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Sakae

2017 Race 5 Spain

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28 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Wow. Vettel a loser? Drove his heart out! He had the win in the bag if not for the vSC. Hamilton got lucky

Yes, SC, VSC, yellows, traffic, all part of the game. It was factor in the race outcome at least twice IMO to-date this season. Leading, and suddenly being 8 sec down seems like cruel joke, but that's how it went. 3.5 sec off lead at the finish line is one thing, but check the gaps behind P2. Some guys 2 laps down. I thought I am watching NASCAR. Newey was probably so embarrassed, that he came out - this is not my car, and simply disassociated himself of it.

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Merc brought a full bag of updates that stayed on car and worked without being tested. That was huge. Merc still has problem with setup and putting heath into tyres. When they get on top of it they will be step ahead ferrari. And what caused ferrari to lose this race? Not being able to be 2,5 sec faster than merc on 2,5 sec slower mediums during second stint. Bottas did help, but not so much.

Vettel should be faster on softs during second stint.

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1 hour ago, Caesar said:

Merc brought a full bag of updates that stayed on car and worked without being tested. That was huge. Merc still has problem with setup and putting heath into tyres. When they get on top of it they will be step ahead ferrari. And what caused ferrari to lose this race? Not being able to be 2,5 sec faster than merc on 2,5 sec slower mediums during second stint. Bottas did help, but not so much.

Vettel should be faster on softs during second stint.

I don't get your point. Ferrari also brought updates, Merc more visible updates. The fact that Merc brought such radical external updates yet Ferrari could compete with them is both impressive and fascinating. Vettel states Bottas holding him up cost him 14 seconds. He was flying up to that point, almost 2 seconds a lap faster than Hamilton.

So what exactly are you trying to say?

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50 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

I don't get your point. Ferrari also brought updates, Merc more visible updates. The fact that Merc brought such radical external updates yet Ferrari could compete with them is both impressive and fascinating. Vettel states Bottas holding him up cost him 14 seconds. He was flying up to that point, almost 2 seconds a lap faster than Hamilton.

So what exactly are you trying to say?

Vettel wasn't so many laps behind bottas, he was much faster than bottas so not being able to overtake so much slower merc is one of problems for ferrari.

Vet was faster two secs than hamilton at the begining hamiltons second stint, but soon vettel was only one sec faster on tyres that were 2,5 sec faster.

How come vettel pitted first time on lap 14 and hamilton could save his tyres to lap 21?

And about VSC, i really dont know why ferrari didnt pit vettel under VSC, they would lose less time. Or ferrari was maybe eating tyres more, and it was too early to pit him?

When season started it looked for me that ferrari was better car during a race, and when it was in front merc couldnt do much . 

But they both brought updates, and i think that merc updates worked better and they have little advantage now over ferrari.

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5 hours ago, Caesar said:

Vettel wasn't so many laps behind bottas, he was much faster than bottas so not being able to overtake so much slower merc is one of problems for ferrari.

 

I read from Motorport.com Italy that Vettel lost 7 seconds behind Bottas and 6 seconds for not pitting under the VSC. IMHO Vettel drove better than hamilton yesterday but Mercedes were a little big naughtier than Ferrari (Bottas holding up Vettel, playing games with mechanics coming out of the pits and then the car doesn't stop for a pit stop, etc, nothing illegal just a bit of lateral thinking from the Mercedes pit wall) and the Mercedes engine still has some advantage over the Ferrari one, the fact that Vettel was slower on the straight cost him dearly yesterday

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/la-ferrari-ce-ma-vettel-ha-pagato-il-gioco-di-squadra-mercedes-906088/

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Vet was faster two secs than hamilton at the begining hamiltons second stint, but soon vettel was only one sec faster on tyres that were 2,5 sec faster.

I think this is how myths are created.

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31 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I read from Motorport.com Italy that Vettel lost 7 seconds behind Bottas and 6 seconds for not pitting under the VSC. IMHO Vettel drove better than hamilton yesterday but Mercedes were a little big naughtier than Ferrari (Bottas holding up Vettel, playing games with mechanics coming out of the pits and then the car doesn't stop for a pit stop, etc, nothing illegal just a bit of lateral thinking from the Mercedes pit wall) and the Mercedes engine still has some advantage over the Ferrari one, the fact that Vettel was slower on the straight cost him dearly yesterday

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/la-ferrari-ce-ma-vettel-ha-pagato-il-gioco-di-squadra-mercedes-906088/

This is purportedly a race track with third longest straight on the calendar. Vettel was voted DOTR, which is good, but unfortunately no points are awarded for that. He drove well, rubbing wheels with Hamilton made my heart racing, and not the best way either.

