Alonso Moving On

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

22 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

And as I said few post earlier, it does'nt help bagging the engine partner in public and threatening to leave either. It's adding fuel to fire in an already delicate situation

it's tru that "it's adding fuel in an already difficult situation", you made a very good point, the problem is that all this is having far wider consequences than racing, I'd be curious to have a look at the financial situation of McLaren for instance, they haven't been able to attract many sponsors in recent years because they were not very competitive, should they drop Honda and get a customer Mercedes engine it's not as if the last few years disappear and they can start from when they left, the substantial fall in revenues will have long lasting consequences for McLaren, in a sense they are struggling for their own existance

[BradSpeedMan 6]

4 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

it's tru that "it's adding fuel in an already difficult situation", you made a very good point, the problem is that all this is having far wider consequences than racing, I'd be curious to have a look at the financial situation of McLaren for instance, they haven't been able to attract many sponsors in recent years because they were not very competitive, should they drop Honda and get a customer Mercedes engine it's not as if the last few years disappear and they can start from when they left, the substantial fall in revenues will have long lasting consequences for McLaren, in a sense they are struggling for their own existance

+1

[Emmcee 0]

Iam expecting mclaren to stick it out and Honda will eventually come good.

[radical-one 0]

1 hour ago, BradSpeedMan said:

And as I said few post earlier, it does'nt help bagging the engine partner in public and threatening to leave either. It's adding fuel to fire in an already delicate situation

U did the replying thanks.

 

[Emmcee 0]

Yeah but what will happen when you keep pulling a dogs tail? He will eventually bite and he is probably tired of all the "politician promises". As he is only human, watching drivers win when he knows he can and should be, would be frustrating. I don't condone some of his body language but you got to understand his frustration.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

1 hour ago, Emmcee said:

Yeah but what will happen when you keep pulling a dogs tail? He will eventually bite and he is probably tired of all the "politician promises". As he is only human, watching drivers win when he knows he can and should be, would be frustrating. I don't condone some of his body language but you got to understand his frustration.

I would also add that I don't believe that when McLaren and Honda agreed their deal the deal was "we will give you an engine and some money" but rather "we will give you a competitive engine etc etc etc", not even Sauber would settle for an engine "whatsoever" so it is only human that the party that has fullfilled its obligations isn't 100% happy if the party that hasn't fullfilled its side doesn't seem to be able to find a way out. I am surprised that McLAren has stuck to this deal for 3 long years, probably next time they shall include some performance clause in their contracts with their suppliers.

I really wish Honda well, if they failed (once again, and this time in quite s hocking way) it wouldn't be good for F1 as a whole (but they need to listen, being stubborn and refusing any outisde help when you're in such a desperate situation is plain silly)

[Sakae 0]

Honda should listen - to whom? McLaren? McLaren has no clue about hybrid business, and no one knows more about Honda engine than Honda themselves. Ferrari was also described in terms which made probably Enzo turning in his resting place, yet they prove all "must be made in GB" nonsense wrong. Ferrari is just fine, Honda will be fine, as long as all barking just shuts up, and let them finish the darn job. There is of course danger that Tokyo will order withdraw, having enough of mud slinging on their name.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

1 hour ago, Sakae said:

Honda should listen - to whom? McLaren? McLaren has no clue about hybrid business

McLaren knows how an engine should be structured and were the various bits should be, and they have contacts with several people who could have helped Honda, RBR did the same with Renault and now the Renault engine is very close to Mercedes and Ferrari, Honda wanted to do all in house and they have turned into a laughing stock. Other manufacturers have been working on these PUs for years, it's only reasonable that they are further ahead and know more, maybe Honda should have hired someone from Mercedes or Ferrari, no?

[Sakae 0]

Mario Ilien was hired by RBR to assist Renault. My understanding is there was no significant improvement after his one-piston trials, Mario stepped back, and Renault recovered under their own steam. Sitting at my keyboard is hardly a place to have clear understanding of situational analysis at Honda plant, however there are some basic principles which do apply in engineering. One of them is common sense. Illien cannot work on Honda, unless he wants to loose all of his customers, and who else is there? Besides, do we really know what the problem is? Is it merely reliability-centric, or energy modules inadequacies? We do not know severity of issues they are facing. Is core design flawed, or it is just a few modules that need to be redesigned or re-developed? Forgive me, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with decision to have PU made in Japan. That, in my mind, is their very last problem. More importantly I think is conflict and challenge to manage it between keeping up with racing schedule, and implementation of remedial measures, which have many phases (design, validation, reliability runs, manufacturing, and then getting it to England - logistical). That all takes time, and there is none. Honda also might be considering at some point deploying second working group for facilitating development rate of change which are characteristic in the F1. 

