Williams seat - 2018

[Sakae 0]

15 hours ago, Massa said:

(3) The F1 paddock says that about everyone who isn't from the dominant ethnic/racial group of their home country.  Wehrlein's not much different to work with from any other driver, but what is seen as "passion" or "fire" or "competitive spirit" in a white man is seen as disobedience and insubordination when it's someone else.

11 December 2017   9:51 (CET)

One can certainly find incidents, hopefully rare, when your assertion rings true, however it might be false conclusion when applied to international community as a whole. I give you that much, that tribalism, as pushback to abuse of globalism (searches for cheap labour) is on rise, and it affects people's brains, muddying judgements, however as with everything else, it's merely transitional phase we all go through. Race drivers of the F1 do have certain peculiarities which are uncommon to "normal" people, but paddock hopefully knows how to read them.   

This comment of course is not exactly supporting my case. Should be race conditions serve as an excuse of a** type of a man? Of course not.

https://streamable.com/pql1a

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

14 hours ago, Massa said:

(1) Correct.  He was dropped because Ferrari needed a place for a junior driver, and Marcus Ericsson's backers bought into the team.

(2) Wehrlein was doing just fine until Ericsson's backers bought into the team and fired Monisha Kaltenborn so that the underwhelming Ericsson could be the team leader.

(3) The F1 paddock says that about everyone who isn't from the dominant ethnic/racial group of their home country.  Wehrlein's not much different to work with from any other driver, but what is seen as "passion" or "fire" or "competitive spirit" in a white man is seen as disobedience and insubordination when it's someone else.

Wehrlein did a sterling job considering the car he had, he scored all the points for Sauber. He was dropped by Mercedes because they needed someone soft and cuddly to pair Hamilton and so a proper racing driver was out of the question. Re item #3 I still remember some of the comments that we had to endure about Perez, a racing driver who is so difficult to work with that his own team wasn't willing to let him go despite the fact that other teams wanted him, despite the fact that he wanted to go and despite being so difficult and unprofessional they didn't let him go even though said other teams were even willing to pay money to Force India for them to release him, yes Perez must be a very tough cocckie to work with, sure and what about Alonso? again difficult, unprofessional, non such a good driver yet, despite all this, his team accepted losing USD 100m + free engines only to keep him...

[Sakae 0]

World is not fair, and almost never in balance. There is always someone who bears more wrath of public perception than others, regardless whether it is fair or not. Pascal failed to make friends on places that mattered. Such is life.

[Ruslan 0]

11 hours ago, Sakae said:

Pascal failed to make friends on places that mattered. Such is life.

I am sorry, this is a sport....and the top level of motorsports. Really shouldn't be about who your friends are.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

according to Motorsport.com Italy the saga is over, Sirotkin will drive for Williams next year. Apparently he did much better than Kubica in Abu Dhabi, I'm not surprised that he did better than Kubica but I would have loved to see if he could have done better than Wehrlein and Kvyat. We shall see

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/williams-e-stato-scelto-sirotkin-e-gia-finita-la-favola-di-kubica-987831/

[Sakae 0]

I do not want to make any incendiary comments, but whole idea sounded loopy from the outset. Beats me why anyone spent any energy and time on it.

[Massa 0]

RE: Wehrlein, I also find it interesting that Monisha Kaltenborn and Marcus Ericsson have both been saying positive things about Pascal in recent days/weeks.  "Hard to work with" doesn't fit—the only person I know who didn't like working with Wehrlein was Esteban Ocon, who, incidentally, doesn't like working with Pérez.  One wonders if perhaps Ocon is the problem.

Also, people seem to forget that Wehrlein pulled himself from the early races because he didn't think he was at 100%.  The media dragged him for it.  Giovinazzi didn't even score points, but after one race, the media declared the ride Giovinazzi's permanently, and said Wehrlein had ruined his own career.  Wehrlein took a big risk and a big hit to his reputation with the "experts" for the benefit of the team.  Someone "hard to work with," I think, would've been selfish and insisted on staying in the car.

Oh, well.  He's off the grid in 2018, and I can only hope he'll get one more shot in the future, somehow.

[Sakae 0]

13 December 2017   3:59 (CET)

One wonders what Mercedes and Williams (add Sauber as well) know, that Pascal ended without a ride. I have no beef to grind with this guy, but there has to be something which converged into a big black hole in the middle, into which he felt with his career. Like many before him (famously with TR), I would not bet that he is ever coming back. Youngsters are knocking on the door.

Wolff:

“On track his performance was exceptional, and for many other reasons that go much beyond the driving the doors haven’t opened like we would have hoped.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

5 hours ago, Sakae said:

One wonders what Mercedes and Williams (add Sauber as well) know, that Pascal ended without a ride. I have no beef to grind with this guy, but there has to be something which converged into a big black hole in the middle, into which he felt with his career. Like many before him (famously with TR), I would not bet that he is ever coming back. Youngsters are knocking on the door.

for the argument's sake we can try to find reasons why Wehrlein couldn't find a seat at any of those teams, let me try:

- Mercedes: he could have been too much of a challenge for Hamilton AND to my knowledge he has never been managed by Wolff or any or Wolff's mates

- Williams: big no, he would have been much much better than Stroll and wasn't bringing any money

- Sauber: they need money and they just about managed to have 1 driver of their choice (the other being imposed by Ferrari), it is only natural that they chose the guy who brought in the funds that were instrumental in saving the team

any other take on the subject?

