said:

Ferrari are wisely interested in Verstappen...

Who is the sources of this? Thrust of this variant, predominantly in speculative terms, are probably Dutch media, but I have not come across anyone else promoting this line. Ferrari stated unequivocally in the past that they will not buy-out RBR's drivers contracts, and that especially after Dr. Marko insisted such option is not on the table. Take for example Sainz' case; even he cannot get released, Marko said just about two weeks ago. 

Vettel meanwhile was offered, per several sources, a new lucrative contract from Ferrari, thus he has a few years ahead of him before he "fades away," a line which some pedaling about him for several years. One wonders then what Ferrari sees in him, which side lines do not. At the end it is a fact that Vettel will drive whoever Ferrari will determine to be his teammate, like it or not, believe it, or not. It is an old story which hits headlines without fail as soon as Ferrari hires someone (like KR) side-lines did not support, blame immediately goes on Vettel's head for "blocking" media choices. (Perez, Verstappen, Ricciardo, ...)

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Joe Saward is the source. He says Verstappen has exit clauses and that no one believes Red Bull's denials.

Vettel will no doubt try and convince Ferrari to renew Kimi's contract again. Kimi is a nice little support driver. Just there to draw a cheque. Makes Vettel look better than he is. Vettel would not be able to live with Verstappen. 

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1 hour ago, VicVenom said:

Joe Saward is the source. He says Verstappen has exit clauses and that no one believes Red Bull's denials.

Vettel will no doubt try and convince Ferrari to renew Kimi's contract again. Kimi is a nice little support driver. Just there to draw a cheque. Makes Vettel look better than he is. Vettel would not be able to live with Verstappen. 

Welcome to the forum Vic, interesting post, I agree that Ferrari must have shown some real interest in Verstappen because so many people are talking about it that there must be some truth (considering who these people are).

I would love to see Vettel in the same team as Verstappen, I personally think that Vettel is better than many people give him credit for, IMHO Vettel's only weakness is that he doesn't seem to be able to adapt too easily to a car that doesn't suit his driving style (something that people like Alonso or Hamilton excel at), having said that I'd say that give Vettel a car that he does trust (for turn in, under braking and with a compliant rear end) and he is the real hammer among the current crop of F1 drivers, IMHO no one else can match his ability to set very fast laps one after the other.

I agree that Kimi is no longer the Kimi we all used to love back in 2005, but in fairness to Kimi that was a long time ago and for that reason I hope that Ferrari finally hires a strong driver instead of Kimi, I'd say that Verstappen, Sainz or Rosberg (all names that are regularly being linked to Ferrari on the usually well informed Italian media) would all be able to spice things up, Verstappen for his self confidence and his approach, Sainz for his fighting spirit and Rosberg because he's a bloody hard worker and much faster driver that some seem to remember

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How do you balance Verstappen's persona with Ferrari's rhetoric - we are a team. Young Verstappen is anything but that, from what he demonstrated in past two years, including some pretty nasty and direct anti-Vettel's rhetoric. I am not sure why people think Maranello needs desperately civil war. Maybe Kimi will retire (I have no clue about his plan), but there are some better replacements on the list than Verstappen.

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41 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

... to adapt too easily to a car that doesn't suit his driving style (something that people like Alonso or Hamilton excel at),

Are you sure, and how it was demonstrated? When Hamilton lost a few races to Rosberg, he went public that a car did not suited to his driving style, and blamed the car for his loss. Alonso had nothing but all cars that he drove built to his driving style. Renault, Ferrari, and now McLaren. Forgive me, but I am slightly lost on what grounds those two can or should receive flattery when reality seems rather pointing in different direction. In Ferrari it was actually Kimi, who suffered because he could not drive the car built for or around Alonso's driving style. This problem was described and confirmed by more than just one or two insiders. I would be careful to claim that Vettel is unique on this issue.

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22 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Are you sure, and how it was demonstrated? When Hamilton lost a few races to Rosberg, he went public that a car did not suited to his driving style, and blamed the car for his loss. Alonso had nothing but all cars that he drove built to his driving style. Renault, Ferrari, and now McLaren. Forgive me, but I am slightly lost on what grounds those two can or should receive flattery when reality seems rather pointing in different direction. In Ferrari it was actually Kimi, who suffered because he could not drive the car built for or around Alonso's driving style. This problem was described and confirmed by more than just one or two insiders. I would be careful to claim that Vettel is unique on this issue.

Sakae, Alonso was the first and only to fully adapt to the mass damper (which required a totally different driving style) and you just have to look at what he's doing with his car this season to fully appreciate how brilliantly he can adapt to the car that he's given, Hamilton has proved time and again that he can drive around the issues of his car (his problem is not adapting to his car but rather lack of focus). Vettel is certainly better than you and me at adapting his driving style to the circumstances but for a top F1 driver he's not exceptional (2014?)

