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lipstick79

Honda

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Conditions are really not that clear that all race outcomes came down to only which engine - "factory v. customer" - is mounted. 

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On ‎06‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 3:42 PM, Emmcee said:

ANOTHER double DNF for Honda
I`m thinkin next race - 7days, next week
Why not, dust down last season`s PU and use that!!
It finishes a race!!

 

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Goal is to develop a better power unit and close the gap. That will not happen just driving around with limited in potential an old unit. Besides - mounting interfacing is different.

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Yes, but not at the wrong side of the grid. They want to finish first. The last year thingies weren't good enough to get them there (claimed Honda), which is why they changed. They need time, and take notice, it is better and better from a race to race. Mind you, this year is most likely written off in racing terms. They are using races to develop the car and PU. I have full trust in capabilities of Japanese guys. Moreover, for them right now I think it is more than just participation, but pride - we did it "my way".

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50 minutes ago, lipstick79 said:

 

I never said that, you quoted me saying something I didn't say.

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I don't understand why they don't give up, of course it would be a blot on their reputation but going forward in this way can only result in a bigger blot in the reputation, the situation is quite simply farcical, after 3 years there's no longer any plausible excuse for such a farce, their approach is quite simply wrong and there is no light at the end of the tunnel, they obviously have no clue about how to solve this situation. Woulnd't it be better to hand McLaren USD100m so that they can pay for a set of Mercedes engine and concentrate on MotoGP or other things were Honda has a chance to succeed?

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That WOULD be a bad decision
Taking THEIR ball home, because things are not going their way!!!

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3 minutes ago, Sakae said:

They need time, and take notice, it is better and better from a race to race. Mind you, this year is most likely written off in racing terms. They are using races to develop the car and PU. ... Moreover, for them right now I think it is more than just participation, but pride - we did it "my way".

they have had plkenty of time!!! That's the real problem here. This is is written off, last year it was written off, the one before again written off, they had several years to develop their PU and were able to do that, it's that simple, Honda at the moment is not capable of building a half decent F1 power unit. They might be great at building engines for motorbikes or for road cars but sadly they have proved that they don't have what it takes to come up with an half decent engine for F1.

And you're right when you talk about their "pride", they want to do it their way and it doesn't work, pride is a capital sin... it's about time that these guys wake up

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2 minutes ago, lipstick79 said:

That WOULD be a bad decision
Taking THEIR ball home, because things are not going their way!!!

it's not that things aren't going their way, it's that have become a joke and so far have only managed to prove that they can't build an F1 engine, sadly it's a bit different

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Mercedes started from nothing.
But Mercedes HAVE developed the PU
Ferrari are catching Merecedes MORE than Honda

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Now hold on guys. They let us know there are some parts which will require long lead times before they could be replaced. How do we know that they are not running detuned engines for sake of reliability? Time, give them more time. That's all. Compare development time lines, and Honda is not that much different then bunch of them.

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1 hour ago, lipstick79 said:

 

Mercedes started from nothing....

I've heard some stories how long they are at it, and based on dates given, MB is on racing hybrids most likely 7th year. I do not wish to put this forward as a fact, but it seems they have longest history with development than any other of current suppliers. Then add their resources applied to this project, and you may soften your judgement of Honda. Moreover, Honda came in under homologation rules,.. It's all complicated.

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1 hour ago, Sakae said:

How do we know that they are not running detuned engines for sake of reliability? 

we know that they are not running detuned engines for sake of reliability because their engines are not reliable :tiphat: we know that their engines break down even when they're detuned. 

So Mercedes started working on their PU 7 years ago (I thought that it was a bit longer than that but that's not the point), Honda started working on the PU 5 years ago, they had the advantage of knowing what some of their peers had done (ie how to place the various ancillaries around the engine itself, etc) and what have they managed so far? they came up with a very very expensive GP2 engine :rolleyes: I feel for them, I like Honda as a company and I think that they did a terrific job in the 80s, but still we have to call spade a spade and admit that they had plenty of time and resources to come up with an half decent engine and they haven't managed to

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Re Sakae :
....they are not running detuned engines for sake of reliability?

>OBVIOUSLY this is NOT the case because, the Honda PU is NOT reliable
So how about turning the power UP - MIGHT even actually FINISH a race then!!

