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Sakae

Baku

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Incidents plagued race, not really F1 worthy, I would say. Sebastian Vettel extends his lead in WDC to 14 points over Senna (sorry) Hamilton. On the internet some posters claimed they had access to and saw Hamilton's telemetry, and he is reported as definitely used brakes, which is No No, especially on street circuit. FiA disagrees. Others, close to track location where the incident happen observed Hamilton visibly and suddenly slowed down. This is probably why Vettel expected penalty for both of them. Hamilton for instigating altercation, and him for retaliation.

I am not sure what he thinks he was doing, but Vettel got pretty mad (maybe a bit too much mad). Well, revenge is best served cold, and keeping Mr. Clean behind him was enough of payback. Otherwise, terrible race. No rhythm, no fluidity, no music, just one jerky afternoon.

Shock of the day - Stroll's placement. This alone should serve as evidence how messy the race was. Papa paid for another private training session (2nd or 3rd one this season?) right after Canada. Good for him. 

E. Ocon, as predicted in another thread, is shaping up into a force to be recon with. Still slightly unstable, but potential is there.

 

Kimi and Valtteri...Finish Tragedy. My suggestion - let (their) women to decide who should go first into a door.

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Well, bizarre and entertaining race. There are always one or two like this a year.

Anyhow, lots of clashes. There are two separate discussions in the Hamilton-Vettel clash:

A. Hamilton slowed before the restart

  1) This is not unusual, seems that almost every race leader does this

  2) Hamilton did not brake, did not slow unusually and pretty much slowed the same amount on the previous restart (this was the stewards conclusions, and I assume they have the telemetry)

  3) It actually looked like Vettel sped up coming out of the corner (this is my observation.... may not be the case)

  4) The following car hit the leading car... this is almost always the fault of the following car unless they can show extraordinary circumstances. It appears that this was pretty normal circumstances.

  5) Therefore fault to Vettel. May or may not be deserving of a penalty (for the following driver). The car in third place (and they showed his camera feed) did not have any issues.

B. Then Vettel drove next to Hamilton and then deliberately turned into Hamilton. This is a completely different subject.

   1) The penalty of a ten-second stop and go and 3 points on the license is pretty much the minimum one would expect for this.

   2) As neither car appears to have been damaged, that may be enough, but one could certainly make the argument that the penalty should have been more. Not sure how you make the argument that it should be less.

  3) As these two are fighting for the championship the stewards probably were hesitant to make too many strong calls.

Anyhow, good drive by DR, Bottas nicely covered for his mistake, and jury is still out on Stroll, but he does seem to be a genuinely nice kid.

More ominously, the Mercedes looked stronger than the Ferraris in the last two races.

 

 

 

 

 

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How the hell can there be NO EVIDENCE!!!! HELLLLLLLLLLLLOOOO????????????????????????? of brake testing when Hamilton brakes immediately after a turn????????????????????

 

I now have enough of British media and commentors throwing these biased statements during commentary

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F1Today.net

Quote

Mercedes chief Toto Wolff believes that the gloves are now off...

"Nobody wanted to see the schmoozing anyway, so now the gloves are off," said Wolff. "The sport needs the rivalry. What we have seen today is the ingredient of a great championship. They are warriors. They are at war at that moment. They are fighting for the race wins and the championship.

In more simpler terms, I think Englishman needs an enemy to boost his fragile ego. This year so far it is Vettel, and who knows who is next. Vettel would not get mad without a reason. Not after 10 years of racing, and for FiA to claim that Hamilton has done nothing wrong is not surprising, despite situation he created. Arrivabene put it more subtly:

Quote

We don’t want to get into an argument but I think I can say that some decisions that were not entirely clear, never worked in favor of our team.

It's hard to say whether he is referring to Sebastian or FiA, maybe both. He has however habit to be direct, and if he was mad with Seb only, he would have said so.