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Thanks for the return, however I am not sure that it proves anything, as all has certain context. Vettel had on his mind more than racing in 2014, so I am not going to rehash all of that again here and now, never-mind as a "definite" statement on his shortcomings. In lighthearted discussion at the water-cooler maybe, but not if one sits down and digs deep into it race by race, including external noises, and one gets slightly different picture of his existence in his last year with RBR, and whether he failed because of his clumsiness, or it was just because of overwhelming lack of trying, and merely going through the motions.

Hamilton can drive around issues on the car and Vettel is not? That's news to me. In the last race, as the most recent example, Vettel had really rather sick car, not a first time BTW, and he drive around it. Problem is, he doesn't receive the same recognition for it, as exhibited by brief note about it in media. The same mantra is being repeated over and over, including - he cannot overtake anyone. Suppressing Vettel's accomplishment however cannot change anything on the fact, that he can do anything Hamilton can IMO and with a smile on his face.

With regards Alonso, current McLaren, as past Ferrari, as past Renault were cars built around Alonso, and now he should receive credit that he liked it because he adapted to those cars, dumper or not? Unapologetically I am in different column on that.

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19 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Thanks for the return, however I am not sure that it proves anything, as all has certain context. Vettel had on his mind more than racing in 2014, so I am not going to rehash all of that again here and now, never-mind as a "definite" statement on his shortcomings. In lighthearted discussion at the water-cooler maybe, but not if one sits down and digs deep into it race by race, including external noises, and one gets slightly different picture of his existence in his last year with RBR, and whether he failed because of his clumsiness, or it was just because of overwhelming lack of trying, and merely going through the motions.

Hamilton can drive around issues on the car and Vettel is not? That's news to me. In the last race, as the most recent example, Vettel had really rather sick car, not a first time BTW, and he drive around it. Problem is, he doesn't receive the same recognition for it, as exhibited by brief note about it in media. The same mantra is being repeated over and over, including - he cannot overtake anyone. Suppressing Vettel's accomplishment however cannot change anything on the fact, that he can do anything Hamilton can IMO and with a smile on his face.

With regards Alonso, current McLaren, as past Ferrari, as past Renault were cars built around Alonso, and now he should receive credit that he liked it because he adapted to those cars, dumper or not? Unapologetically I am in different column on that.

I rest my case

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Where was Vettel 's simile in early 2012, 2014 or 2016?

Ferrari want to win. They have a better chance of that if they sign Verstappen as their lead driver. He's clearly the future and a more gifted driver than Vettel. If Vettel is really that good, he'll have no issue having a proper teammate.

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Subject matter has been addressed many times already and there is no need for us here to come back to this. Take some reading on it instead sprouting some subjective speculation dressed as facts. Vettel is a 29 years old with four WDC real titles to his credit, and if that seems to be old age for you, and his WDC titles worthless junk, I am then sorry, but for now, you will need to learn to live with it.

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1 hour ago, Sakae said:

Subject matter has been addressed many times already and there is no need for us here to come back to this. 

Well there is otherwise the forum could just close down 

Vettel needs a competitive team mate, at the very least he needs someone who on occasion can take away points from Mercedes, Kimi hasn't been doing much such work of late

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2 hours ago, Sakae said:

Subject matter has been addressed many times already and there is no need for us here to come back to this. Take some reading on it instead sprouting some subjective speculation dressed as facts. Vettel is a 29 years old with four WDC real titles to his credit, and if that seems to be old age for you, and his WDC titles worthless junk, I am then sorry, but for now, you will need to learn to live with it.

I'm very familiar with Vettel's career. At times there have been no excuse for this performance. He's not amongst the greats. Verstappen might just be a great in the making. He looks to be the best talent of this century so far. If Ferrari sign him to a long term deal, they won't have to worry about their driver line-up for a good few years. 

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55 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

Well there is otherwise the forum could just close down 

Vettel needs a competitive team mate, at the very least he needs someone who on occasion can take away points from Mercedes, Kimi hasn't been doing much such work of late

Plenty opportunity on the forum to discuss many topics, without dragging Vettel into it.

Kimi - what can I say, other than noting as in recent years became habit, bad thing will be said about him in next little while, he will receive a lot of trashing from side-lines, and at the end I would not be surprised if I see him one year more in red uniform. Should he retire? I am not in a position to decide on that, thus I do not spend too much time thinking about it.  All what I know at the moment is, that he is competing with Vettel on equal terms, he is more experienced than Vandoorne, and he is not tamed into No. 2 as Bottas seems to be at MB. 

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13 minutes ago, Sakae said:

All what I know at the moment is, that he is competing with Vettel on equal terms, he is more experienced than Vandoorne, and he is not tamed into No. 2 as Bottas seems to be at MB. 

Vandoorne and Bottas would be winning races in this year's Ferrari. Vandoorne is made to look worse by being teamed with Alonso and a difficult car. 

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11 hours ago, Sakae said:

Plenty opportunity on the forum to discuss many topics, without dragging Vettel into it.