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2 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I read from Motorport.com Italy that Vettel lost 7 seconds behind Bottas and 6 seconds for not pitting under the VSC. IMHO Vettel drove better than hamilton yesterday but Mercedes were a little big naughtier than Ferrari (Bottas holding up Vettel, playing games with mechanics coming out of the pits and then the car doesn't stop for a pit stop, etc, nothing illegal just a bit of lateral thinking from the Mercedes pit wall) and the Mercedes engine still has some advantage over the Ferrari one, the fact that Vettel was slower on the straight cost him dearly yesterday

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/la-ferrari-ce-ma-vettel-ha-pagato-il-gioco-di-squadra-mercedes-906088/

Correct, my mistake. Point is Vettel was flying up to that point, He lead would've been greater. Anyway, thats how races go

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1 hour ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Point is Vettel was flying up to that point, He lead would've been greater. Anyway, thats how races go

I agree that he would have been able to gain more than the 7 seconds that he "lost" because he had brand new tyres and he could have stepped up his game.

In a sense yesterday we faced one of the greatest dilemmas in car racing: do you build a car which is fast on a straight line and a little bit slower on the turns, or do you favour cornering speed to the detriment of top speed? Yesterday Mercedes' gamble of going for a higher top speed paid off. I think that it's also fair to say that they took full advantage of having 2 drivers working for the greater benefit of the team rather than for themselves only, in a sense Bottas did what he had to do and he did it in a very effective way without bending the rules (my question would be, what would have happened had Kimi been in Bottas' place with Hamilton behind him?)

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Some hypothetical questions, luckily for us, do not have to be answered. My own feeling is, that Kimi would drive his own race best he could, whereas Bottas might have his future on mind, as Hamilton is telling everybody how he is much more happy with him than anyone else before him. Emulating Ferrari, MB might be of opinion why fix something which is not broken (yet). 

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17 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I agree that he would have been able to gain more than the 7 seconds that he "lost" because he had brand new tyres and he could have stepped up his game.

In a sense yesterday we faced one of the greatest dilemmas in car racing: do you build a car which is fast on a straight line and a little bit slower on the turns, or do you favour cornering speed to the detriment of top speed? Yesterday Mercedes' gamble of going for a higher top speed paid off. I think that it's also fair to say that they took full advantage of having 2 drivers working for the greater benefit of the team rather than for themselves only, in a sense Bottas did what he had to do and he did it in a very effective way without bending the rules (my question would be, what would have happened had Kimi been in Bottas' place with Hamilton behind him?)

Hamilton would overtake him without any problems. Kimi on old tyres? Sitting duck.

Even vettel on new ones couldn't do much.

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Interesting race. What is probably more interesting is that it was a fight only between Hamilton and Vettel....with the two Finns clearly lagging behind. Is this really the difference between Hamilton and Bottas and Vettel and Raikkonen?

Next race is kind of a crap shoot, so we may not know more than we do now, but right now, it looks like the Ferrari and Mercedes are actually quite close to each other. I think Mercedes has the edge in speed if they get the tires working right, but often they do not. This may be a better season than I originally expected.

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On 5/15/2017 at 8:05 AM, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I read from Motorport.com Italy that Vettel lost 7 seconds behind Bottas and 6 seconds for not pitting under the VSC.

Those 6 sec includes slow pit stop? There was a problem with attaching (I think it was) front left wheel. Delay here, delay there, yet still only 3 sec+ behind Hamilton at the finish line. I am still not sure that we have seen both leading drivers fighting on a leveled field. The same strategy, the same tire, and without external interference. Without attrition it looks like there will be, at least be for a while, about 5 cars on a lead lap, and then the rest will come in two minutes later. Vettel sharing with us his thinking how to get rid of him while stuck behind Bottas was quite enlightening.

motorsport.com

Quote

Valtteri Bottas insists it was his "job" and "mission" to hold Sebastian Vettel up in the middle phase of the Spanish Grand Prix so he could help teammate Lewis Hamilton make up time.

...if anyone was in doubt...

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