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

10 hours ago, Massa said:

RE: Wehrlein, I also find it interesting that Monisha Kaltenborn and Marcus Ericsson have both been saying positive things about Pascal in recent days/weeks.  "Hard to work with" doesn't fit—the only person I know who didn't like working with Wehrlein was Esteban Ocon, who, incidentally, doesn't like working with Pérez.  One wonders if perhaps Ocon is the problem.

also, I don't remember Wehrlein ever putting his team mate against the wall, but in a sense I agree that for his team mates it must be difficult to work with him (or with Perez) since it looks as if Pascal knows how to drive a car fast  

[Sakae 0]

2 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

for the argument's sake we can try to find reasons why Wehrlein couldn't find a seat at any of those teams, let me try:

- Mercedes: he could have been too much of a challenge for Hamilton AND to my knowledge he has never been managed by Wolff or any or Wolff's mates

- Williams: big no, he would have been much much better than Stroll and wasn't bringing any money

- Sauber: they need money and they just about managed to have 1 driver of their choice (the other being imposed by Ferrari), it is only natural that they chose the guy who brought in the funds that were instrumental in saving the team

any other take on the subject?

13 December 2017   11:57 (CET)

Is Wehrlein victim of his own success then? Interesting angle. I thought I will never hear this in F1 - you are too fast for your own good, fellow. 

Sakae

[Sakae 0]

12 hours ago, Massa said:

RE: Wehrlein, I also find it interesting that Monisha Kaltenborn and Marcus Ericsson have both been saying positive things about Pascal in recent days/weeks.  "Hard to work with" doesn't fit—the only person I know who didn't like working with Wehrlein was Esteban Ocon, who, incidentally, doesn't like working with Pérez.  One wonders if perhaps Ocon is the problem.

Also, people seem to forget that Wehrlein pulled himself from the early races because he didn't think he was at 100%.  The media dragged him for it.  Giovinazzi didn't even score points, but after one race, the media declared the ride Giovinazzi's permanently, and said Wehrlein had ruined his own career.  Wehrlein took a big risk and a big hit to his reputation with the "experts" for the benefit of the team.  Someone "hard to work with," I think, would've been selfish and insisted on staying in the car.

Oh, well.  He's off the grid in 2018, and I can only hope he'll get one more shot in the future, somehow.

13 December 2017   12:02 (CET)

I am not defending Ocon, but that fellow is an Alpha-male, and doesn't like being pushed into No. 2, or being slowed down by Perez, who too is not exactly a candidate for sainthood.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

14 minutes ago, Sakae said:

13 December 2017   11:57 (CET)

Is Wehrlein victim of his own success then? Interesting angle. I thought I will never hear this in F1 - you are too fast for your own good, fellow. 

Sakae

I'm in a hurry but one example springs to mind: Ayrton Senna refused to have Derek Warwick as his team mate because Warwick was too fast

[Ruslan 0]

12 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I'm in a hurry but one example springs to mind: Ayrton Senna refused to have Derek Warwick as his team mate because Warwick was too fast

You stole my post !!!!.

Yes....Ayrton Senna did publicly refuse to have Warwick on the team, and being the forthright jerk that he was, he told the press that Warwick was too fast and distracted attention from him (or something along that line). It was an amazing statement for a guy only a couple of years into F1. It was also the point when I really took a dislike to Senna, a dislike that was only amplified by his later actions.

Anyhow, Senna ended up with Johnny Dumphries as his teammate.

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

7 hours ago, Ruslan said:

Anyhow, Senna ended up with Johnny Dumphries as his teammate.

I think that Johnny Dumfries, or shall we say the Marquess of Bute?, was a good racing driver who could have achieved much more than he did had he been hungrier

[radical-one 0]

That's Williams since Claire stepped in.

It's all about money....

[Sakae 0]

11 hours ago, Ruslan said:

You stole my post !!!!.

Yes....Ayrton Senna did publicly refuse to have Warwick on the team, and being the forthright jerk that he was, he told the press that Warwick was too fast and distracted attention from him (or something along that line). It was an amazing statement for a guy only a couple of years into F1. It was also the point when I really took a dislike to Senna, a dislike that was only amplified by his later actions.

Anyhow, Senna ended up with Johnny Dumphries as his teammate.

14 December 2017   12:29 (CET)

So, you aren't really surprised then by my "love" in today's F1 for some drivers.

"...being the forthright jerk that he was..." don't say. Hamilton put him up and in the middle of his worship altar, aspiring to be like him (and succeeding admirably in that effort as far as I can tell).

