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Sakae

2018 F1 season - discussion

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True on TR. They need stronger drivers. But I am hoping that these youngsters can surprise us this season otherwise replace them next year.

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Well, Lauda claims they only lead by 2 tenths of a second. Lets see: 0.2 x 58 = 11.6. So is Mercedes going to spend the race tooling around 10 seconds ahead of the opposition (which he places Red Bull over Ferrari)? Is that 2 tenths of a second based upon Bottas' times, or 2 tenths of a second based upon Hamilton's times (who seems to always be 2 tenths of a second faster than Bottas)?

Anyhow, look forward to another season that may actually end up convincing everyone but Sakae (and possibly Ferrari) that they need a budget cap.

 

Source: https://www.gpguide.com/News.aspx?articleId=MXwwMy8yMS8yMDE4IDAwOjAwOjAwfE1lcmNlZGVzIGxlYWRzIGJ5IG9ubHkgdHdvIHRlbnRocyAtIExhdWRh

 

 

Edited by Ruslan

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Yeah, Sakae and possibly Ferrari are only two parties who think a budget cap (imposed upon technology sector) makes no sense. I feel really special.

Edited by Sakae

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On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 11:55 AM, Ruslan said:

Well, Lauda claims they only lead by 2 tenths of a second. Lets see: 0.2 x 58 = 11.6. So is Mercedes going to spend the race tooling around 10 seconds ahead of the opposition (which he places Red Bull over Ferrari)? Is that 2 tenths of a second based upon Bottas' times, or 2 tenths of a second based upon Hamilton's times (who seems to always be 2 tenths of a second faster than Bottas)?

Well....based upon Practice 1 times....it is 2 tenths of a second based upon Bottas. Hamilton was more than half second faster than Bottas.

Well, the weekend has just started, but this could be a very, very long season for anyone that is not a Hamilton fan.

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Rosberg advised drivers as opponents to Hamilton to pack up and go home. (Issue of inadequacy to compete.)

D.Hill advised MB and Ferrari to pack up and go home. (Sport will be better without you.)

And who said F1 is running out of ideas? These are just two of most recent ones.

Edited by Sakae

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Looks like some (if not all) teams in the paddock are getting fed-up with MB, represented by Hamilton, running abnormal qualification setup in his last lap to win a pole position by a large margin. Horner is obviously not believing Hamilton's claims to the contrary, and is suggesting to freeze the qualification setup under parc ferme rules for the race. Statistics like 71 poles for MB out of 80 in hybrid era should give FiA pause, but I am not sure it has. This condition on MB setup, if confirmed, is against interest of F1 especially in age when many are complaining how difficult it is to overtake. Hamilton's fans may like it, but normal people do not.   

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At the next round in Bahrain, Liberty Media will present the blueprints for 2021, with the main focus being on the new engine regulations which are set to come into play. After Mercedes and Ferrari spoke out against Liberty's initial plans which were showcased last year, Brawn has called for the whole F1 community to come together.

Any bets how this will end up?

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F1 LOOKING TO ADD ADDITIONAL DRS ZONES AT CIRCUITS

Not sure that will address fundamental issues. In Melbourne one new DRS zone (total 3) was added, and we are all up to date how that "helped".

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On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 0:32 PM, Sakae said:

19 March 2018, 17:31 - Est. team budgets for 2018 (origins unknown)

Mercedes Approx. €450 million
Ferrari Approx. €430 million
Red Bull Approx. €350 million
McLaren Approx. €250 million
Renault Approx. €200 million
Sauber Approx. €135 million
Williams Approx. €135 million
Toro Rosso Approx. €125 million
Haas Approx. €110 million
Force India Approx. €110 million

 

I like this post.....let me play with it a bit:

Cost per point (after Australia):

  1. Ferrari $10.75 million
  2. Mercedes: $20.45 million
  3. Red Bull: 17.50
  4. McLaren: 20.83
  5. Renault: 28.57

Sauber, Williams, Toro Rosso, Haas and Force India: N/A

 

 

Edited by Ruslan

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Points are there to keep score, however I am not convinced that you can put price tag on fame and prestige. Human is a creature of excesses, the only reason why we have racing in F1. 

