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Emmcee

2017 Mclaren

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11 hours ago, Quiet One said:

I don't want McLaren to become the next Mercedes. They don't really deserve it. At least they got rid of Ron, that's a step forward. I would like they could at least maintain their position in the midfield they held last year, and watch Alonso shinning more than the drivers ahead of him. That's spectacle. 

Also, welcome back, Caesar. Morituri te salutant. ;)

Masochist.

But right.

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This all comes down to them failing to secure financial backing from a major sponsor. This downward spiral has happened since the departure of Mercedes and many forget just how long Mclaren and Mercedes had there relationship. 1995 was the first season Mercedes came in with Mclaren, that's a longtime to get out of a program and start an new one especially when the program revolves around the most important element of the car. Mclaren will be back but it will take time and I feel they still are not in the situation they were when senna left, that left a massive hole that took almost ten years to rectify.

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Many years of mismanagement will take many years to fix. Or, perhaps, a deep structural change within the organization.

After all, doesn't it appear that the engine problems simply take attention away from the chassis? As someone already pointed out (here or elsewhere), McLaren has been under-performing for years regardless of engine supplier.

Remember McLaren had a Mercedes engine up to 2014, a season when Williams beat them in the WCC (not quite twice the points?) despite being Williams 1st year with the Mercedes engine. So, as you see, it would appear McLaren has deep, deep problems that cannot be blamed on Honda.

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Honda was clearly too naif or too incompetent, but those guys can learn and have more than enough backing, Honda will deliver in the end. I am sure about that, more than McLaren really delivering. Ron was always a guy with more ego than talent, and I do believe the guy was immensely talented. In the end, was too much ego and too little brain.

Many signs points toward an aero deficiency on the new McLaren (as in the previous ones). Blaming just Honda is the easy way out. But De La Rosa pointed a few days ago that the car really struggles a lot and lacks downforce. They still have an uphill struggle to even get to Williams levels of performance. 

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Yep. I've heard a friend comment on the aero issue. He didn't mention DLR but he spoke about teams like Mercedes sacrificing some of the power of the engine in exchange for additional downforce. How about that. Darn.

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What did Pedro de la Rosa said?

Williams was good in 2014 , and got worse in 2015 and 2016, so i take their good performance in 2014 as being lucky with first year of new rules.

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I think you can't compare first year results after a major shakeup as it's just down to interpretation of the rules, the following year is usually more acuarate.

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"I understand the pessimism because we have not had a good week, but there are teams that have done less laps and with worse times, and I think it does not make much sense to speculate. I think we could have made a low 1:19 easily, but just like everyone else , maybe Mercedes could do a low 1:17, so lets not trust lap times ". FA

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Surely we have to trust lap times. They are what they are, real and factual. Whether such data are representative of respective cars potential we will learn however much later; we all can agree on that. Maybe more accurate assessment over the one we know today will be available already in next few days. I am just hoping it will not take again first six races before we find out what we have on the tarmac.

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1 hour ago, Sakae said:

Surely we have to trust lap times. They are what they are, real and factual. Whether such data are representative of respective cars potential we will learn however much later; we all can agree on that. Maybe more accurate assessment over the one we know today will be available already in next few days. I am just hoping it will not take again first six races before we find out what we have on the tarmac.

Why do we have to trust lap times?

Do you remember how good was Ferrari F150 during tests in 2011, and how bad was it during season.

Do you remember Ferrari F2012 a.k.a. Clifford? 

Or Mclaren with octopussy exhaust?

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I'm with Sakae on this one. The cars are where they are. Sure, things can change... but that's exactly it, they need to change for them to be different. As things stand, the numbers are what they are, not different, but what they are.

In short, better up front than behind. It's a freaking race.

Having said this, we'll see. The season is not over until is over... and it has not even started yet.

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5 hours ago, maure said:

I'm with Sakae on this one. The cars are where they are. Sure, things can change... but that's exactly it, they need to change for them to be different. As things stand, the numbers are what they are, not different, but what they are.

In short, better up front than behind. It's a freaking race.

Having said this, we'll see. The season is not over until is over... and it has not even started yet.

How can people with any experience in the sport say such concrete things? Surely we all can't be mind readers and know everyone's testing program and what there intentions are, people don't look at things realistically, if you owned one of these teams, would you be ready to show everyone what you have yet? Be stupid if you did, especially since teams have got time to make adjustments before Melbourne. I just can't comprehend how people think this is the pecking order are you for real? I thought the more you watch something the more you learn about it, not less. IMHO we have no bloody idea who is where ATM and people can speculate all they like but unless you know the testing program Iam sorry but you have no idea what your on about. Even Melbourne won't give us a clear indication, we have to wait to maybe 3/4th race. Truth my hurt but Iam being realistic and using common sense, even Nostradamus wouldn't know, so how do forum regulars? Sounds pretty pedantic doesn't it? That's why I don't post here much anymore, people's expectation and one way biased comments do nothing but frustrate me. Just look at the comments above, a world champion driver with over 10 years experience in the sport as a driver said the same thing, but what would he know hey? So for sakaes sake Seb is the best driver in the best team and when he doesn't do as expected it's the car that was setup for alonso, this car will still be setup for alonso if Seb doesn't win hey?