Quote

One is inclined to believe that those extraneous reasons are to do with his (PW's) attitude. He was marked as the bad boy of the DTM series – BMW Motorsport boss Jens Marquardt said Wehrlein had to “calm down a bit” after a contentious move on Martin Tomczyk at Hockenheim in 2015.

Furthermore, on a couple of occasions at Manor, Wehrlein disregarded his engineer’s calls to switch off and save the engine – something crucial for a team struggling with finances. This was most notable in Free Practice for the Italian Grand Prix – he only obeyed at the seventh time of asking. Weeks later, after spinning in Practice at the Circuit of the Americas, it took numerous pleas for him to switch off the engine.

Doors are closing, fast.

 

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

21 minutes ago, Sakae said:

14 December 2017   12:29 (CET)

So, you aren't really surprised then by my "love" in today's F1 for some drivers.

"...being the forthright jerk that he was..." don't say. Hamilton put him up and in the middle of his worship altar, aspiring to be like him (and succeeding admirably in that effort as far as I can tell).

 

sure, but how many times did Hamilton, for example, disobey orders? I remember quite a few, so if Wehrlein is a bad sport because they had to ask him several times to turn off his engine the same should apply to Hamilton (or to any other driver on the grid, for that matter) who has an habit of non complying with much more important team orders

[Sakae 0]

17 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

sure, but how many times did Hamilton, for example, disobey orders? I remember quite a few, so if Wehrlein is a bad sport because they had to ask him several times to turn off his engine the same should apply to Hamilton (or to any other driver on the grid, for that matter) who has an habit of non complying with much more important team orders

14 December 2017   14:25 (CET)

Would you be surprised dear Cornelius by discovery of flexible law applied to favorites and something else to others in, and beyond paddock? Vettel, for example, was one of sacrificial lambs, being dragged to Paris for speaking loud how he felt, incurring demerit points and some hours of public service, yet when Mr. Verstappen committed similar sin, if not worse (Vettel was venting in the heat of race battle, MV was venting while sitting comfy after race in a chair), and merely got his writs slapped, yet gallery of "experts" did not say even boo, as an American (legacy) blogger noted. Such is dark side of the F1. Wehrlein is merely drinking another c#cktail of the same paddock bias and conflicting interests.

[Insider 0]

'Kubica given time to raise heavy dollars' the headline should read. The second seat decision is finance-led and that is that. Sirotkin is well-heeled but clearly Grove want to give Robert a go.

[radical-one 0]

Just in case Kvyat or Kubica may be able to top Sirotkin's buy-in money, Claire (The Gold digger) gave them until January.

They should just say 'Clair William's butt for sale, $15M or best offer, bidding closes January'

 

[Ruslan 0]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 2:13 AM, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I think that Johnny Dumfries, or shall we say the Marquess of Bute?, was a good racing driver who could have achieved much more than he did had he been hungrier

I liked the Marquess of Bute......he had a nice castle (they did a photo spread on it once).

[Ruslan 0]

10 hours ago, Insider said:

'Kubica given time to raise heavy dollars' the headline should read. The second seat decision is finance-led and that is that. Sirotkin is well-heeled but clearly Grove want to give Robert a go.

Well, at this point, it is the only seat in F1 not taken.....so......

[Publius Cornelius Scipio 0]

2 hours ago, Ruslan said:

Well, at this point, it is the only seat in F1 not taken.....so......

I know that everybody loves the nice story of Kubica's comeback but in a sense I think that he's the one who deserves it the least, he was slower (apparently significantly slower) than Sirotkin so out of the two I think that Sirotkin deserves it. Then there are Kvyat and Wehrlein: Kvyat is IMHO very talented, in his first year at RBR he beat Ricciardo. Wehrlein managed to score points for both Manor and Sauber, in both cases sterling results given the car that he had underneath him. So IMHO in pure performance terms that seat should either go to Kvyat or to Wehrlein. Well in an ideal world Williams should lay off Stroll and hire Kvyat and Wehrlein. That is not going to happen, sadly, so it's all down to money and whether any driver can cause problems to young Stroll. Sirotkin has got money, apparently he did very well in testing so he might give young Stroll some headaches. Kvyat doesn't seem to have much money at the moment and he's sure to give young Stroll many headaches. Same for Wehrlein who hasn't got money on his side but has got Mercedes, or he should have Mercedes at his side if they were honorable people. I really look forward to next month, I wonder i Kubica will be back in the picture, in the end he's got a lot of money (USD10m) and by the looks of it he might be the slowest out of the 4 contenders and that is obviously good for the Strolls. In a sense I would feel for Kubica if he was to be chosen only because he's no longer as fast as he used to be. given that it's Williams I really don't know what to think other than I am not 100% comfortable for their approach to people who risk their lives for Williams glory

[Ruslan 0]

If Sirotkin is as fast as they say, then her certainly deserves a ride, as does Kvyat, Wehrlein, and I suspect Kubica. The problem is there are four (or more) deserving candidates, and only one seat. There does need to be more seats. To many deserving drivers are getting screwed out of rides.