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Sakae

Race 4 - F1 2018 AZERBAIJAN GRAND PRIX

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Lively race. A little bit of NASCAR-like safety car inspired action.

1. Bottas: Had a well-earned win. Just bad luck, nothing he could of done about it.

2. Vettel: What was he thinking? He threw away a championship lead pulling off an amateurish passing attempt.

3. Verstappen-Ricciardo: Kind of Verstappen's fault. When he cut back in front of Ricciardo, he not only gave him no room, but took away front wing downforce, so Ricciardo couldn't slow down enough. The punt in the rear was a direct result of Verstappen's driving. Seems like Verstappen crashes with someone every race. At least he is a equal opportunity offender, crashing with Mercedes, Ferraris and even Red Bulls. On the other hand.....Ricciardo was pulling off a risky move for exactly the reasons given above. He could of chosen not to try such a risky pass.

4. Perez: This guy keeps performing no matter what. He really belongs in a top team.

5. Alonso: Remains the best of the rest if you look at the point totals.

6. Leclerc: This guy is very good.

7. Raikkonen-Ocon: I really like Ocon, but the majority of accidents are his fault, as was this one.

 

Congrats to Hamilton on being gifted a win after having one stolen from him earlier in the season. He also did not produce a stellar drive (although better than a lot of others).

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7 hours ago, Sakae said:

Verstappen is ripe to sit a race or two just to calm down, not that DR was all that clean either.

I feel sorry for Gasly. Charles bugger his qualifications attempts, then both had almost terrible clash due to Charles driving in slow speed on a racing line (Pierre was moving around him at 300km +), and to top miserable pre-race events, Kevin Mag. took a swing into him in a race and instead likely P7 (from P17) our thereabout Pierre ended up in P12.

What a day, what a weekend.

 

I'm with Verstappen on this one. He had to defend and and was allowed one defensive move. Ric was just too over-eager. I guess it's karma for inheriting such a lucky win at China

Pity for Vettel, but he had to try to win. Vettel lost the lead basically with the horrible race in China, not due to his fault

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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Vettel explain his case here.

If someone wants to deride him, I guess they will do so regardless of circumstances. Similar scoffing comments (Ruslan) about Vettel were posted on the internet long time ago after Verstappen has taken diving into impossible places, and was cheered for it. That's internet.

Edited by Sakae

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22 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Vettel explain his case here.

If someone wants to deride him, I guess they will do so regardless of circumstances. Similar scoffing comments (Ruslan) about Vettel were posted on the internet long time ago after Verstappen has taken diving into impossible places, and was cheered for it. That's internet.

I have never seen a champion who's happy with 2nd place. He had to take the risk

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9 hours ago, Ruslan said:

Lively race. A little bit of NASCAR-like safety car inspired action.

that's my problem with the race, sure it was eventful but once again a race decided by the SC

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The race yesterday was entertaining, not a classic in terms of pure racing. Oh and I have a very big issue with such a long straight with the start/finish line after over 1,5 km, IMHO it is too dangerous, espeically with the DRS and with so many SC restarts

Vettel - IMHO he deserved to win, he drove very well and without the SC no one could have touched him. I don't agree that he made a mistake, they were all very close and had he lifted to stay behind Bottas (and he had to lift because thanks to Bottas' tow he was going much faster than him) Hamilton and Raikkonen would have passed him. Pity with no reference point for braking and with cold tyres he went a bit long. IMHO he had to try to make a move. Having said that on such a long straight the restart line for the SC should be closer to the last turn, as we have seen in the past when they restart they are all very close one to the other and that it dangerous. Also regarding Vettel I think that the pit wall was wrong in calling him in, with the fresh tures he couldn't match the pace that he had with his first set of rubber, they should have waited in case anything happened, as did Mercedes with Bottas and RBR, especially considering that often Vettel looks after the tyres better than some of his peers

Bottas - sure losing a race in that way with only 3 laps to go is brutal, but without the SC he wouldn't have been leading so IMHO he's not the one who has to complain more. He drove ok, I don't think that he did anything extraordinary yesterday, he even got the restart wrong.

