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Sakae

Baku

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10 minutes ago, Ruslan said:

Well, my bias is to trust the stewards on this one....as they have a lot more resources then we do.

As it was, they showed the in car camera for the car following Vettel (was it Perez at that stage?). He clearly had plenty of space and no problems. I suspect Vettel was running pretty close to Hamilton so as to have a chance of getting him at the end of the straight after the re-start.

<<This is a rule that is obviously applied rather inconsistently (I only remember one driver being sanctioned for such a brerach and if I remember correctly it was Vettel) but...>>

Well, they all do it. If F1 doesn't want it to happen, then they need to announce the changes and patrol it. They have not been patrolling, so anything goes on the restart and all the drivers do it. Steve Matchett made the point yesterday that he did not think that Hamilton was doing anything that Vettel would not have done if he was leading.

Anyhow, Vettel should have known better. He has been doing this for a while.

<<Having said that what Vettel did was wrong and IMHO he deserved to be punished, he knows full well that Hamilton is always playing dirty and should have refrained from banging onto his car, it was totally unnecessary, he was alongside him, he could have told him to f*** off, IMHO he would have been right in telling Hamilton to f*** off, but that's it.>>

Yep. I am not convinced that Hamilton also deserved a penalty for brake testing.

There are precedents for Stewards reporting result of investigation under all circumstances. Vettel hit car #44 twice. I would like FiA to write it down that Hamilton did this or that and circumstance of first altercation. I do not want British media explaining to me in editorialized form what they think FiA was thinking. Problem is, had they published a such statement, and later it would be proven as bias and inaccurate, than a lot of dung might potentially fly all over the place. FiA decided rumors are then less toxic for them.

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2 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

We as fans need to do something. It simply can't go on like this!!! 

Jesus Christ. 

Are you 12? 

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48 minutes ago, Sakae said:

 I do not want British media explaining to me in editorialized form what they think FiA was thinking. 

Well they don't do that. They tell you what the FIA determined. Vettel was in the wrong yesterday and acted like the idiot that he is. Deal with it. 

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3 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

The stewards quity simply ignored the antefacts to Vettel's misdemeanor, what Vettel did was not right but it has been taken completely out of context

Quote

STEWART BELIEVES HAMILTON SHOULD TAKE SOME BLAME IN VETTEL COLLISION

Voice of a reason.

I expect more when people begin looking at it more objectively.

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6 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Voice of a reason.

I expect more when people begin looking at it more objectively.

:lol:

Do you know what objective means? Given your terrible grammar, I suspect not. 

You've shown yourself to be a bigot and an idiot today. Congratulations. 

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47 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Voice of a reason.

I expect more when people begin looking at it more objectively.

what Stewart says seems reasonable to me, both on the accidents between Hamilton and Vettel as well as on the stewards. Ruslan was pointing out that one of the stewards at yestreday's race was Danny Sullivan who is an experiened racer if a bit old, I wonder who the other 2 were, one should be a representative of the automobile club of Azerbajan, isn't it?

Anyway, there's another thing that I'd like to point out: if you guys look at the articlse on this matter you'll notice that at first the stewards said that Hamilton didn't brake test Vettel, to be precise they said "The FIA investigation, which took place during the course of the race, threw up no suggestion that Hamilton had braked nor lifted off entirely" (https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-hamilton-vettel-baku-brake-testing-923425/). It is rather obvious that such statement was incorrect, the on board camera footage from Hamilton's car shows clearly that he was braking (hard) when Vettel hit him, so they had to change the story, now the official line is that Hamilton braked there at every SC restart and Vettel should have known better. This in itself is a bit fishy because again with my lawyer's hat on :tiphat: the stewards have adfmitted (probably without reasiling it) that they took a decision on Hamilton's behavior without looking properly at the data (otherwise they would say that the evidence provieded to them "threw up no suggestion that Hamilton had braked" bacuse we now know that he did) and that they came out with a reconstruction of events that is factually inaccurate (because they first said that he didn't brake whereas now it is clear that he did brake). 

My problem with the decision of the stewards is that article 39 section 13 of the 2017 F1 Sporting Regulations states that "in order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.": this leaves no room for intrepretation, at the restart behind the SC the drivers cannot brake hard, and sadly that is what Hamilton did (I quote from Sir Jacie's interview linked above "Lewis put his brakes on so hard that Vettel hit him").

All in all the usual mess, the stewards did a very poor job, as usual, again I quote Sir Jackies "I have criticism about the stewarding at races. There are a different set of stewards at almost every Grand Prix ... Those so-called stewards could come from a variety of different places and many of them are of different ages. They can’t then possibly give consistency to either the disciplinary actions or have the knowledge that is required to make judgements that could affect the outcome of world championships"

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With regard stewards changing their story, it is exactly the reason why I wanted to see a written statement from FiA how they evaluated the incident from its inception, and replace "Hamilton has done noting wrong" with specifics that were evaluated. Optics of the incident, and written text are out of whack, never mind that I trust Vettel's word somewhat more than LH, who over the years has not very good record on describing the things accurately.

