lipstick79

Alonso

398 posts in this topic


On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 9:36 AM, VicVenom said:

Common sense. 

Verstappen would destroy Vettel and get the better of Hamilton. It's clear that Alonso and Verstappen are the two best drivers these days. 

Well, I think Verstappen sort of needs to regularly outperform DR before one can make that claim.

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30 minutes ago, Ruslan said:

Well, I think Verstappen sort of needs to regularly outperform DR before one can make that claim.

He is doing that,

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40 minutes ago, VicVenom said:

He is doing that,

Not quite:

2016: DR had 256 points, Max had 204.

DR had a 1st, 4 2nds, 3 3rds. Max had a 1st, 4 2nds, 2 3rds.

In those races where they both finished (starting race 5 when they were teammates)....DR finished ahead of Max in 8 out of 15 cases.

In the all important qualifying battles, DR qualified ahead of Max in 10 out of 17 cases.

In 2017 DR qualified ahead of Max in only 3 out of 8 cases.

In races where they both finished, DR finished head of Max in 1 out of 2 cases (Max has retired out of 4 races, DR out of 2).

DR has had a 1st and 3 3rds. Max has 1 3rd so far.

DR has 92 points, Max has 45.

So.....I don't think that Max has really yet "regularly outperformed" DR yet.

 

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Verstappen joined RBR in 2016 first time only in Spanish GP, with a season in full swing. He won that race, didn't he? DC had some jump on him last year in terms of points due to diff. time lines.

I think stats can be sometimes abused.

Edited by Sakae

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25 minutes ago, Ruslan said:

Not quite:

2016: DR had 256 points, Max had 204.

DR had a 1st, 4 2nds, 3 3rds. Max had a 1st, 4 2nds, 2 3rds.

In those races where they both finished (starting race 5 when they were teammates)....DR finished ahead of Max in 8 out of 15 cases.

In the all important qualifying battles, DR qualified ahead of Max in 10 out of 17 cases.

In 2017 DR qualified ahead of Max in only 3 out of 8 cases.

In races where they both finished, DR finished head of Max in 1 out of 2 cases (Max has retired out of 4 races, DR out of 2).

DR has had a 1st and 3 3rds. Max has 1 3rd so far.

DR has 92 points, Max has 45.

So.....I don't think that Max has really yet "regularly outperformed" DR yet.

 

Have you watched the races this year? Verstappen has clearly been better every weekend. He has just been unlucky. 

Edited by VicVenom

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14 minutes ago, Sakae said:

 DC had some jump on him last year in terms of points due to diff. time lines.

:lol:

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59 minutes ago, VicVenom said:

Have you watched the races this year? Verstappen has clearly been better every weekend. He has just been unlucky. 

Ditto. I think we can all, except our friend Ruslan here, attest to that

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1 hour ago, VicVenom said:

:lol:

I am not sure what's so funny, but fact is, that Verstappen was transferred from TR to RBR after first four races last year, at which point DC had to his credit already 36 points, while Verstappen at TR had 13. In comparative analysis points count should perhaps begin with race 5.

Anyway, while together, DC scored in all remaining races, whereas Verstappen failed to score any points in 3 races. Final tally is perhaps not reflecting season Verstappen had, scoring 204 points v. 256 for DC, however very often he was ahead of DC.

 

Edited by Sakae

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We shall see how Max develops, but him developing into a driver who can regularly beat DR does not make him the best driver on the grid (which was Vic Venom's original claim). For example, Lewis Hamilton in his first year in F1 matched his teammate Alonso. I am still not convinced that Verstappen is of the caliber of Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel.

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1 minute ago, Ruslan said:

We shall see how Max develops, but him developing into a driver who can regularly beat DR does not make him the best driver on the grid (which was Vic Venom's original claim). For example, Lewis Hamilton in his first year in F1 matched his teammate Alonso. I am still not convinced that Verstappen is of the caliber of Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel.

Agree, but I am not a one making exotic claims about him. The truth is, I do not like some of his behavior, but as a racer he is pretty good. I might like him more if he stop running into Vettel.

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BACK to the TOPIC of THIS thread - ALONSO

Alonso WOULD B crazy to just, walk away from McLaren Honda NOW, in search of a final
Mercedes/Ferrari fling

YEARS spent, waiting/developing the Honda project, WOULD have been WAISTED for NOTHING
Alonso CAN`T get that time BACK.
Honda, THINK they HAVE found something,                   
I AM  going 2 B BALD & BRAVE, Alonso - the NEXT WDC !!