Hamilton - yesterday he didn't deserve to win and he knew it and IMHO that means that the guy is learing, yesterday he was lucky and I'm glad that he had the sense to admit it. One has to wonder what's wrong with him these days, he looks like he's not there with all his heart, maybe he's tired and burnt out, a bit like Vettel in 2014, I think that it can happen when you come from several very intense years under the spotlight

Raikkonen - a very sad race from him, he was completely off the pace, he punted Ocon off the road (I think that it was Kimi's fault and that he should have been punished) and in the end he didn't even try to fight Hamilton notwithstanding the slipstreming. I was speachless when I saw Kimi's last few laps. Very sad, considering what he used to be

Perez - despite being on the harder compound during the last few laps he kept his cool and managed to stay with much faster cars. Before he was very unlucky when he was punted by Sirotkin. He deserves to be in a top team

Ricciardo - I think that he had a fantastic race. I think that the accident was mostly Verstappen's fault, when Vertsappen moved to the right Ricciardo could only move to the left, remember than with the DRS on such a long straight he was going over 20 kmh faster than Verstappen. As soon as Verstappen close to the left (2nd move...) Ricciardo lost any downforce and no longer had any room to brake or avoid contact. Ricciardo needs to sign with Ferrari

Versbatten - he has been criticized for years for moving under braking and yesterday he did it again and he crashed onto his team mate. I know that he did much worse in the past but I really think that they need to give him at least a 3 race ban, he's becoming an embarassement, he's very talented but he's squandering his talent repeating time and again the same mistakes. Sitting a few races would be the best thing that could happen to him

Sainz - he's back! Great!

Leclerc - Wow, that was quite a drive, he was very competitive from the start, very very impressive

Alonso - notwithstanding what happened to him on the first lap (IMHO it wasn't Sirotkin's fault but Hulkenberg's and in fairness to Nico he probably hadn't noticed that he had 2 cars to his left) he ended 7th, no matter what they throw at him he always delivers. I find it very sad that his talent his wasted with a midfield car

Stewards - IMHO appaling. They didn't punish Raikkonen for the first lap accident with Ocon despite always punishing such moves, then they punisehed Sirotkin for no apparent reason. Then they allowed Bottas to slow down on the main straight before entering the pit lane despite the fact that in the past such moves had been punished (Vettel if I remember correctly), and finally didn't punish Versbatten for changing line twice and causing an accident. Speechless

Edited by Publius Cornelius Scipio

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7 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

I'm with Verstappen on this one. He had to defend and and was allowed one defensive move.

that's exactly my problem with Versbatten on this one... he was allowed one defensive move but decided that it wasn't enough and he took another one :rolleyes:

Edited by Publius Cornelius Scipio

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Several Italian media outlets appear upset over last race outcome, and both drivers are under heavy fire. The scene seems slightly irrational.

Edited by Sakae

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7 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

that's my problem with the race, sure it was eventful but once again a race decided by the SC

I agree.....it was weird. Of course, in Indy Car they have always used the safety car (and NASCAR uses it to the extreme). F1 almost never used to use them. I have always been ambivalent about it. It can be really unfair, it messes up race strategies, makes the race more random, is not pure racing, etc. On the other hand, it does liven up a race.

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12 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

I have never seen a champion who's happy with 2nd place. He had to take the risk

I don't object to him trying....but he braked way too late. He needed to get beside Bottas under braking...not in front of him !!! Granted he had cold tires, etc....but he has been racing for a while. He should know by now. He just misjudged the braking and flat spotted his tires. So, he dropped back to fourth and was unable to compete for the rest of race. A do or die move makes sense on the last lap......it does not make sense with three laps to go and when the entire field is sitting right on your tail. It was a mistake.

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It takes a lot of self-confidence to advise the Champ after 10 years of active racing from an armchair in front of TV how to take a corner in situation Vettel found himself. After all, it looks so easy on Monday morning. Vettel actually revealed that he wanted to go around Bottas on the outside, but it was a racing line Hamilton occupied, so he took what was available and tires let him down.

