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Sakae

Baku

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1 hour ago, BradSpeedMan said:

I mean...A few races ago Ricciardo admitted to bang wheels with Vettel at racing speed on purpose. Did he get a penalty for that ?

Banging wheels uncecessarily is wrong and should be punished but in my personal experience it happens much more often that some people ralise. Besides consistency doesn't seem to be at the top of FIA's agenda

Having said that I am still convinced that Vettel's move wasn't very smart and I'm not surprised that he was punished, what I don't agree with is that Hamilton was allowed to walk scott free after breaking the rules at every restart after the SC, IMHO that is plain stupid (by the stewards), there are rules on the maximum distance that you can keep from the SC and Hamilton broke them at every restart and brake testing is unacceptable.

All this to say that IMHO this is a textbook example of double standards

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Hamilton also got Scott free after attempting to influence FiA in a person Whiting, as a he Race Control, to increase Vettel's penalty, when he complained that 10 sec stop and go was "not enough". I am not sure how this works with FiA, but this kind of interference with regulators by a driver seem not entirely right. Hamilton should receive warning that next time any driver attempting this, will be sanctioned. Button has done it several times in the past to his benefit, Alonso is known as well to report from c#ckpit on Vettel (at least twice I recall). It develops certain kind of nepotism what is suppose to be bias free environment.

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17 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

Banging wheels uncecessarily is wrong and should be punished but in my personal experience it happens much more often that some people ralise. Besides consistency doesn't seem to be at the top of FIA's agenda

Having said that I am still convinced that Vettel's move wasn't very smart and I'm not surprised that he was punished, what I don't agree with is that Hamilton was allowed to walk scott free after breaking the rules at every restart after the SC, IMHO that is plain stupid (by the stewards), there are rules on the maximum distance that you can keep from the SC and Hamilton broke them at every restart and brake testing is unacceptable.

All this to say that IMHO this is a textbook example of double standards

Yes, but Ric deliberately did it. Vettel just reacted this race

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Since someone complaind that I didn't write my usual review for the race in Canada here are a few thoughts about Baku

First of all I think that F1 shouldn't race in a place like that, the track is not up to F1 standards, the track is too narrow in parts, there's no way of recovering a broken down car in parts of the circuit and that straight is an accident waiting to happen after an SC restart (and IMHO yesterday they were very lucky that nothing serious happened).

The the stewards... I have rarely seen such a bunch of amateur, not only they were inconsistent (we got used to that) but they simply overlooked many issues: for example the maxiumu distance from the SC is not there to annoy drivers but to prevent from ending up in dangerous situations (as yesterda's race clearly clarified) and so they need to apply that rule. Also you can't overtake after an SC restart before the start/finish line, yesterday many drivers did that and nothing happened. Also you can't put another car into the wall. Finally I believe that there's a rule that says that drivers must keep both hand on the steering wheel. But yesterday the stewards were busy doing something else and they missed all that

Ricciardo - he drove well, he did the best that his car could do, he pulled a great move passing 3 cars after an SC restart and kept clear of any trouble, well done

Bottas - he did ok during the second half of the race, IMHO his first half was really hopeless. I know that some people complained that Vettel was punished for his coming together with Hamilton and Bottas wasn't for ramming into Raikkonen, I agree with the stewards on this one, IMHO not punishing Bottas was consistent with the clarification of the rules that they gave at the beginning of the season, when Kimi closed the door Bottas was already comming to that turn and he had nowhere to go, hitting the curb meant that he was a passanger on that car. Furthermore Kimi didn't leave him much room. So all in all IMHO it was a racing accident

Stroll - I think that he did well, I would have loved to see him 2nd, IMHO he deserved it, he did well throught the week end, he was competitive, gained some places on track and managed to steer clear of any trouble. Copying Massa's set up is paying dividends, you could see that his action with the steering wheel was much more natural than in the first race, IMHO his set up is still a bit on the stiff side but even if I don't think that he's the next Lewis Hamilton I think that Stroll can drive

Vettel - he wasted a near certain victory, someone with his experience should know better, ramming into Hamilton was unnecesary, I agree that he should have move alongside him but turning into him was pointless, he could have simply kept Hamilton close to the wall, sadly Vettel lost his cool but he should know that Hamilton always plays these games (and gets away with it) but IMHO Vettel should also know that Hamilton plays these tricks when he's under pressure

Hamilton - if the guy didn't speak I'd be one of his greatest fans, pity he does. IMHO what he did was plain unethical and dangerous. He then couldn't keep up with Vettel, notwistanding a car which was considerably quicker on the straight line.  