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Anyone who points the finger at Hamilton after yesterday needs to seek counselling. Vettel acted like the little ferret that he is. They need Max more than ever. 

It's amusing how the beta males in this thread have tried to turn the "English" into the enemy. Always the victim ah?

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7 hours ago, Ruslan said:

Well, bizarre and entertaining race. There are always one or two like this a year.

Anyhow, lots of clashes. There are two separate discussions in the Hamilton-Vettel clash:

A. Hamilton slowed before the restart

  1) This is not unusual, seems that almost every race leader does this

  2) Hamilton did not brake, did not slow unusually and pretty much slowed the same amount on the previous restart (this was the stewards conclusions, and I assume they have the telemetry)

  3) It actually looked like Vettel sped up coming out of the corner (this is my observation.... may not be the case)

  4) The following car hit the leading car... this is almost always the fault of the following car unless they can show extraordinary circumstances. It appears that this was pretty normal circumstances.

  5) Therefore fault to Vettel. May or may not be deserving of a penalty (for the following driver). The car in third place (and they showed his camera feed) did not have any issues.

B. Then Vettel drove next to Hamilton and then deliberately turned into Hamilton. This is a completely different subject.

   1) The penalty of a ten-second stop and go and 3 points on the license is pretty much the minimum one would expect for this.

   2) As neither car appears to have been damaged, that may be enough, but one could certainly make the argument that the penalty should have been more. Not sure how you make the argument that it should be less.

  3) As these two are fighting for the championship the stewards probably were hesitant to make too many strong calls.

Anyhow, good drive by DR, Bottas nicely covered for his mistake, and jury is still out on Stroll, but he does seem to be a genuinely nice kid.

More ominously, the Mercedes looked stronger than the Ferraris in the last two races.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd love to see Hamilton's telemetry, to me it looked as if he braked, I don't think that he braked as in "I'm going to brake test you and cause you to spin" but rather to gain an advantage. also it looked to me as if the cars behind got rather close to Vettel and only just missed a pile up. 

IMHO Hamilton's behavoir is deeply unethical but Vettel should have known better as Hamilton has always behaved like that.

I also believe that Hamilton's behaviour in all the restarts should have been sanctioned because if I remember correctly there is a rule that says that on the restart after an SC the leading car has to maintain a maximum distance to the SC of 8 (or is it 10?) car lenghts. This is a rule that is obviously applied rather inconsistently (I only remember one driver being sanctioned for such a brerach and if I remember correctly it was Vettel) but on a track like Baku having all the cars packed up in a restart is quite simply too dangerous (also wasn't there a rule that says that on a restart they can't overtake before they reach the start-finish line? because yesterday many drivers broke that rule, from Vettel to Perez, Bottas, etc). All this to say that Hamilton's behaviour was unethical and should have probably been sanctioned (5 seconds penalty?) but the fact that he backed off so much after the SC caused a real and imminent danger and for that reason alone he should have been sanctioned (and the drivers who passed other cars before the start.-finish line should have been sanctioned as well).

IMHO what happened yesterday was amatourish, I don't remember having withness to such poor standards of marshalling in all my years of racing (and national F3 in the early 1990s was quite wild on that front), not even when I happened to witness a friend of mine racing motorbikes at an amatour level (and that was beyond wild, that was completely bonkers).

The problem is that when you have rules you have to apply them consistently and yesterday that didn't happen.

Having said that what Vettel did was wrong and IMHO he deserved to be punished, he knows full well that Hamilton is always playing dirty and should have refrained from banging onto his car, it was totally unnecessary, he was alongside him, he could have told him to f*** off, IMHO he would have been right in telling Hamilton to f*** off, but that's it.

I can understand the frustration of drivers like Vettel, Rosberg and all the others when dealing with Hamilton, Hamilton is always borderline (and often quite simply unfair or dangerous) and the other drivers know the Hamilton is always getting away with things that would cost them a santion, they should speak up together rather than ramming into his car.