Edited by Sakae

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9 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

Raikkonen - a very sad race from him, he was completely off the pace, he punted Ocon off the road (I think that it was Kimi's fault and that he should have been punished) and in the end he didn't even try to fight Hamilton notwithstanding the slipstreming. I was speachless when I saw Kimi's last few laps. Very sad, considering what he used to be...

Stewards - IMHO appaling. They didn't punish Raikkonen for the first lap accident with Ocon despite always punishing such moves, then they punisehed Sirotkin for no apparent reason.

Mr Publius...

I value your input...really I do. Consistenly you provide good insight/input and fair analysis. But your constant battering of Kimi is getting abit... tiring. Sure, he should've been on pole, sure he banged his wheels hard againt a wall at full speed and almost did'nt finish the race. Sure he has had some incidents these last few races, surely he has lost some of his edge. But I look at the standings currently and I see Ferrari at the top and Kimi in 3rd place in the WDC. Surely it's not just about his racecraft but his input in the team. Ferrari must still see something in him. In actual fact, Lauda stated that Kimi is currently as fast if not faster than Vettel. I don't believe that, Vettel during a race is just a master of extracting the best out of tyres and his race management is unequalled. It's plain to see. It does'nt help that Kimi always had some atrocious luck mind you.

Getting back to the point. Surely there's some shortcomings with these new inexperienced drivers. I mean, was Ocon SERIOUSLY not aware of Kimi on his inside. The way he turned into the corner shows, like Bottas for example, a lack of spatial awareness. It's like they don't care what's happening around them. Was that Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso... that crash would NOT have happened!

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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9 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

that's exactly my problem with Versbatten on this one... he was allowed one defensive move but decided that it wasn't enough and he took another one :rolleyes:

I've got some beef with you today :P

One could say that Verstappen read his teammate's intentions almost perfectly. Ric shows the dummy, Verstappen moves to the right then switches back to cover it! Because it's not at the entry of the corner the move is deemed acceptable. That's why Verstappen was'nt punished! No matter what beef we as armchair experts have on the Verstappen move! It can be reckless and someday may cause a serious accident...

I reason I side with Verstappen this time is becoz of his understanding of the situation. It was GREAT to watch him at whatever cost try to keep his faster teammate on fresher tyres at bag. Because Ric always gets "away with it" (hint: he relies on the other competitor not to crash into him or do something stupid), the moves always look spectacular. This time he paid the penalty!

 

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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54 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Mr Publius...

I value your input...really I do. Consistenly you provide good insight/input and fair analysis. But your constant battering of Kimi is getting abit... tiring. Sure, he should've been on pole, sure he banged his wheels hard againt a wall at full speed and almost did'nt finish the race. Sure he has had some incidents these last few races, surely he has lost some of his edge. But I look at the standings currently and I see Ferrari at the top and Kimi in 3rd place in the WDC. Surely it's not just about his racecraft but his input in the team. Ferrari must still see something in him. In actual fact, Lauda stated that Kimi is currently as fast if not faster than Vettel. I don't believe that, Vettel during a race is just a master of extracting the best out of tyres and his race management is unequalled. It's plain to see. It does'nt help that Kimi always had some atrocious luck mind you.

But that is exactly the point, Kimi is not Ericsson, Kimi knows how to drive fast and how to win, he has settled into #2 mode, IMHO yesterday he could have won, ok I've seen that he nearly crashed against the barriers after the last SC restart and I must have missed that earlier on but still do you really think that Kimi in "2005 mode" would have let Hamilton go unchallenged? I don't

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1 minute ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

But that is exactly the point, Kimi is not Ericsson, Kimi knows how to drive fast and how to win, he has settled into #2 mode, IMHO yesterday he could have won, ok I've seen that he nearly crashed against the barriers after the last SC restart and I must have missed that earlier on but still do you really think that Kimi in "2005 mode" would have let Hamilton go unchallenged? I don't

I did'nt see anybody besides Vettel make an attempt at overtaking in the final stages. Case in point Vettel, look how that turned out.  Plus Kimi was on soft tyres on a long stint which could'nt possibly allow for an overtake. His tyres was more shot than Hamilton

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36 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

I've got some beef with you today :P

One could say that Verstappen read his teammate's intentions almost perfectly. Ric shows the dummy, Verstappen moves to the right then switches back to cover it! Because it's not at the entry of the corner the move is deemed acceptable. That's why Verstappen was'nt punished! No matter what beef we as armchair experts have on the Verstappen move! It can be reckless and someday may cause a serious accident...