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13 hours ago, Ruslan said:

I like this post.....let me play with it a bit:

Cost per point (after Australia):

  1. Ferrari $10.75 million
  2. Mercedes: $20.45 million
  3. Red Bull: 17.50
  4. McLaren: 20.83
  5. Renault: 28.57

Sauber, Williams, Toro Rosso, Haas and Force India: N/A

 

 

Force India looks to be in deep trouble once again

http://new.grandprix.com/news/force-india-admits-race-for-f1-survival.html

a business where the 4th best entrant out of 10 is in financial troubles despite no apparent reason other than lack of revenues by sponsors IMHO is a business model that cannot go on. My sense is that the manufacturers are trying to change this, one of the things that they have said is try to make sensible arrangements with the race organizers: taking a lot of money to go racing in the middle of nowhere doesn't make sense, they should go racing where there is interested and where the fans can spend enough money to justify the sponsors' investment (ie Europe, Japan, North America primarily) and only then look to build a presence elsewhere

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Deputy team principal Bob Fernley revealed to Auto Bild that when he requested a financial advance from Liberty Media – a common request from teams – on the back of their 2017 income, they were blocked,

He explained, “For that to happen we needed the unanimous approval of the other teams, but Williams decided to veto.”

 

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6 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

a business where the 4th best entrant out of 10 is in financial troubles despite no apparent reason other than lack of revenues by sponsors IMHO is a business model that cannot go on.

Well, we agree on the problem. The infuriating thing with talking with some others is that they actually claim that there isn't a problem (if they can't afford to be there...they should not be there).

I notice the Red Bull is now giving Liberty is clear open support. So........it looks like a budget cap and a redistribution of revenues is on the way (for 2021? I think it needs to sooner).

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Ruslan said:

Well, we agree on the problem. The infuriating thing with talking with some others is that they actually claim that there isn't a problem (if they can't afford to be there...they should not be there).

I notice the Red Bull is now giving Liberty is clear open support. So........it looks like a budget cap and a redistribution of revenues is on the way (for 2021? I think it needs to sooner).

I've never said that F1 couldn't be less expensive, however you are correct on quoting me (and J. Todt) regarding several teams insistence on being a member of a club which they cannot afford. Weird. 

Budget will solve exactly nothing, and when enforced, it will create a series with different character, which some of teams might not like and will leave. Forget about open membership, so teams can come and go as you've once suggested. That idea was shot down last week. 

Cost or building a racing car has to be reflective of normative references. If you want to fly on the moon, it will cost you. It's simple as that, and that's what we have in F1. Hamilton drives a rocket with some party modulation (so we hear). Seb drives (for now) San Francisco tram, but it will improve as they are working on it.

Edited by Sakae

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39 minutes ago, Ruslan said:

Well, we agree on the problem. The infuriating thing with talking with some others is that they actually claim that there isn't a problem (if they can't afford to be there...they should not be there).

I notice the Red Bull is now giving Liberty is clear open support. So........it looks like a budget cap and a redistribution of revenues is on the way (for 2021? I think it needs to sooner).

 

 

I think that we all agree that there is a problem, the problem is that the solution should be imposed by the FIA, if the teams start negotiating with the commercial rights holder then they will never find a solution

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I would think changes in F1 have to be some kind of a Tripartite Agreement, similar to CA. Surely FiA should work on details later on how to implement such agreement, however basic framework has to have broader participation. Should FiA decided to act alone, they may actually harm the commercial interest if several teams simply left in disagreement, because they have not liked what's on the paper. 

We do not know what Renault and Honda will do. They remained silent up to now. 