All this to say that Vettel IMHO deserved his penalty and Hamilton deserved a penalty as well, pity only of them was sanctioned

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37 minutes ago, VicVenom said:

It's amusing how the beta males in this thread have tried to turn the "English" into the enemy. Always the victim ah?

I thought that who was crying out as a victim was Hamilton B)

Regarding the British media I think that there's a widespead opinion (an opinion that I personally share) that they are generally far from unbiased

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Maybe this driver knows "How to" without leaving a trace onto which FiA could latch on. However as they say, there is not a such thing as a perfect crime. Just unresolved one. I saw that shot as well this morning, however I was waiting for "expert commentators" to explain, how an F1 car can travel 52 klicks in semi-racing conditions and gets away with it.

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1 hour ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I'd love to see Hamilton's telemetry, to me it looked as if he braked, I don't think that he braked as in "I'm going to brake test you and cause you to spin" but rather to gain an advantage. also it looked to me as if the cars behind got rather close to Vettel and only just missed a pile up. 

IMHO Hamilton's behavoir is deeply unethical but Vettel should have known better as Hamilton has always behaved like that.

I also believe that Hamilton's behaviour in all the restarts should have been sanctioned because if I remember correctly there is a rule that says that on the restart after an SC the leading car has to maintain a maximum distance to the SC of 8 (or is it 10?) car lenghts. This is a rule that is obviously applied rather inconsistently (I only remember one driver being sanctioned for such a brerach and if I remember correctly it was Vettel) but on a track like Baku having all the cars packed up in a restart is quite simply too dangerous (also wasn't there a rule that says that on a restart they can't overtake before they reach the start-finish line? because yesterday many drivers broke that rule, from Vettel to Perez, Bottas, etc). All this to say that Hamilton's behaviour was unethical and should have probably been sanctioned (5 seconds penalty?) but the fact that he backed off so much after the SC caused a real and imminent danger and for that reason alone he should have been sanctioned (and the drivers who passed other cars before the start.-finish line should have been sanctioned as well).

IMHO what happened yesterday was amatourish, I don't remember having withness to such poor standards of marshalling in all my years of racing (and national F3 in the early 1990s was quite wild on that front), not even when I happened to witness a friend of mine racing motorbikes at an amatour level (and that was beyond wild, that was completely bonkers).

The problem is that when you have rules you have to apply them consistently and yesterday that didn't happen.

Having said that what Vettel did was wrong and IMHO he deserved to be punished, he knows full well that Hamilton is always playing dirty and should have refrained from banging onto his car, it was totally unnecessary, he was alongside him, he could have told him to f*** off, IMHO he would have been right in telling Hamilton to f*** off, but that's it.

I can understand the frustration of drivers like Vettel, Rosberg and all the others when dealing with Hamilton, Hamilton is always borderline (and often quite simply unfair or dangerous) and the other drivers know the Hamilton is always getting away with things that would cost them a santion, they should speak up together rather than ramming into his car.

All this to say that Vettel IMHO deserved his penalty and Hamilton deserved a penalty as well, pity only of them was sanctioned

I agree with you, I think Vettel did'nt deliberately want to hit Hamilton, he was gesturing and lost control of the car with his hands up

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1 hour ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I thought that who was crying out as a victim was Hamilton B)

Other than he had every right to.

Anyone trying to make out that Vettel was a victim yesterday is frankly deluded. 

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6 minutes ago, VicVenom said:

Other than he had every right to.

Anyone trying to make out that Vettel was a victim yesterday is frankly deluded. 

I am...

so are you, and you're not even aware.

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8 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

I am...

so are you, and you're not even aware.

Yeah, it's a conspiracy. The data is forged. Vettel is a saint. It's the damn British not over World War 2. 

Grow up you idiot. 

 

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Vettel should be DSQ .

You do not do that on a other driver fighting for WDC, who is btw in front of you.