I am not here to defend Honda, but I love Japan, and as a technical person I have remote understanding of situation they are probably in. Maybe my earlier suggestion for them to step down and withdraw from racing for several months or a season would have some merit to it.

“By seeking and blundering we learn.” 
― Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[Emmcee 0]

5 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I would also add that I don't believe that when McLaren and Honda agreed their deal the deal was "we will give you an engine and some money" but rather "we will give you a competitive engine etc etc etc", not even Sauber would settle for an engine "whatsoever" so it is only human that the party that has fullfilled its obligations isn't 100% happy if the party that hasn't fullfilled its side doesn't seem to be able to find a way out. I am surprised that McLAren has stuck to this deal for 3 long years, probably next time they shall include some performance clause in their contracts with their suppliers.

I really wish Honda well, if they failed (once again, and this time in quite s hocking way) it wouldn't be good for F1 as a whole (but they need to listen, being stubborn and refusing any outisde help when you're in such a desperate situation is plain silly)

Yeah exactly, I think mclaren has stayed because there is no real better option that would benefit them sooner.

[radical-one 0]

I rest my case.

I know for sure that whether it is McLaren or Sauber or whatever team Honda will end up supplying going forward, Honda will come up with a better engine. They just need some time. They will make it. 

Merc did not succeed until their 4th year and with the benefit of having Shumacher as their driver for several years. 

RB / Renault enjoyed years of success but on the catching up for the past 2-3 years as well.

 

[Emmcee 0]

I agree, they'll find something that others won't have. Just have to look at how unique there v-tec engines are. If you've ever drivin one and got to the point where v-tec kicks in, you'll know what I mean.

[radical-one 0]

I know exactly what you mean, my friend just bought a Vezel hybrid and it's so torquey without a turbo.

[Emmcee 0]

Yeah I own two high performance turbo cars and although I wouldn't ever swap and go back NA, there is no way I'll have a NA of the line if he's tuned right, to much lag, however once boost kicks in its another story. But what iam trying to get at is people always think because it's turbo it's faster, that's not always the case, a NA is always going to be more responsive as it's looking for its air as it takes it from outside the car. Where a turbo creates its own air by the exhaust and the turbine internally in the car. I've always compared a turbo and a NA on a start line like a fat dude on a couch with food everywhere compared to a hunter looking for food, the hungrier one is going to be more aggressive from the word go. Boosted cars are so easy to get large power out of but are so so trempremetal if done rushed or incorrectly. Actually the only car I would go back and drive that's NA is a Honda so there you go.  The one thing that peeves me of in the whole situation is people's lack of respect and think Honda is stupid. They make some of the best jdm cars ever that became gods on the car scenes. They make one of if not the best bike in the world, best garden equipment, nice boat motors, so they know what there doing, just hubrid turbos are a new area for them.

Look at Subaru and it's BRZ. I know it's a Toyota gt86 or a scion or whatever you wanna call it but subaru only entered the venture because of Toyota and there knowledge on rear wheel drive cars. The Brz is the first rear wheel drive car to wear the subaru emblem. Subaru knew it would be impossible to close the gap and become dominant in the two wheel drive category like they have been in the awd category for so many years. So it's collaboration with Toyota allowed them to enter with a piece of mind that an already well expierenced manufacturer with the experience there after is working at there side. I don't know how many hours of r&d this deal alone saves let alone money.

[Sakae 0]

Honda is working on hybrid technology some odd 20+ years as relevant to road cars. It's just F1 style hybrids somewhat (I think) took them by a surprise. It is well documented that it was exactly this PU technology which lure them back into a snake pit. Quote, "Without hybrid PUs, there was no point to return".

[Emmcee 0]

It's the integration of the turbo to I beleive as they have never made anything turbo.

[radical-one 0]

9 hours ago, Emmcee said:

Yeah I own two high performance turbo cars and although I wouldn't ever swap and go back NA, there is no way I'll have a NA of the line if he's tuned right, to much lag, however once boost kicks in its another story. But what iam trying to get at is people always think because it's turbo it's faster, that's not always the case, a NA is always going to be more responsive as it's looking for its air as it takes it from outside the car. Where a turbo creates its own air by the exhaust and the turbine internally in the car. I've always compared a turbo and a NA on a start line like a fat dude on a couch with food everywhere compared to a hunter looking for food, the hungrier one is going to be more aggressive from the word go. Boosted cars are so easy to get large power out of but are so so trempremetal if done rushed or incorrectly. Actually the only car I would go back and drive that's NA is a Honda so there you go.  The one thing that peeves me of in the whole situation is people's lack of respect and think Honda is stupid. They make some of the best jdm cars ever that became gods on the car scenes. They make one of if not the best bike in the world, best garden equipment, nice boat motors, so they know what there doing, just hubrid turbos are a new area for them.