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6 hours ago, Sakae said:

Agree, but I am not a one making exotic claims about him. The truth is, I do not like some of his behavior, but as a racer he is pretty good. I might like him more if he stop running into Vettel.

He is pretty good.... but I think he is going to be (if not already) another brat driver. But part of the problem is trying to figure out how good DR really is. Anyhow, I still think the market revolves around three drivers and Alonso is the one that can't find a good seat (because there are only two competitive teams).

Edited by Ruslan

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7 hours ago, Sakae said:

Agree, but I am not a one making exotic claims about him. The truth is, I do not like some of his behavior, but as a racer he is pretty good. I might like him more if he stop running into Vettel.

Pretty much the same way I feel about MadMax

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Re:...there are only two competitive teams).
>At THIS time, but Honda expect and Honda WILL deliver !!
Sauber could SOON become a FORCE
Mclaren have ALREADY been there.
With Mercedes AND Honda

Edited by lipstick79

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Right now, I don't expect there to be more than two competitive teams in 2018. Alonso needs to either get a ride with Mercedes or Ferrari. If the Max to Ferrari rumors are true.... then Mercedes is the only option. Otherwise he should go race Indy for a year and then see about coming back to F1.

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16 hours ago, Ruslan said:

We shall see how Max develops, but him developing into a driver who can regularly beat DR does not make him the best driver on the grid (which was Vic Venom's original claim). For example, Lewis Hamilton in his first year in F1 matched his teammate Alonso. I am still not convinced that Verstappen is of the caliber of Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel.

Interesting post. I agree that overall Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel are the top 3 guys out there at the moment, every one of them has some strong points as well as some less strong ones (Vettel can be blinded by anger, Hamilton is very weak mentally at times and his ethics are questionable, Alonso is not the best on a single lap, etc), that is only human, every one of us is the same we all have our strong points as well as some negative points. So the same rule applies to Verstappen. In a sense I think that it's difficult to judge Verstappen because he has always been driving cars that looked quite "easy" (by F1 standards), ie cars that have a great chassis and allow the driver to trash them around at will. IMHO what we know so far is that Verstappen is a very very strong racer, that despite his age he's very smart and can use his head. Personally I am not 100% convinced that he has the speed of Hamilton or of Vettel (on a good day) but we shall see.

In terms of beating DR, again, I'm not convinced that it is so clear cut, DR had a few difficult races this year, he also had very strong drives, on occasion he was unlucky, etc. Furthermore although I think that DR is a very good driver and one who one day will be a worthy WDC I personally don't rate him at the same level of the top 3 guys when it comes to his driving, Ricciardo's strong points are his attitude and his racecraft (I believe that in pure driving terms Kvyat is better than him, for example, and Kvyat proved that beyond any reasonable doubt while they were team mates).

All this to say that we probably need some time to be able to fully ascertain how good Verstappen really his, I'm convinced that he'll be WDC one day, but when I watch him I often get the impression of a driver who has already reached his peak, a very high level but not much room for improvement. 

On the other hand there is someone like Sainz who was on a par with Verstappen when they were team mates and who still makes a lot of mistakes, in a sense you can see that Sainz has a lot of room for improving. For this reason I'm not convinced yet than in 10 years time from now we will say that Vertappen is better than Sainz (let alone of Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel, in aplhabetical order to avoid any controversy!)

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34 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

Interesting post. I agree that overall Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel are the top 3 guys out there at the moment, every one of them has some strong points as well as some less strong ones (Vettel can be blinded by anger, Hamilton is very weak mentally at times and his ethics are questionable, Alonso is not the best on a single lap, etc), that is only human, every one of us is the same we all have our strong points as well as some negative points. So the same rule applies to Verstappen. In a sense I think that it's difficult to judge Verstappen because he has always been driving cars that looked quite "easy" (by F1 standards), ie cars that have a great chassis and allow the driver to trash them around at will. IMHO what we know so far is that Verstappen is a very very strong racer, that despite his age he's very smart and can use his head. Personally I am not 100% convinced that he has the speed of Hamilton or of Vettel (on a good day) but we shall see.