He was caught unprepared, and made childish move, not first time though.

 

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Instrument panel representation is in disagreement with Hamilton's claim that he didn't use brakes. I wonder why's that? Scanning the internet only proves there is more interest in throwing Vettel into poky and throw keys away at least for so long, until Hamilton has mathematically secured WDC, rather then to clarify some nuisance discrepancies which are not fitting the conclusion. 

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8 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Instrument panel representation is in disagreement with Hamilton's claim that he didn't use brakes. I wonder why's that? Scanning the internet only proves there is more interest in throwing Vettel into poky and throw keys away at least for so long, until Hamilton has mathematically secured WDC, rather then to clarify some nuisance discrepancies which are not fitting the conclusion. 

We don't need instrument panel representation. He clearly BRAKED at the exit of the corner....CLEARLY... it's there for all to see

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FIA said he didn't  brake, that he behave in that corner every lap the same, ... ....buuut the Vettle fans. :rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

We don't need instrument panel representation. He clearly BRAKED at the exit of the corner....CLEARLY... it's there for all to see

OK, I am not latched on one or some other theory, and I read from people who were at the track and they too stated that lead car suddenly slowed down, which obviously caught Vettel by surprise. I am rather curious over FiA's determination not to deal with cause (instigator) and ignore it, and instead just deal with second bump. (FiA Document No. 25). Vettel also received another 3 points, thus accumulating 9 for the season. 

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6 minutes ago, Caesar said:

FIA said he didn't  brake, that he behave in that corner every lap the same, ... ....buuut the Vettle fans. :rolleyes:

Did u even bother to take a look at the footage before making this silly comment

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6 minutes ago, Sakae said:

OK, I am not latched on one or some other theory, and I read from people who were at the track and they too stated that lead car suddenly slowed down, which obviously caught Vettel by surprise. I am rather curious over FiA's determination not to deal with cause (instigator) and ignore it, and instead just deal with second bump. (FiA Document No. 25). Vettel also received another 3 points, thus accumulating 9 for the season. 

it's not a theory, it's a fact

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1 hour ago, VicVenom said:

Other than he had every right to.

Anyone trying to make out that Vettel was a victim yesterday is frankly deluded. 

brake testing another driver is not ok, brake testing at the restart of a race is dangerous, so Hamilton is squarely to blame for the first accident.

Vettel didn't need to ram into Hamilton and IMHO he's to blame for the second accident.

Pretending that the first part of the accident didn't happen doesn't seem very sensible to me, yesterday they both got it wrong, one was punished (deservedly) the other was not

On top of that I struggle to feel much sympathy for someone who while breaking the rules (1 brake testing, 2 not comply with the maximum distance from the SC) cries that he's a victim and his opponent is a disgrace, having clarified that both Vettel and Hamilton did something wrong IMHO the disgrace is Hamilton for his behaviour and for his comments after the race

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5 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

it's not a theory, it's a fact

I think so too, but Hamilton denied, Hamilton's fans believe it, and FiA ignore it, as evident they decided not to deal with that part of the incident. Doc #25 is stating it quite clearly. 

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6 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

brake testing another driver is not ok, brake testing at the restart of a race is dangerous, so Hamilton is squarely to blame for the first accident.

Vettel didn't need to ram into Hamilton and IMHO he's to blame for the second accident.

Pretending that the first part of the accident didn't happen doesn't seem very sensible to me, yesterday they both got it wrong, one was punished (deservedly) the other was not

On top of that I struggle to feel much sympathy for someone who while breaking the rules (1 brake testing, 2 not comply with the maximum distance from the SC) cries that he's a victim and his opponent is a disgrace, having clarified that both Vettel and Hamilton did something wrong IMHO the disgrace is Hamilton for his behaviour and for his comments after the race

+1

note: I think Vettel deserved some sort of penalty based on his action, but you can't punish one driver and then condone the other who has caused the incident in the first place!!!

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