Edited by Sakae

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Troubles on the F1 horizon.

  • Renault wants to freeze PU development. Funny thing, I thought they are behind, and need to catch up. What about Honda?
  • McLaren/Force India accusing Haas from driving last year Ferrari. Somebody will be really pis*d.

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31 March 2018, 08:40 (CEST)

FOG will articulate new PU specifications I guess (denotes "maybe") in several months, such is the promise. Renault, as mentioned earlier, does not want to run parallel developments on two tracks, old and new, thus asking for moratorium on current PU (and heck with Honda and their clients). Implications of such developments then are, at least as I read it, current PU will end its term with the current CA. Sounds like done deal.

IMHO, F1 is becoming more expensive (again) in hands of FiA and FOG, because the change will require new investment, whilst current PU probably is nowhere near to harvest benefits from what was invested into this technology, despite being road cars relevant, as Dr. Zetsche stated. Interesting approach by Mr. Brawn how to save money (for some of his friends, but not by everyone as rest seems to be thrown under the bus). There was time, not too long ago actually, when I used to like and revere the man, only to turn red faced today.

Some people were hoping to lure new automobile companies in. Must be then Cosworth, and maybe Ford or GM if they have cash. Audi is interested in 4 cylinders, but that will probably not wash with some of the ideas we hard from RB and others. Could be pretty volatile situation ahead of us.

Edited by Sakae

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So what are you proposing instead:

1. Continue development of current power units for the next two years while producing new power units or....

2. No new power unit in 2021?

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31 March 2018, 18:29 (CEST)

I am undecided on what to do, since I am not privy to plans beyond 2021. In brainstorming mode I would consider immediate freeze of PU output parameters (Ferrari and MB) around values where Ferrari is, and let MB to detuned their unit to such level. Then I would let Renault and Honda to catch up and decide how much effort and money they want to invest on path to convergence. If Renault wants to surrender, fine, their decision.

Beyond 2021 - hard to do any plans without LM actually defining sport in more concrete terms. PU is getting less expensive, and I have no problem with that technology. The only change which should be instituted ASAP is more driver's independence off engineering during a race, team cutting the cord with data being transmitted to the home base in real time, and similar bag of tricks. In 2024 there should be mandated next evolutionary generation of technology. 

Urgent focus should be on aero and rubber. Both are "wrong" right now IMO. There is no point to take primacy away from MB, and hand it all to RBR, jumping from one mess into another one.

F1 never will be smörgåsbord, open venue of a kind, where anyone can come and go at will.

Edited by Sakae

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On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 0:29 PM, Sakae said:

31 March 2018, 18:29 (CEST)

In brainstorming mode I would consider immediate freeze of PU output parameters (Ferrari and MB) around values where Ferrari is, and let MB to detuned their unit to such level. Then I would let Renault and Honda to catch up and decide how much effort and money they want to invest on path to convergence. If Renault wants to surrender, fine, their decision.

Really....you with the "let them eat cake" attitude towards budget issues...now want to deliberately detune one competitor to the advantage of another (conveniently Ferrari) and leave the others in catch up mode.

And people are already complaining about favoritism towards certain teams (usually Mercedes or Ferrari....depending on the person's bias).

Anyhow, this idea is a non-starter as it deliberately manipulates the situation to favor one team.

 

<<Beyond 2021 - hard to do any plans without LM actually defining sport in more concrete terms.>>

Well, this part of the problem....is that at this point no one knows what F1 is and everyone disagrees over what it should be.

 

 <<The only change which should be instituted ASAP is more driver's independence off engineering during a race, team cutting the cord with data being transmitted to the home base in real time, and similar bag of tricks.>>

I think there is a strong argument that the driver (and car) should be able to communicate with the team, but the team cannot communicate back except for safety issues. Not sure I would implement such a change, but I certainly would discuss it.

