2017 Ferrari

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

1 hour ago, Sakae said:

I do appreciate your (always respected and welcomed) analysis, but certainly you know that without oversimplifying my point, I reiterate, Kimi has a car that suits him, and he is free to race without restrictions. McLaren is a car which suits to one driver, and his teammate, makes that driver look really good with his inexperience, regardless of vehicle, because he is even less competitive than Kimi (at least for now). Bottas, as Alain Prost has noted, is No. 2 in that squad. They are talking about Ferrari having such process in place, despite the fact, it is rather at Mercedes, where at least twice this year (that we know about), where Bottas was asked to yield to great Senna I meant Hamilton.

BTW I did missed your review of the last race.

I totally agree that (i) Kimi has a car that suits him and that (ii) he is 100% free to race (and I don't buy for a single second that in Monaco they played games with his strategy and I stated that clearly many times), the problem for Ferrari and for Vettel is that Kimi no longer has the consistency to keep up with Vettel and to "steal" some points from the Mercedes duo, they might well keep him onborad for another season but IMHO that would be a mistake.

I also totally agree that Bottas is a #2 driver, no question about that, I presume that his contract is very clear on this matter, notwithstanding the fact that IMHO on a good day Hamilton could drive circles round Bottas irrespective of what Bottas says about his #2 status

I didn't write a review of the last race, I was busy that week (and I watched the race late on a Sunday night while in Londinium, so I missed a few bits of action due to commercials)

[Sakae 0]

1 hour ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

no one is saying that Vettel is a bad driver, on the contrary, but everyone has his weaknesses and the same rule applies to Vettel, he does seem to find it difficult to adapt to cars that have a lively rear end, for example, others drivers have their weaknesses too, Hamilton can't focus and craks under pressure, Alonso is a bit too upfront, etc, in the end they are all human, very talented but still human beings

Returning back to the point of discussion origin, following suggestion that Vettel "must" race against Verstappen I am merely suggesting to check against whom Alonso and Hamilton are racing, yet no one even bleeps they should "prove" themselves that way. If necessary I could pull out quotes what Hamilton said about his experience racing against Alonso in one team, if anyone wants to point finger that I am bias. It was nothing but damnation of the sick relationship I've never heard Vettel speaking about anyone in whole his career of 10 years. Two type A personalities is simply hard to make work in F1 racing. Two different teams, but of similar performance is far more promising for fans. MB and current Ferrari is probably exactly what doctor prescribed.

[VicVenom 0]

31 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Returning back to the point of discussion origin, following suggestion that Vettel "must" race against Verstappen 

This wasn't said.

All I said was that Vettel would struggle against Verstappen. It's unlikely that he would beat him. It's better for Ferrari to have Verstappen. It improves their chances in the short and long run. 

[Sakae 0]

When Arrivabene will hire you as his adviser, please let me know, and I start paying attention to you without yawning. I promise.

[VicVenom 0]

16 minutes ago, Sakae said:

When Arrivabene will hire you as his adviser, please let me know, and I start paying attention to you without yawning. I promise.

Since Arrivabene and Ferrari seem interested in Verstappen, it would seem they don't need my advice. Verstappen is much younger, more talented and more marketable. Vettel is a good driver, but not a great. 

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

1 hour ago, Sakae said:

Returning back to the point of discussion origin, following suggestion that Vettel "must" race against Verstappen I am merely suggesting to check against whom Alonso and Hamilton are racing, yet no one even bleeps they should "prove" themselves that way.

my point is that Ferrari needs a strong driver in their second car, not that they need someone who could be used as a benchmark of how good Vettel is, IMHO a strong team mate would be good for Vettel

[BradSpeedMan 6]

9 minutes ago, VicVenom said:

Since Arrivabene and Ferrari seem interested in Verstappen, it would seem they don't need my advice. Verstappen is much younger, more talented and more marketable. Vettel is a good driver, but not a great. 

He's already amongts the greats. You don't win  4 championships merely by being good, despite what his distractors may say. All down to a Newey car blah blah blah... He's leading the championship now with another carmaker, after the mess with the Alonso era had to be rectified. Kimi could'nt even drive the bloody car

[VicVenom 0]

32 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

He's already amongts the greats. 

Not in terms of talent. Anyone can look unbeatable if they get in the right cat at the right time. Vettel has been very lucky in that regard.