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7 hours ago, Emmcee said:

How can people with any experience in the sport say such concrete things? Surely we all can't be mind readers and know everyone's testing program and what there intentions are, people don't look at things realistically, if you owned one of these teams, would you be ready to show everyone what you have yet? Be stupid if you did, especially since teams have got time to make adjustments before Melbourne. I just can't comprehend how people think this is the pecking order are you for real? I thought the more you watch something the more you learn about it, not less. IMHO we have no bloody idea who is where ATM and people can speculate all they like but unless you know the testing program Iam sorry but you have no idea what your on about. Even Melbourne won't give us a clear indication, we have to wait to maybe 3/4th race. Truth my hurt but Iam being realistic and using common sense, even Nostradamus wouldn't know, so how do forum regulars? Sounds pretty pedantic doesn't it? That's why I don't post here much anymore, people's expectation and one way biased comments do nothing but frustrate me. Just look at the comments above, a world champion driver with over 10 years experience in the sport as a driver said the same thing, but what would he know hey? So for sakaes sake Seb is the best driver in the best team and when he doesn't do as expected it's the car that was setup for alonso, this car will still be setup for alonso if Seb doesn't win hey?

I cannot speak for Sakae but you are missing the point of my comment.

There is no denying that things can change. But there is no denying that a provisional pecking order has been established.

After all, no matter how anyone spins it, there is zero evidence with which to claim that McLaren is ahead of Mercedes, Ferrari, or RBR. Similarly, there is concrete evidence that Mercedes, Ferrari, and RBR are ahead of McLaren. Why? Because that is the data we have. Not speculation but data.

Can things change? Of course. But that's where they are now.

Regarding who of the (currently) top three teams is stronger, it's difficult to say precisely. Based on the data we have, Mercedes is very well placed, Ferrari is better than expected, and RBR seems able to be in the fight. Crucially, these observations would be different if the data were different.

Summing up, please notice the use of the data currently available in order to draw certain conclusions. There is no need to marry these conclusions but there is no need to deny them either.

Tentative? Yes. Meaningless? No.

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17 minutes ago, maure said:

I cannot speak for Sakae but you are missing the point of my comment.

There is no denying that things can change. But there is no denying that a provisional pecking order has been established.

After all, no matter how anyone spins it, there is zero evidence with which to claim that McLaren is ahead of Mercedes, Ferrari, or RBR. Similarly, there is concrete evidence that Mercedes, Ferrari, and RBR are ahead of McLaren. Why? Because that is the data we have. Not speculation but data.

Can things change? Of course. But that's where they are now.

Regarding who of the (currently) top three teams is stronger, it's difficult to say precisely. Based on the data we have, Mercedes is very well placed, Ferrari is better than expected, and RBR seems able to be in the fight. Crucially, these observations would be different if the data were different.

Summing up, please notice the use of the data currently available in order to draw certain conclusions. There is no need to marry these conclusions but there is no need to deny them either.

Tentative? Yes. Meaningless? No.

I am on the same page.

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25 minutes ago, maure said:

I cannot speak for Sakae but you are missing the point of my comment.

There is no denying that things can change. But there is no denying that a provisional pecking order has been established.

After all, no matter how anyone spins it, there is zero evidence with which to claim that McLaren is ahead of Mercedes, Ferrari, or RBR. Similarly, there is concrete evidence that Mercedes, Ferrari, and RBR are ahead of McLaren. Why? Because that is the data we have. Not speculation but data.

Can things change? Of course. But that's where they are now.

Regarding who of the (currently) top three teams is stronger, it's difficult to say precisely. Based on the data we have, Mercedes is very well placed, Ferrari is better than expected, and RBR seems able to be in the fight. Crucially, these observations would be different if the data were different.

Summing up, please notice the use of the data currently available in order to draw certain conclusions. There is no need to marry these conclusions but there is no need to deny them either.

Tentative? Yes. Meaningless? No.

So, if only mclared made timed lap, due to data that are available, they would be WCC favorites.

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Had McLaren made it to the front consistently over 8 days in similar manner like Ferrari and Mercedes, than yes, potential for good standing this year would have been great. However back to mother earth, that's not what happened, so we do not know, but it doesn't look good.

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1 hour ago, Caesar said:

So, if only mclared made timed lap, due to data that are available, they would be WCC favorites.

If all cars broke down except the McLaren, and broke down so badly that they could not make a single timed lap over 4 days of testing, then McLaren would unequivocally be ahead of the rest.

The WCC favorites part is your hypothesis on steroids, i.e., a fantasy. You are being deliberately silly, Caesar.

All you have to do is answer the following question. If you were a driver and could choose a team, right now, based on the tests, which one would you choose to drive with? Haas? TR? McLaren? Nope. None of those. Based on the data, not on ifs, we all know which ones you would consider. You and everyone else.

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12 minutes ago, maure said:

If all cars broke down except the McLaren, and broke down so badly that they could not make a single timed lap over 4 days of testing, then McLaren would unequivocally be ahead of the rest.

The WCC favorites part is your hypothesis on steroids, i.e., a fantasy. You are being deliberately silly, Caesar.

All you have to do is answer the following question. If you were a driver and could choose a team, right now, based on the tests, which one would you choose to drive with? Haas? TR? McLaren? Nope. None of those. Based on the data, not on ifs, we all know which ones you would consider. You and everyone else.

Don't be funny and don't try to make something smart out of your theorie that we have to take this data as fact because we have nothing else. 

We will know order after first few races, not after first test.

That is what i and Emmcee are trying to point out.

No hard feelings. ;-)

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Pecking order is not a static entity frozen in ice, and since teams will work on improvements through the year, nothing is "known" and certain until last days of this season. What is however known already are reported data as we get them day by day, and while no one is predicting winners as yet, some of us are playing with probabilities. Two teams are looking good, others are not that good at the moment, and some are pretending that they drive slow on purpose (beats me why).

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6 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Pecking order is not a static entity frozen in ice, and since teams will work on improvements through the year, nothing is "known" and certain until last days of this season. What is however known already are reported data as we get them day by day, and while no one is predicting winners as yet, some of us are playing with probabilities. Two teams are looking good, others are not that good at the moment, and some are pretending that they drive slow on purpose (beats me why).

That is what i was saying

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