Ocon - if he's upset with Perez because he didn't let him through in Canada he should try 2 things: 1 try to learn to beat his team mate on track rather than asking the pit to instruct his team mate to let him through, and 2 if he can't live with the anger of not being able to pass he should seek some conselling, what he did yesterday IMHO was much worse than what happened between Hamilton and Vettel 

Perez / Ocon - Ocon pushed his tem mate on the wall after the turn, it could only have been intentional, Force India lost a lot of points for that action, possibly they lost the race, Perez had left him plenty of room, there was no reason whatsoever to put him in the wall. IMHO Ocon was childish and unprofessional

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17 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Yes, but Ric deliberately did it. Vettel just reacted this race

absolutely, I agree with you. Also if I put my lawyer's hat on I must point out that if Vettel reacted then there must have been some prior action that caused Vettel's reaction, isn't it? B) so why trying to take Vettel (wrong) action out of context? B)B) maybe what happened before Vettel's reaction was significant but has to be hidden? B)B)B)

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Thanks for a review, Scipio.  BTW, has anyone taken a notice of precarious situation Sebastian is? He has 3 points apart from a race ban. This is no good, is it. I wonder if some drivers will take liberty with that, as they did with Grosjean in similar situation.

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3 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

absolutely, I agree with you. Also if I put my lawyer's hat on I must point out that if Vettel reacted then there must have been some prior action that caused Vettel's reaction, isn't it? B) so why trying to take Vettel (wrong) action out of context? B)B) maybe what happened before Vettel's reaction was significant but has to be hidden? B)B)B)

This case might be a first sign of flawed decision to let Stewards decide on their own with what they want or do not want to deal with.  Normative references do exits to ensure process consistency and remove ambiguity, but if they turn it into snack bar (smörgåsbord), that's a different ball game. I am really learning to hate this.

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3 minutes ago, Sakae said:

This case might be a first sign of flawed decision to let Stewards decide on their own with what they want or do not want to deal with.  Normative references do exits to ensure process consistency and remove ambiguity, but if they turn it into snack bar (smörgåsbord), that's a different ball game. I am really learning to hate this.

that's the problem, the stewards have the power to take decision in the heat of the moment but they are very inconsistent, you can't have 3 stewards for each race and every time they all change from the previous race, IMHO they need a panel of stewards set for the whole season and they must be poeple with proven experience not just officials of this or that national federation

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28 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

Since someone complaind that I didn't write my usual review for the race in Canada here are a few thoughts about Baku

First of all I think that F1 shouldn't race in a place like that, the track is not up to F1 standards, the track is too narrow in parts, there's no way of recovering a broken down car in parts of the circuit and that straight is an accident waiting to happen after an SC restart (and IMHO yesterday they were very lucky that nothing serious happened).

The the stewards... I have rarely seen such a bunch of amateur, not only they were inconsistent (we got used to that) but they simply overlooked many issues: for example the maxiumu distance from the SC is not there to annoy drivers but to prevent from ending up in dangerous situations (as yesterda's race clearly clarified) and so they need to apply that rule. Also you can't overtake after an SC restart before the start/finish line, yesterday many drivers did that and nothing happened. Also you can't put another car into the wall. Finally I believe that there's a rule that says that drivers must keep both hand on the steering wheel. But yesterday the stewards were busy doing something else and they missed all that

Ricciardo - he drove well, he did the best that his car could do, he pulled a great move passing 3 cars after an SC restart and kept clear of any trouble, well done

Bottas - he did ok during the second half of the race, IMHO his first half was really hopeless. I know that some people complained that Vettel was punished for his coming together with Hamilton and Bottas wasn't for ramming into Raikkonen, I agree with the stewards on this one, IMHO not punishing Bottas was consistent with the clarification of the rules that they gave at the beginning of the season, when Kimi closed the door Bottas was already comming to that turn and he had nowhere to go, hitting the curb meant that he was a passanger on that car. Furthermore Kimi didn't leave him much room. So all in all IMHO it was a racing accident

Stroll - I think that he did well, I would have loved to see him 2nd, IMHO he deserved it, he did well throught the week end, he was competitive, gained some places on track and managed to steer clear of any trouble. Copying Massa's set up is paying dividends, you could see that his action with the steering wheel was much more natural than in the first race, IMHO his set up is still a bit on the stiff side but even if I don't think that he's the next Lewis Hamilton I think that Stroll can drive

Vettel - he wasted a near certain victory, someone with his experience should know better, ramming into Hamilton was unnecesary, I agree that he should have move alongside him but turning into him was pointless, he could have simply kept Hamilton close to the wall, sadly Vettel lost his cool but he should know that Hamilton always plays these games (and gets away with it) but IMHO Vettel should also know that Hamilton plays these tricks when he's under pressure

Hamilton - if the guy didn't speak I'd be one of his greatest fans, pity he does. IMHO what he did was plain unethical and dangerous. He then couldn't keep up with Vettel, notwistanding a car which was considerably quicker on the straight line.  