[Sakae 0]

28 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

my point is that Ferrari needs a strong driver in their second car, not that they need someone who could be used as a benchmark of how good Vettel is, IMHO a strong team mate would be good for Vettel

Not an easy job to find a strong driver lacking aspiration to beat 4x champ, and grab WDC for himself. It is always a fight. Question only remains whether it is a fight based on skills, or based on playing politics in arena of public opinion.

[Sakae 0]

6 hours ago, VicVenom said:

Not in terms of talent. Anyone can look unbeatable if they get in the right cat at the right time. Vettel has been very lucky in that regard.

Picking up on Vettel again? Maybe you can now expand your scientific investigation who else is driving, or used to drive fast cars, and how many drivers actually won WDC with slow car. It will be probably eye opening discovery for you. I recommend to start with Kanaan:

Quote

"What can I say," Kanaan told GLOBO. "The guy (Hamilton) competed in a two-car world championship last year and was second,...
Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/indycar/tony-kanaan-fires-back-lewis-hamilton-indycar-cheap-shot#ixzz4kl8fJ0gw

 

[VicVenom 0]

3 hours ago, Sakae said:

Picking up on Vettel again? Maybe you can now expand your scientific investigation who else is driving, or used to drive fast cars, and how many drivers actually won WDC with slow car. It will be probably eye opening discovery for you. I recommend to start with Kanaan:

 

Yes, a driver needs a good car to win the WDC. But Vettel needs more help than most. This might be eye opening for you - http://en.f1i.com/news/77605-f1-media-sees-alonso-best-driver-current-grid.html

Notice that there isn't a single insider across several countries who rates Vettel above Hamilton or Alonso? I don't really like any of them. But I can happily give Alonso and Hamilton their due. 

[Sakae 0]

7 hours ago, VicVenom said:

Yes, a driver needs a good car to win the WDC. But Vettel needs more help than most. This might be eye opening for you - http://en.f1i.com/news/77605-f1-media-sees-alonso-best-driver-current-grid.html

Notice that there isn't a single insider across several countries who rates Vettel above Hamilton or Alonso? I don't really like any of them. But I can happily give Alonso and Hamilton their due. 

Well, I do. 

[VicVenom 0]

5 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Well, I do. 

I'm sure you know better 

[BradSpeedMan 6]

On 6/22/2017 at 2:47 PM, VicVenom said:

Not in terms of talent. Anyone can look unbeatable if they get in the right cat at the right time. Vettel has been very lucky in that regard.

Really?? He won races in cars he should'nt have. Three of his championships went down to the wire, on equal terms with his competitors. How can deduce that he is not worthy of being amongts the greats, which he already is. What's your excuse?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

15 hours ago, VicVenom said:

Yes, a driver needs a good car to win the WDC. But Vettel needs more help than most. This might be eye opening for you - http://en.f1i.com/news/77605-f1-media-sees-alonso-best-driver-current-grid.html

Notice that there isn't a single insider across several countries who rates Vettel above Hamilton or Alonso? I don't really like any of them. But I can happily give Alonso and Hamilton their due. 

This coming from F1 drivers themselves, I'de rather believe them then any F1 media ppl.... Won't you ?

Webber:

http://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/webber-vettel-best-f1-driver-maldonado-worst-20160125

I'de rather believe Webber who was his teammate during controversial circumstances and has no reason to say this -

"If I had to pick one, I'd probably pick Sebastian, in terms of pulling the whole juggernaut together and getting the whole team going, which I think he will do at Ferrari shortly.

"He's notoriously consistent and unfortunately I was on the receiving end of a lot of that, but he's pretty handy. 

 

Villeneuve:

http://www.f1undercover.com/vettel-complete-driver-villeneuve/

Why? “Because he has no weaknesses and it seems at the moment that Ferrari don’t either,” 

[Sakae 0]

18 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

This coming from F1 drivers themselves, I'de rather believe them then any F1 media ppl.... Won't you ?

Webber:

http://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/webber-vettel-best-f1-driver-maldonado-worst-20160125

I'de rather believe Webber who was his teammate during controversial circumstances and has no reason to say this -

"If I had to pick one, I'd probably pick Sebastian, in terms of pulling the whole juggernaut together and getting the whole team going, which I think he will do at Ferrari shortly.

"He's notoriously consistent and unfortunately I was on the receiving end of a lot of that, but he's pretty handy. 