 

<<Urgent focus should be on aero and rubber. Both are "wrong" right now IMO. There is no point to take primacy away from MB, and hand it all to RBR, jumping from one mess into another one.>>

I agree, but I suspect that our solutions differ. I would remove wings and allow competition among tire manufacturers.

 

<<F1 never will be smörgåsbord, open venue of a kind, where anyone can come and go at will.>>

Actually it always was that way until Bernie and Max manipulated things so that it was not. For the majority of F1 history, anyone with a car that fit the regulations and could qualify fastest enough could come race. There were no artificial restrictions beyond that. F1 was better for it. I don't understand why they have created barriers to entry.

 

Let me restate the question....so we know what we are discussing:

So what are you proposing instead:

1. Continue development of current power units for the next two years while producing new power units or....

2. No new power unit in 2021?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ruslan said:

Really....you with the "let them eat cake" attitude towards budget issues...now want to deliberately detune one competitor to the advantage of another (conveniently Ferrari) and leave the others in catch up mode.And people are already complaining about favoritism towards certain teams (usually Mercedes or Ferrari....depending on the person's bias). Anyhow, this idea is a non-starter as it deliberately manipulates the situation to favor one team.

You've misunderstood. OK, detune it to Renault level, instead Ferrari. I thought that would be too much power lost, but whatever. Point is, do not allow MB (and maybe Ferrari) to run off in this department. You asked me what I would do, so I told you - good for the sport, not for benefit of 1 team. Convergence of PU(s) in terms of output would be OK for next 3 years IMO.

Quote

<<Beyond 2021 - hard to do any plans without LM actually defining sport in more concrete terms.>>

Well, this part of the problem....is that at this point no one knows what F1 is and everyone disagrees over what it should be.

 <<The only change which should be instituted ASAP is more driver's independence off engineering during a race, team cutting the cord with data being transmitted to the home base in real time, and similar bag of tricks.>>

I think there is a strong argument that the driver (and car) should be able to communicate with the team, but the team cannot communicate back except for safety issues. Not sure I would implement such a change, but I certainly would discuss it.

There are too many issues to resolve them in one sentence, but you get a drift of it. IMO it is not healthy that Tata Com. is connecting in real time MB with home base in England, and whatever benefit they have of it, it gives them advantage which is not available to others. There are many more of this kind.

Quote

<<F1 never will be smörgåsbord, open venue of a kind, where anyone can come and go at will.>>

Actually it always was that way until Bernie and Max manipulated things so that it was not. For the majority of F1 history, anyone with a car that fit the regulations and could qualify fastest enough could come race. There were no artificial restrictions beyond that. F1 was better for it. I don't understand why they have created barriers to entry.

MB and Ferrari are opposed to this idea, and I can understand why.

Let me restate the question....so we know what we are discussing:

So what are you proposing instead:

1. Continue development of current power units for the next two years while producing new power units or....

2. No new power unit in 2021?

#1 was answered above. I am proposing moratorium on further development. Implementation - create fire wall with the set of max. parameters, which front teams cannot cross. Honda can continue until they catch main pack.

#2 In 2021 - the same PU what we have, but simpler (two or three modules should be combined into one) and independent of external eng. support in real time.

#3 The PU in 2024 - new generation. Simpler over what we have now, but technologically more advanced. Driver should be driving, not saving fuel and equipment because of reliability concerns.

 

Edited by Sakae

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Yea, I suspect they need to move the new 2021 power unit up to 2020, if not 2019.....along with a budget cap put in place at least a year before the engines are to debut.

 

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Ross Brawn 'offended' by Sergio Marchionne's comments over DNA of F1

Ross, once was said, had been in bad relationship with BE as well. The CA deal with MB was inked only after Lauda was asked to step into his current function, negotiate in lieu of Brawn and save a day. If it is as bad as the quoted headline is implying, then I do not expect any miracles at the negotiating table, despite that one would think this is not time to get pi**y.

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