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They have to run in saving mode for so long, until replacement parts - now under construction in Japan - will be ready to replace those currently in use. At least that's my understanding. I know it is difficult to piece a picture together for non-technical people, but I have patience. In Sep all bets are off. By then we need to see a steep recovery to better places. It might not be regular podium, but mingling with cars on pointy end of the grid should be possible, one would hope. Should they fail even then, McLaren might do something drastic and severe ties with Honda.

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45 minutes ago, Sakae said:

They have to run in saving mode for so long, until replacement parts - now under construction in Japan - will be ready to replace those currently in use. 

if that was the case the situation would be even worse that I initially thought, they would be a joke (and I don't think that they are), they should have no major problems in building 4 pieces of the same part rather than 2

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19 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

if that was the case the situation would be even worse that I initially thought, they would be a joke (and I don't think that they are), they should have no major problems in building 4 pieces of the same part rather than 2

I think there is misunderstanding of the subject. What is being discussed is not shortage of spare parts for existing design, but countermeasures to problems that were discovered in Barcelona. Parts (I am not sure how many) have to be re-designed, manufactured, tested, and placed into a system. That takes time, and I think that's what Honda was talking about. At the moment they are using some interim measures to contain their issues, but obviously they cannot run at the system limit, a reason why I think engines are most likely detuned. I would expect June/July for new design to show up.

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15 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Parts (I am not sure how many) have to be re-designed, manufactured, tested, and placed into a system. That takes time

I know as a matter of fact that it takes Ferrari a few days to do that, and I know that some tother teams are even more efficient so that cannot be Honda' problem, you just have to look how quickly they react when the same happens to their MotoGP or SBK bikes

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Depends which area is affected. From what I heard, in Honda's case fuel "tank" had to be moved elsewhere and redesigned, and I can imagine that impact on its environment could be extensive. This is not something they will do Saturday morning in leisure rate...

Please understand that I am in my mind piecing full mosaic of activities based on sporadic information we hear in various interviews. I am merely on my own experience filling blanks what such situation might encompass.

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Re:...fuel "tank" had to be moved elsewhere and redesigned

>That SHOWS the limited design concept.
EVERYBODY (U DON`T have to be technical) knows that,
The MORE fuel that you chuck at the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine),
the FASTER you will GO - that IS how engines WORK - give them  fuel ... off ...
they ... go...

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On ‎09‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 5:50 PM, Sakae said:

I've heard some stories how long they are at it, and based on dates given, MB is on racing hybrids most likely 7th year. I do not wish to put this forward as a fact, but it seems they have longest history with development than any other of current suppliers. Then add their resources applied to this project, and you may soften your judgement of Honda. Moreover, Honda came in under homologation rules,.. It's all complicated.

Re:....McLaren might do something drastic and severe ties with Honda.
>That will NOT happen in, the foreseeable future. Whatever happens
NOT just because of the £100M payment  negotiated by Ron but, the
BIG picture - THAT is where the BIG money IS.
Via the LAST Honda-McLaren collaboration, Mclaren HAVE negotiated
some difficult times   Peugeot ...  Then the GOOD times with Mercedes, before
the Mercedes works team  
If you do the same as everybody else - U R the same as everybody else 
Don`t be the same,  be better   !!!

 

The resources available to Honda-Mclaren IS fanominal
Just look at Mclaren`s exclusivity deal - £100 MILLION

I WOULD rather have that than, a fizzy drink (Red Bull)

                                                                     

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7 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

they have had plkenty of time!!! That's the real problem here. This is is written off, last year it was written off, the one before again written off, they had several years to develop their PU and were able to do that, it's that simple, Honda at the moment is not capable of building a half decent F1 power unit. They might be great at building engines for motorbikes or for road cars but sadly they have proved that they don't have what it takes to come up with an half decent engine for F1.

And you're right when you talk about their "pride", they want to do it their way and it doesn't work, pride is a capital sin... it's about time that these guys wake up

It's just the hybrid turbo there having issues with and due to the tight regulations, they can't explore the issues as in depth and close the gap as quickly as they used to for this very reason. Did Honda bite of more than they can chew? Maybe but least there still trying to sort it out and with fernando driving the way he is, least they will be kept of the rear of the field anyway.

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