 

Villeneuve:

http://www.f1undercover.com/vettel-complete-driver-villeneuve/

Why? “Because he has no weaknesses and it seems at the moment that Ferrari don’t either,” 

Thanks Brad for your effort to pull old quotes out. At one time or another they all were already posted on the forum, and maybe more than once, yet it did not convince people who do not want to be convinced, and they will give you their backhand subjective opinion based on feelings. Scipio might be an exception, since he reasons his case, and one has to respect that. I do not want to put anyone on my ignore list, but I must admit that some stuff is really hard to accept as serious discourse.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

27 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Scipio might be an exception, since he reasons his case, and one has to respect that. 

I think that Vettel is one of the top 3 guys out there, with Alonso and Hamilton. Having said that I rest my case, I believe that Vettel has difficulties when he's driving a tail happy car, he proved that many times. They all have some weakness, they are not superheroes, they are super drivers

[Sakae 0]

One question that remains unanswered, at least I think so, how truthful is in that claim, that Vettel was driving vastly superior RB all those years when he was there. I am tired and do not see much good to re-reason that case, but my recollection is that purported advantage was far from the high benchmark some are alleging on sidelines. I could search (but won't) for Lowe's comments where McLaren was in comparative terms, and it was not all RB car only according to him. Simply put, RB was a good car to have on most monitored sectors, however under existing rule book, rivals could match it in construction as there were no roadblocks to such effort, but most importantly, Vettel simply drove better. Until today I am waiting for someone to make a decent case study of his life there.

In UK there was a study done of drivers, by group of U-nerds who like F1, and as much as it was possible they deployed scientific methods for their analysis. If I recall conclusion, Hamilton came out only as sixth best driver (having taken into consideration his results and equipment to his disposal), whereas Vettel I think was in P2.  I am failing to recall who was in P1, but it was either Prost, Michael or Senna. Alonso did not merit high either in that study.

[VicVenom 0]

1 hour ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Really?? He won races in cars he should'nt have. Three of his championships went down to the wire, on equal terms with his competitors. How can deduce that he is not worthy of being amongts the greats, which he already is. What's your excuse?

2 of his Championships went down to the wire. Both of them shouldn't. He had the best car by a mile. You should consult a doctor if you think the Ferrari was equal in 2010 or 2012.  What's your excuse for him there? He had the best car by a mile in the other two as well. 

1 hour ago, BradSpeedMan said:

This coming from F1 drivers themselves, I'de rather believe them then any F1 media ppl.... Won't you ?

Webber:

http://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/webber-vettel-best-f1-driver-maldonado-worst-20160125

I'de rather believe Webber who was his teammate during controversial circumstances and has no reason to say this -

"If I had to pick one, I'd probably pick Sebastian, in terms of pulling the whole juggernaut together and getting the whole team going, which I think he will do at Ferrari shortly.

"He's notoriously consistent and unfortunately I was on the receiving end of a lot of that, but he's pretty handy. 

 

Villeneuve:

http://www.f1undercover.com/vettel-complete-driver-villeneuve/

Why? “Because he has no weaknesses and it seems at the moment that Ferrari don’t either,” 

You are aware that Alonso was selected as best drivers amongst his peers? Both in 2010 vs the entire grid. And in 2013 against Vettel in particular? 

28 minutes ago, Sakae said:

In UK there was a study done of drivers, by group of U-nerds who like F1, and as much as it was possible they deployed scientific methods for their analysis. If I recall conclusion, Hamilton came out only as sixth best driver (having taken into consideration his results and equipment to his disposal), whereas Vettel I think was in P2.  I am failing to recall who was in P1, but it was either Prost, Michael or Senna. Alonso did not merit high either in that study.

That study was horses##t.

You're wrong anyway. Alonso was rated higher than Vettel on the list. Vettel barely made the top 10, - https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/fangio-the-greatest-formula-1-driver-ever

30 minutes ago, Sakae said:

One question that remains unanswered, at least I think so, how truthful is in that claim, that Vettel was driving vastly superior RB all those years when he was there.

The Red Bull was the best car from 2009-2013. Any opinion to the contrary is delusional. 

[Sakae 0]

8 minutes ago, VicVenom said:

2 of his Championships went down to the wire. Both of them shouldn't. He had the best car by a mile. You should consult a doctor if you think the Ferrari was equal in 2010 or 2012.  What's your excuse for him there? He had the best car by a mile in the other two as well. 

You are aware that Alonso was selected as best drivers amongst his peers? Both in 2010 vs the entire grid. And in 2013 against Vettel in particular? 

That study was horses##t.

You're wrong anyway. Alonso was rated higher than Vettel on the list. Vettel barely made the top 10, - https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/fangio-the-greatest-formula-1-driver-ever

The Red Bull was the best car from 2009-2013. Any opinion to the contrary is delusional. 