In terms of beating DR, again, I'm not convinced that it is so clear cut, DR had a few difficult races this year, he also had very strong drives, on occasion he was unlucky, etc. Furthermore although I think that DR is a very good driver and one who one day will be a worthy WDC I personally don't rate him at the same level of the top 3 guys when it comes to his driving, Ricciardo's strong points are his attitude and his racecraft (I believe that in pure driving terms Kvyat is better than him, for example, and Kvyat proved that beyond any reasonable doubt while they were team mates).

All this to say that we probably need some time to be able to fully ascertain how good Verstappen really his, I'm convinced that he'll be WDC one day, but when I watch him I often get the impression of a driver who has already reached his peak, a very high level but not much room for improvement. 

On the other hand there is someone like Sainz who was on a par with Verstappen when they were team mates and who still makes a lot of mistakes, in a sense you can see that Sainz has a lot of room for improving. For this reason I'm not convinced yet than in 10 years time from now we will say that Vertappen is better than Sainz (let alone of Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel, in aplhabetical order to avoid any controversy!)

MadMax could'nt possibly have reached his peak because he's driving better and better. In fact, I think he's still unlocking some of his raw speed race by race, less of that rookie mistakes that has blundered his racecraft. If they get his car to be reliable, Dannyboy won't be able to touch him

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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12 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

MadMax could'nt possibly have reached his peak because he's driving better and better. In fact, I think he's still unlocking some of his raw speed race by race, less of that rookie mistakes that has blundered his racecraft. If they get his car to be reliable, Dannyboy won't be able to touch him

Emmcee must be suffering. (Unless he decided to switch and root for Vettel).

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9 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

Interesting post. I agree that overall Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel are the top 3 guys out there at the moment, every one of them has some strong points as well as some less strong ones (Vettel can be blinded by anger, Hamilton is very weak mentally at times and his ethics are questionable, Alonso is not the best on a single lap, etc), that is only human, every one of us is the same we all have our strong points as well as some negative points. So the same rule applies to Verstappen. In a sense I think that it's difficult to judge Verstappen because he has always been driving cars that looked quite "easy" (by F1 standards), ie cars that have a great chassis and allow the driver to trash them around at will. IMHO what we know so far is that Verstappen is a very very strong racer, that despite his age he's very smart and can use his head. Personally I am not 100% convinced that he has the speed of Hamilton or of Vettel (on a good day) but we shall see.

In terms of beating DR, again, I'm not convinced that it is so clear cut, DR had a few difficult races this year, he also had very strong drives, on occasion he was unlucky, etc. Furthermore although I think that DR is a very good driver and one who one day will be a worthy WDC I personally don't rate him at the same level of the top 3 guys when it comes to his driving, Ricciardo's strong points are his attitude and his racecraft (I believe that in pure driving terms Kvyat is better than him, for example, and Kvyat proved that beyond any reasonable doubt while they were team mates).

All this to say that we probably need some time to be able to fully ascertain how good Verstappen really his, I'm convinced that he'll be WDC one day, but when I watch him I often get the impression of a driver who has already reached his peak, a very high level but not much room for improvement. 

On the other hand there is someone like Sainz who was on a par with Verstappen when they were team mates and who still makes a lot of mistakes, in a sense you can see that Sainz has a lot of room for improving. For this reason I'm not convinced yet than in 10 years time from now we will say that Vertappen is better than Sainz (let alone of Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel, in aplhabetical order to avoid any controversy!)

I would encourage everyone to read this post a couple of times. Every sentence is an interesting insight.

Thanks
 

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It doesn`t sound to me like he is on the verge of quiting the Mclaren Honda project.
These last few GP. He is the happiest I`ve heard him for years.
He knows the Progress
 (Now Progress OpenEdge www.progress.com/openedge) Honda are making.
When Sauber are also customers, that progress (
OpenEdge) will escalate.
Mclaren are the works team. Why would he want to walk away from what he has been a part of, helping to create the next generation
 domination

Edited by lipstick79

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He did sound positive today.....even though he was running the old engine. If this new engine is good...then maybe he will stay. Would rather see Alonso and a competitive McLaren again then any of the other options discussed.

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On ‎08‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 5:04 PM, Ruslan said:

running the old engine. If this new engine is good...then maybe he will stay

I do NOT follow UR logic.

 If the new engine is good, he will continue running the OLD, NOT as good, PU
??? where IS the LOGIC in that ???

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Quote

Mercedes Team chairman Niki Lauda told Sport Bild: “Alonso cannot come to us. Lewis (Hamilton) has a contract.

“Valtteri (Bottas) brings a great performance too, both harmonise well. There is simply no space with us.”

 

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