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14 minutes ago, Sakae said:

With regard stewards changing their story, it is exactly the reason why I wanted to see a written statement from FiA how they evaluated the incident from its inception, and replace "Hamilton has done noting wrong" with specifics that were evaluated. Optics of the incident, and written text are out of whack, never mind that I trust Vettel's word somewhat more than LH, who over the years has not very good record on describing the things accurately.

they have already taken a decision, they are not going to change it, for that matter I'm not even sure that the stewards can change one of their decisions, I guess that the only way that Hamilton could get punished would be if someone filed a claim with the FIA but I don't think that it will happen.

In the end we are all talking about this story, it's great for F1, and regarding Vettel's 3 points on his licence he's on the hook for one race only, after that some of the earlier points will expire, it's not a very big deal.

In the end some will strenghten their opinion that Vettel is useless, others will strenghten their opinion that Hamilton is a crook, everyone talks about it and that's great for F1 and Vettel has 2 more points over Hamilton. I look forward to the race when they will bang wheels for real!

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Bernie Ecclestone knows a bad move when he sees one, but when it comes to the Ham-Vettel clash in Baku, the former F1 supremo appears to defend the Ferrari driver.

There was overwhelming condemnation of Vettel's  wheel-banging antics today in the media, and lots of support for Hamilton.

Mr. E on the other hand apparently has an opposing view.

"As far as the Hamilton vs Vettel incident is concerned, these things happen in racing," the chairman emeritus of F1 told FormulaPassion.

"I think that Hamilton was trying to put Vettel in trouble by breaking and make the accident happen. Vettel's reaction was normal to let Hamilton know that he was aware for this reason."

Wolff

Quote

"Looking at the data, there was no brake involved. He (Hamilton) went through the corner and went out of the throttle and Sebastian went into him.  I think this is what I can acknowledge...

Sounds like surprise behind corner is waiting for you, especially if Hamilton shifted down to G1 (my guess) and achieved the same reduction of speed as he would by feathering brake.

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Lewis the punk did not use the brake but certainly use engine brake which has the same effect at that slow speed.:reddevile:

This Lewis is a full punk and full of dirty tricks. I wish he has a big accident soon !:blowup:

What an azzhole !:furious:

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I also suspect there was high degree of dishonesty by MB driver and his management due to fine nuances in describing what the driver has actually done, it was unprofessional how the incident was evaluated, and finally how it was communicated to the public. Wolff actually only now is admitting driver has slow down. Question only is whether it was his personal error, or deliberate act with intent to harm Vettel.

Vettel could be many things to many people, but he is an experienced driver and people around him knows him as an honest, uncomplicated guy. Problem he encountered in turn, that he lost momentarily visual what Hamilton has done, and when he says Hamilton has not behaved correctly, then I tend to believe him. To make villain out of Vettel is the usual media stuff. Bumping into Hamilton of course in the heat of the moment is understandable, however not entirely what he should be doing.

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2 hours ago, radical-one said:

Lewis the punk did not use the brake but certainly use engine brake which has the same effect at that slow speed.:reddevile:

This Lewis is a full punk and full of dirty tricks. I wish he has a big accident soon !:blowup:

What an azzhole !:furious:

Seek help. 

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I noticed that the discussion is lagging a bit today so there you go, some material for further arguments :) Motorsport Italy is asking why Hamilton was allowed to race for 7 laps with an unsafe car

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/il-caso-perche-la-fia-non-ha-punito-la-mercedes-per-unsafe-release-923920/

I think that if the journos will have a closer look at Sunday's race they will find many instances when the stewards ovrelooked the rulebook, and Hamilton is not the only one who had a lucky escape.

apart from this I always ask myself why in this day and age with on board cameras, high res equipment at every corner of the track, hunders of marshalls, it takes the stewards so long to come to conclusions that often seem so oviuos to me: back in my days (:rip: ) if we did something wrong a marshall would pick up his radio, he would call race control and say "that b*****d with car number 27 cut the chicane, give him the black flag" and the next time we would cross the finish line the black flag would be waiting for the unlucky driver who had been caught red handed, we never had to wait more than 1 lap to be punished (considering that an F3 race was about 20 laps of the average circuit), and I've seen many black flags in my days, now we have to wait ages for some rather straightforward decisions, and on top of that I don't remeber when I last saw a black flag (or a black and orange flag for that matter) being shown to a driver: are the stewards shy? are they afraid of offending the drivers? or are they quite simply unfit for their job and a few OAPs in orange overalls would be much better than the current stewards? These days the drivers know that they can get away with whatever they like, they don't slow down under yellows, they overtake when they can't, I would have never dreamt of doing anything like that becauyse I knew that I would have been black flagged immediately, but then nowadays if you get even remotely close to another car you get punished... where is the world coming to?