Ocon - if he's upset with Perez because he didn't let him through in Canada he should try 2 things: 1 try to learn to beat his team mate on track rather than asking the pit to instruct his team mate to let him through, and 2 if he can't live with the anger of not being able to pass he should seek some conselling, what he did yesterday IMHO was much worse than what happened between Hamilton and Vettel 

Perez / Ocon - Ocon pushed his tem mate on the wall after the turn, it could only have been intentional, Force India lost a lot of points for that action, possibly they lost the race, Perez had left him plenty of room, there was no reason whatsoever to put him in the wall. IMHO Ocon was childish and unprofessional

Nice report... but,

I think Kimi left enough room, plus he is ahead entry / apex of the corner. Bottas in my personal view has a spatial awareness problem. A big one. The guy simply can't battle on track

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12 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

Miniatura

would you believe the FIA if they told you that pigs could fly?

You really don't get it. He did brake, as FIA report said, he brake at every lap under SC at the same place, with same amount. He wasn't brake testing Vettle. Vettle's fault. He should not react like a brat, and je should have been DSQ.

 

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12 minutes ago, Caesar said:

You really don't get it. He did brake, as FIA report said, he brake at every lap under SC at the same place, with same amount. He wasn't brake testing Vettle. Vettle's fault. He should not react like a brat, and je should have been DSQ.

 

He braked every lap under SC at that same corner like that??? He should be banned for few races then!!!!

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Vettel-penalty.jpg

 

Where is that assertion regarding "braking" on the same spot you speaking off? I don't see it. Fact is, FiA ignored cause, and in their infinite wisdom decided to deal with consequences only. 

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4 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Vettel-penalty.jpg

 

Where is that assertion regarding "braking" on the same spot? I don't see it.

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17 minutes ago, Caesar said:

You really don't get it. He did brake, as FIA report said, he brake at every lap under SC at the same place, with same amount. He wasn't brake testing Vettle. Vettle's fault. He should not react like a brat, and je should have been DSQ.

 

no I really don't get it, I was always told that brake testing is wrong, and even assuming he braked there every single lap behind the SC there is a fundamental difference, because behind the SC they were all trying to keep up their tyres' temperature, when the SC turned its light off they were in effect jostlying for position, which to me looks like a totally different ball game. But in the end brake testing other drivers is wrong

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We as fans need to do something. It simply can't go on like this!!! Look at the incidents with Ferrari drivers getting compromised every other race too!!!

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However, the FIA explains Hamilton conducted himself in a correct and 'consistent' manner on all restarts, thus requiring no investigation 

“The Stewards examined Hamilton's car data in the Vettel collision. It emerged that Hamilton correctly maintained a consistent speed and behaved in the same manner on that occasion as in all other restarts during the race.” 

Hamilton himself says he used identical methods on each safety car restart and was surprised it caught Vettel out the second time around. 

“By Turn 7 I'm told the Safety Car is going to come in, I'm only allowed a ten car-length gap between myself and the Safety Car whilst the lights are on. Going into Turn 15 I'm more or less around that gap and when I'm going down the hill I can see the lights switch off and at that point I don't need to accelerate and speed up to keep that gap. 

“So I kept a consistent pace, a consistent deceleration down to the apex and just didn't speed up… I did that the first time and did that the second time. It was just the second time I got a nudge. 
 

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4 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

We as fans need to do something. It simply can't go on like this!!! Look at the incidents with Ferrari drivers getting compromised every other race too!!!

You could try to find some help.

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1 minute ago, Caesar said:

However, the FIA explains Hamilton conducted himself in a correct and 'consistent' manner on all restarts, thus requiring no investigation 

“The Stewards examined Hamilton's car data in the Vettel collision. It emerged that Hamilton correctly maintained a consistent speed and behaved in the same manner on that occasion as in all other restarts during the race.” 

Hamilton himself says he used identical methods on each safety car restart and was surprised it caught Vettel out the second time around. 

“By Turn 7 I'm told the Safety Car is going to come in, I'm only allowed a ten car-length gap between myself and the Safety Car whilst the lights are on. Going into Turn 15 I'm more or less around that gap and when I'm going down the hill I can see the lights switch off and at that point I don't need to accelerate and speed up to keep that gap. 