But this is a forum about F1 and Vettel is a leading F1 driver, if we can't talk about Vettel what is the point of the forum? Besides why should we censor posts about Vettel? :unsure:

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11 hours ago, Sakae said:

Kimi - what can I say, other than noting as in recent years became habit, bad thing will be said about him in next little while, he will receive a lot of trashing from side-lines, and at the end I would not be surprised if I see him one year more in red uniform. Should he retire? I am not in a position to decide on that, thus I do not spend too much time thinking about it.  All what I know at the moment is, that he is competing with Vettel on equal terms, he is more experienced than Vandoorne, and he is not tamed into No. 2 as Bottas seems to be at MB. 

Kimi is not competing with Vettel on equal terms, Kimi can have a stunning lap or a great week end but sadly he no longer has the consistency needed to be competing with Vettel on equal terms. Let's not forget that Kimi has now been around for a very long time, he's enjoying himself, he doesn't create problems within Ferrari and the fans love him, but you can't possibly argue that in 2017 he's on the same level as Vettel or the Mercedes duo, he might have a good week end every now and then but that's it.

Vandoorne has only 2 major problems: the first one is that he has very little experience with F1 cars and his McLaren - Honda is breaking down all the time so he hasn't got the chance to develop, to learn, to come up with a suitable set up, the second problem that Vandoorne is facing is called Fernando Alonso, the guy voted by his peers as the best overall driver in F1 these days, and on top of that Vandoorne is facing a raging Fernando Alonso who is pulling all the stops to draw the attention of the top teams in the hope of finding a decent drive for next year. The difficulties that Vandoorne is facing this year are enourmous

Bottas has no contract for next year, he has to do what Toto and Niki tell him to do (and besides he has been beaten so often by Massa that one has to wonder if he really is so good as to deserve to have one of the best cars in the grid)

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3 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

But this is a forum about F1 and Vettel is a leading F1 driver, if we can't talk about Vettel what is the point of the forum? Besides why should we censor posts about Vettel? :unsure:

Of course not, and I should bear responsibility for not expressing my frustration with disparaging remarks of this driver, be those direct or implied, in slightly more intelligently.

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13 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

Kimi is not competing with Vettel on equal terms, Kimi can have a stunning lap or a great week end but sadly he no longer has the consistency needed to be competing with Vettel on equal terms. Let's not forget that Kimi has now been around for a very long time, he's enjoying himself, he doesn't create problems within Ferrari and the fans love him, but you can't possibly argue that in 2017 he's on the same level as Vettel or the Mercedes duo, he might have a good week end every now and then but that's it.

Vandoorne has only 2 major problems: the first one is that he has very little experience with F1 cars and his McLaren - Honda is breaking down all the time so he hasn't got the chance to develop, to learn, to come up with a suitable set up, the second problem that Vandoorne is facing is called Fernando Alonso, the guy voted by his peers as the best overall driver in F1 these days, and on top of that Vandoorne is facing a raging Fernando Alonso who is pulling all the stops to draw the attention of the top teams in the hope of finding a decent drive for next year. The difficulties that Vandoorne is facing this year are enourmous

Bottas has no contract for next year, he has to do what Toto and Niki tell him to do (and besides he has been beaten so often by Massa that one has to wonder if he really is so good as to deserve to have one of the best cars in the grid)

I do appreciate your (always respected and welcomed) analysis, but certainly you know that without oversimplifying my point, I reiterate, Kimi has a car that suits him, and he is free to race without restrictions. McLaren is a car which suits to one driver, and his teammate, makes that driver look really good with his inexperience, regardless of vehicle, because he is even less competitive than Kimi (at least for now). Bottas, as Alain Prost has noted, is No. 2 in that squad. They are talking about Ferrari having such process in place, despite the fact, it is rather at Mercedes, where at least twice this year (that we know about), where Bottas was asked to yield to great Senna I meant Hamilton.

BTW I did missed your review of the last race.

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15 minutes ago, Sakae said:

McLaren is a car which suits to one driver, and his teammate, makes that driver look really good with his inexperience, regardless of vehicle, because he is even less competitive than Kimi (at least for now).

bulls##t.

The McLaren doesn't suit anyone. Their engine is a lemon.There is a reason why most insiders rate Alonso above Vettel and Kimi. I say that as a Kimi fan and someone who doesn't like Alonso at all. 

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2 hours ago, Sakae said:

Of course not, and I should bear responsibility for not expressing my frustration with disparaging remarks of this driver, be those direct or implied, in slightly more intelligently.

no one is saying that Vettel is a bad driver, on the contrary, but everyone has his weaknesses and the same rule applies to Vettel, he does seem to find it difficult to adapt to cars that have a lively rear end, for example, others drivers have their weaknesses too, Hamilton can't focus and craks under pressure, Alonso is a bit too upfront, etc, in the end they are all human, very talented but still human beings

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