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Combination of your past hobby and current job makes you stand above the crowd. Its good to have you here. To be honest, I spend a lot (maybe more than I should have) time to understand comprehensively the incident between those two protagonists, thus I didn't pay attention to anything else. What drives me is believe, that Vettel is an honest guy, and something in nature out of normal must have triggered his anger. He is pretty much straight if he makes mistakes, but this was obviously different. Hamilton was probably hoping for damage to Vettel's front wing or something of that kind. It did puzzle me how superficially and quickly media swooshed over it. A few posts back (only yesterday) there is comment from Wolff which suggests that combination of locality - corner and loss of awareness of relative proximity between cars after car 44 speed change after Hamilton lifted, were factors at the core behind first bump. FiA ignoring it is the other thing. I do further suspect that Hamilton knew exactly what he was doing, and BE is probably correct with his assessment of Hamilton's intent. What was not in the plan but work out nicely for him that Vettel was ready to smack him without delay and generated unfavorable optics for himself. It is amazing how many people saying that Hamilton had right to do that, instead saying how stupid and evil it was of him, worthy punishment.

Situation is going to be interesting from now on. Ferrari is upset how Bottas has knack to get Kimi into trouble, just as how Hamilton is getting away with his indiscretions, and finally FiA siding with MB. Wolff meanwhile is running around proclaiming that gloves are off and there will be war. Not sure where this si all heading, but I do not expect any schmoozing any time soon.

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You two made some very interesting statements and good observations.... enjoyed the read

 

The worse for me was the over-the-top absolute bias drivel from the british commentators on this incident during the race

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I don't know how far your fanboism can go, and i don't wanna know.

Only less clever people can't see what happened between lewis and seb.

FIA made their statement and decision, although they could DSQ vettle, but they didn't.

Every driver that hits other driver on purpose should be DSQ at the same moment.

End of story.

Lewis is a brat, but vettle is special kind of brat.

He has huge smile when he makes joke on other people account, but when joke is on his account he likes to escape through back window.

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15 minutes ago, Caesar said:

I don't know how far your fanboism can go, and i don't wanna know.

Only less clever people can't see what happened between lewis and seb.

FIA made their statement and decision, although they could DSQ vettle, but they didn't.

Every driver that hits other driver on purpose should be DSQ at the same moment.

End of story.

Lewis is a brat, but vettle is special kind of brat.

He has huge smile when he makes joke on other people account, but when joke is on his account he likes to escape through back window.

What are you smoking?

 

Did'nt we agree BOTH deserve penalties, if you don't believe me please follow the thread, not selective posts

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12 minutes ago, Caesar said:

I don't know how far your fanboism can go, and i don't wanna know.

Only less clever people can't see what happened between lewis and seb.

FIA made their statement and decision, although they could DSQ vettle, but they didn't.

Every driver that hits other driver on purpose should be DSQ at the same moment.

End of story.

Lewis is a brat, but vettle is special kind of brat.

He has huge smile when he makes joke on other people account, but when joke is on his account he likes to escape through back window.

Spot on. 

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23 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

What are you smoking?

 

Did'nt we agree BOTH deserve penalties, if you don't believe me please follow the thread, not selective posts

Hamilton didn't deserve penalty as FIA decided, and i am talking about vettle fans who are trying to justify his decisions. I am alonso fan, but if he did the same as vettle, i wouldn't try to defend him.

And quoting italian press and ferrari team director, .... come on wth!?!?

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2 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I noticed that the discussion is lagging a bit today so there you go, some material for further arguments :) Motorsport Italy is asking why Hamilton was allowed to race for 7 laps with an unsafe car

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/il-caso-perche-la-fia-non-ha-punito-la-mercedes-per-unsafe-release-923920/

I think that if the journos will have a closer look at Sunday's race they will find many instances when the stewards ovrelooked the rulebook, and Hamilton is not the only one who had a lucky escape.

apart from this I always ask myself why in this day and age with on board cameras, high res equipment at every corner of the track, hunders of marshalls, it takes the stewards so long to come to conclusions that often seem so oviuos to me: back in my days (:rip: ) if we did something wrong a marshall would pick up his radio, he would call race control and say "that b*****d with car number 27 cut the chicane, give him the black flag" and the next time we would cross the finish line the black flag would be waiting for the unlucky driver who had been caught red handed, we never had to wait more than 1 lap to be punished (considering that an F3 race was about 20 laps of the average circuit), and I've seen many black flags in my days, now we have to wait ages for some rather straightforward decisions, and on top of that I don't remeber when I last saw a black flag (or a black and orange flag for that matter) being shown to a driver: are the stewards shy? are they afraid of offending the drivers? or are they quite simply unfit for their job and a few OAPs in orange overalls would be much better than the current stewards? These days the drivers know that they can get away with whatever they like, they don't slow down under yellows, they overtake when they can't, I would have never dreamt of doing anything like that becauyse I knew that I would have been black flagged immediately, but then nowadays if you get even remotely close to another car you get punished... where is the world coming to?

Maybe Arrivabene could perhaps ask for clarification from CW, and send copies of this inquiry to several EU news organizations, including JT, just to ensure it is not going to be swept under the carpet. He could also request further clarification whether Lauda is preparing us for possibility that Hamilton will fist Vettel, or what all of his rhetoric means?

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