“So I kept a consistent pace, a consistent deceleration down to the apex and just didn't speed up… I did that the first time and did that the second time. It was just the second time I got a nudge. 
 

There are claims, there are doubts about veracity of those claims, and then there is the naked truth. Absolving Hamilton from responsibility for the part 1 should have been documented in the report so we have it unedited. What FiA said has to be direct, not through translation and improvement by some anonymous F1 reporter.

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56 minutes ago, Sakae said:

There are claims, there are doubts about veracity of those claims, and then there is the naked truth. Absolving Hamilton from responsibility for the part 1 should have been documented in the report so we have it unedited. What FiA said has to be direct, not through translation and improvement by some anonymous F1 reporter.

The stewards quity simply ignored the antefacts to Vettel's misdemeanor, what Vettel did was not right but it has been taken completely out of context

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2 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

Since someone complaind that I didn't write my usual review for the race in Canada here are a few thoughts about Baku

Thank you....these are great. You missed your calling, you should have been a motorsports journalist. Probably doesn't pay as well as what you currently do ;)

Agree with you on Ocon. This would have been the story of the race....if.....Vettel hadn't garnered all the attention. As it was, there was only one post on this thread yesterday evening (EST)...and now there are 45.

David Hobbs and Steve Matchett do commentate on the race feed I watch, and I think they are quite good (even though they are both British). They do present their opinions and observations as it is underway and in the post-race show. Matchett did zero in on this and stated that Perez probably would have won the race if Ocon did not hit him. He also strongly blamed the team for the problem as they did not handle the situation in Canada correctly. He statement is that if you let a driver problem fester, it will end up hurting the team. He does have a point.

On the other subject (Hamilton vs Vettel): They were both pretty clear that the guy in the back is responsible for not hitting the guy in the front. They did make the comment that it looked like Hamilton slowed down just as Vettel sped up. They did compare it to Schumacher and Montoya at Monoco, but pretty much put the blame for the incident on Vettel. 

F1 does need to use the same stewards or same group of stewards each race. Don't know who the other stewards are (I gather it is posted somewhere), but the driver steward was Danny Sullivan who has done this many times before, raced F1 and Indy, so there is some consistency there.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I'd love to see Hamilton's telemetry, to me it looked as if he braked, I don't think that he braked as in "I'm going to brake test you and cause you to spin" but rather to gain an advantage. also it looked to me as if the cars behind got rather close to Vettel and only just missed a pile up. 

Well, my bias is to trust the stewards on this one....as they have a lot more resources then we do.

As it was, they showed the in car camera for the car following Vettel (was it Perez at that stage?). He clearly had plenty of space and no problems. I suspect Vettel was running pretty close to Hamilton so as to have a chance of getting him at the end of the straight after the re-start.

<<This is a rule that is obviously applied rather inconsistently (I only remember one driver being sanctioned for such a brerach and if I remember correctly it was Vettel) but...>>

Well, they all do it. If F1 doesn't want it to happen, then they need to announce the changes and patrol it. They have not been patrolling, so anything goes on the restart and all the drivers do it. Steve Matchett made the point yesterday that he did not think that Hamilton was doing anything that Vettel would not have done if he was leading.

Anyhow, Vettel should have known better. He has been doing this for a while.

<<Having said that what Vettel did was wrong and IMHO he deserved to be punished, he knows full well that Hamilton is always playing dirty and should have refrained from banging onto his car, it was totally unnecessary, he was alongside him, he could have told him to f*** off, IMHO he would have been right in telling Hamilton to f*** off, but that's it.>>

Yep. I am not convinced that Hamilton also deserved a penalty for brake testing.

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34 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

The stewards quity simply ignored the antefacts to Vettel's misdemeanor, what Vettel did was not right but it has been taken completely out of context

Initially we (I alone?) didn't hear anything about 3 demerit points, and I am wondering if those were added as afterthought when documents was written as response to Hamilton's complain that 10 sec S&G was inadequate punishment. 

Taken out of context, yeah, extenuating circumstance should have been taken into consideration. People may choose to not believe it, but those around and close to Seb describe him as incredibly honest and fair person. Makes no wonder than that I choose to believe him, rather than to Hamilton. Had he slept on the switch, Vettel would have admitted that much. I do not want to run synopsis of past cases, but Hamilton is known to suffer occasionally to differentiate a fact from a comment of convenience. Contextual consideration far to complex for some guys. 

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