If you want to preach, rather than talk, than I hate it to break it to you, but you could be on a wrong forum. BTW, "that study" in your link is not study which I have been referring to.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

2 hours ago, Sakae said:

If you want to preach, rather than talk, than I hate it to break it to you, but you could be on a wrong forum. BTW, "that study" in your link is not study which I have been referring to.

Sakea you might disagree with what Vic wrote but he argued his point presenting some facts, I agree that it is difficult to asses which driver is the best but you'll have to admit that the opinion of fellow drivers or of journalists that follow the sport on a daily basis is significant, we might disagree with their view but if someone agrues his case by presenting such opinions then calling these arguments preaching is a bit unfair. And you'll have to admit that not often someone writes in this forum without cliaming that his or her favourite driver is the absolute best, Vic uses Kimi's pic and as a consequence I assume that Kimi is his favourite driver but I haven't seen him say that Kimi is blowing away the competion, to me it seems someone who is trying to express a balanced view. My view might be different from his, and I presume that yours is also different from his but from his limited number of posts it seems that we have found a new "friend" who is willing to make an effort and give us an opinion as unbiased as possible. Furthermore since the forum is losing members by the day when we have a new member willing to discuss his opinions with us in a civilised fashion then IMHO we should welcome him or her 

[Sakae 0]

Quote

2 of his Championships went down to the wire. Both of them shouldn't. He had the best car by a mile.

You should consult a doctor if you think the Ferrari was equal in 2010 or 2012.  

What's your excuse for him there?

He had the best car by a mile in the other two as well. 

@Publius Cornelius Scipio

(i) I've never made that claim comparing Ferrari with RB of that period. (It was actually McLaren, and the assessor of competitiveness between two teams was Paddy Lowe in person).  No need for doctor.

(ii) What's with the interrogative tone, that I have to excuse Vettel's results? If anything, one could perhaps with some digging prove that RB was not at the top, and in certain situations RB was struggling. There is no need for further discussion, even less for some useless excuses.

(iii) He (Vettel) had the best car by a (country) mile?

Really, says who? This is the mindless preaching of a subjective judgement and masquerading it as "facts". His conclusion is clear "question of preference", or "no system" as it is known in analytical world. Calling for, and stating subjective preferences generates a subjective opinion, and output cannot be assessed in factual terms, as you must know, counsellor.  

If our new friend has some specific data and we can engage in reasoning, then I would welcome that. For now I however I doubt that he can do that, and he appears to be preaching whatever floats his boat. 

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

4 minutes ago, Sakae said:

@Publius Cornelius Scipio

(i) I've never made that claim comparing Ferrari with RB of that period. (It was actually McLaren, and the assessor of competitiveness between two teams was Paddy Lowe in person).  No need for doctor.

(ii) What's with the interrogative tone, that I have to excuse Vettel's results? If anything, one could perhaps with some digging prove that RB was not at the top, and in certain situations RB was struggling. There is no need for further discussion, even less for some useless excuses.

(iii) He (Vettel) had the best car by a (country) mile?

Really, says who? This is the mindless preaching of a subjective judgement and masquerading it as "facts". It is clear "question of preference", or "no system" as it is known in analytical world. Calling for, and stating subjective preferences generates a subjective opinion, and output cannot be assessed in factual terms.  If our new friend has some specific data and we can engage in reasoning, then I would welcome that. For now I however I doubt that he can do that, and he appears to be preaching whatever floats his boat. 

I think that those were Vic's points, I really don't remember all the details about those years and I should check but I remember that many people within Ferrari say that on at least one occasion they caused Alonso to lose the WDC because of mistakes by the pit wall. In fairness IMHO that also means that it wasn't a walk in the part for Vettel and he certainly had to work very hard for his 4 WDCs

[Sakae 0]

1 hour ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

And you'll have to admit that not often someone writes in this forum without cliaming that his or her favourite driver is the absolute best.

I am hoping that I am consistent with characterization - one of the best. Definite claim is impossible.

[Sakae 0]

7 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I think that those were Vic's points, I really don't remember all the details about those years and I should check but I remember that many people within Ferrari say that on at least one occasion they caused Alonso to lose the WDC because of mistakes by the pit wall. In fairness IMHO that also means that it wasn't a walk in the part for Vettel and he certainly had to work very hard for his 4 WDCs

To clarify, yes, those were his claims, however since you thought I came down hard on him, my was merely explanation of my point of view.  Vettel really had competition in that period, and perhaps it was Vettel, who made Newey to look good.