Look at Subaru and it's BRZ. I know it's a Toyota gt86 or a scion or whatever you wanna call it but subaru only entered the venture because of Toyota and there knowledge on rear wheel drive cars. The Brz is the first rear wheel drive car to wear the subaru emblem. Subaru knew it would be impossible to close the gap and become dominant in the two wheel drive category like they have been in the awd category for so many years. So it's collaboration with Toyota allowed them to enter with a piece of mind that an already well expierenced manufacturer with the experience there after is working at there side. I don't know how many hours of r&d this deal alone saves let alone money.

They we call them trio los bobos here ( BRZ, 86, Scion). I heard that most of the RD is done by Toyota. A lot of them install turbo kits to get better performance but some takes them off after few months. I guess for longevity issues

[radical-one 0]

9 hours ago, Sakae said:

Honda is working on hybrid technology some odd 20+ years as relevant to road cars. It's just F1 style hybrids somewhat (I think) took them by a surprise. It is well documented that it was exactly this PU technology which lure them back into a snake pit. Quote, "Without hybrid PUs, there was no point to return".

Yep they are learning the hard way. Although there's no shortcut to their situation, I think they can get it right sooner than later.

Everyone in the team just needs to chip in their patience. Sometimes good things takes time to build.

[Emmcee 0]

1 hour ago, radical-one said:

They we call them trio los bobos here ( BRZ, 86, Scion). I heard that most of the RD is done by Toyota. A lot of them install turbo kits to get better performance but some takes them off after few months. I guess for longevity issues

I knew Toyota did most of the r&d, that was done by keiichi tsuchiya. That's why subaru went ahead, they wouldn't have done this alone let alone been successful at it. People don't realise that these cars weren't made to go quick, there a drift car and it's chassis is built around the car being able to slide under control with minimal effort. You want a fast Japanese car? Buy a skyline or supra, but me personally I love the 4cyl wrx I have over my skyline. It's light nimble body with awd and a punchy 2.0l turbo lowered on custom coil overs, much more fun IMO to drive than a large powerful car.

[radical-one 0]

6 minutes ago, Emmcee said:

I knew Toyota did most of the r&d, that was done by keiichi tsuchiya. That's why subaru went ahead, they wouldn't have done this alone let alone been successful at it. People don't realise that these cars weren't made to go quick, there a drift car and it's chassis is built around the car being able to slide under control with minimal effort.

Totally true. It is made to go full throttle on curbs without losing the rear due to excessive torque. Some wannabes are just wannabes.

[radical-one 0]

 As I thought ....

‘Alonso has 32m reasons to stay’

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

1 hour ago, radical-one said:

 As I thought ....

‘Alonso has 32m reasons to stay’

do you expect Nando to work for free? they all get paid you know... the difference between Nando and, say, Hamilton or Vettel is that Nando is asked to race against F1 cars using a GP2 engine, Hamilto and Vettel riceive both a lot of money and a good engine

[Sakae 0]

Is there a problem? There are those who do believe that he has left Ferrari voluntarily.  If so, I am sure he has evaluated risk of such step, and now - well buddy, deal with it. All what radical is saying, for not much work, you get paid well.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

2 hours ago, Sakae said:

Is there a problem? There are those who do believe that he has left Ferrari voluntarily.  If so, I am sure he has evaluated risk of such step, and now - well buddy, deal with it. All what radical is saying, for not much work, you get paid well.

Sakae my friend they all complain, you correctly pointed out in another thread that Kimi was quite vocal last Sunday but there is one set of rules when people have to talk about Nando and one for the others, Nando is not the most vocal critic of Honda, both Vandoorne and Boulier have given interviews much more critical of Honda than Alonso, so why no one talks about them? Is it because in this way the bad guy becomes Alonso and so it's not only Honda's failures that matter but the fact that Alonso is a difficult person?

Regarding what he signed up to I find it really hard to believe that he signed up to a lot of money and nothing else, I'm sure that the other side of the bargain was that Honda could deliver a proper F1 engine, that never happened and it's not the end of the world but if Nando says that he hasn't got the speed to match the others in a straight line he's telling the truth, that's the problem. I just don't understand why it's fair to criticise anyone when they don't deliver (Renault, Ferrari, etc) but not Honda, Honda should take criticism on the chin and try to do a good job and prove their critics wrong, when they will have done they will be in a position to take offence at what Nando says, now they don't have that luxury, now they should be ashamed of their failures and work hard to rectify them 

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

Nando is going to race at Indy with an Honda powered car, excellent news, I hope that he can have a chance of doing well, he deserves it