Of course Versbatten knew what Ricciardo was about to do, we all knew that, Ricciardo always does that, that why so many people like him (myself included :scarf:). To my knowldge the second move is not acceptable and in clear breach of the sporting regs. IMHO Versbatten wasn't punished because he gets a special treatment, like so many others in the past

 

Besides I really like the nickname that Max has been given by the Italian fans, Versbatten (sbattere = to crash)

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6 minutes ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

Of course Versbatten knew what Ricciardo was about to do, we all knew that, Ricciardo always does that, that why so many people like him (myself included :scarf:). To my knowldge the second move is not acceptable and in clear breach of the sporting regs. IMHO Versbatten wasn't punished because he gets a special treatment, like so many others in the past

 

Besides I really like the nickname that Max has been given by the Italian fans, Versbatten (sbattere = to crash)

No it is'nt in breach!!! The Verstappen move was cleared as acceptable beginning of 2017 season!

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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3 hours ago, Sakae said:

It takes a lot of self-confidence to advise the Champ after 10 years of active racing from an armchair in front of TV how to take a corner in situation Vettel found himself. After all, it looks so easy on Monday morning. Vettel actually revealed that he wanted to go around Bottas on the outside, but it was a racing line Hamilton occupied, so he took what was available and tires let him down.

He muffed the braking. Why do you have such a hard time accepting that?

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1 minute ago, Ruslan said:

He muffed the braking. Why do you have such a hard time accepting that?

It's extremely  difficult to accurately judge the corner from the line that Vettel had at full speed. Plus he had just completed the process of an overtake. At least he attempted! Maybe you should watch the highlights again

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14 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

I did'nt see anybody besides Vettel make an attempt at overtaking in the final stages. Case in point Vettel, look how that turned out.  Plus Kimi was on soft tyres on a long stint which could'nt possibly allow for an overtake. His tyres was more shot than Hamilton

Perez passed Vettel in the closing laps, I'm sure that there were other passes, especially thanks to the slipstreaming

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8 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

No it is'nt in breach!!! The Verstappen move was cleared as acceptable beginning of 2017 season!

If I understand the speed and aerodynamics correctly, it does not matter what the regulations say. The second weave was a move that was going to guarantee a crash. I don't think that is particularly clever...even less so when it is your teammate.

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4 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

It's extremely  difficult to accurately judge the corner from the line that Vettel had at full speed. Plus he had just completed the process of an overtake. At least he attempted! Maybe you should watch the highlights again

Let me just repeat part of one my previous posts....are we are starting to go in circles on this:

"A do or die move makes sense on the last lap......it does not make sense with three laps to go and when the entire field is sitting right on your tail. It was a mistake."

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There are too many variables to consider leaving it to the last lap, especially with equal competitive machinery. Vettel saw his best chance at the restart... and went for it! If he pulled it off we would all be singing his praises!... well actually... not you.

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1 hour ago, BradSpeedMan said:

... well actually... not you.

I think if you check my past posts you will see that I have been pretty consistent in considering Vettel to be one of the top three drivers in F1 right now.

But.....having watched decades of CART, IndyCar, etc....where safety cars are common....we have seen this story before. You can obviously gain a position or two on the re-start....but......you have to do it right. Vettel didn't do it right. Sorry, that your favored driver made a mistake. Hamilton went off track earlier in the race; Verstappen and Ricciardo crashed into each other; Raikkonen didn't do anything particularly spectacular, as is the case now on a lot these days. A lot of people's favorite drivers didn't have a great day yesterday.

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12 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

It's extremely  difficult to accurately judge the corner from the line that Vettel had at full speed. Plus he had just completed the process of an overtake. At least he attempted! Maybe you should watch the highlights again

Vettel had no reference point at that moment, he was travelling much faster than Bottas, had his view partly limited by bottas' car, was travelling at a speed significantly diffetrent from what he was used to at that very point, had his tyres not up to their optimal operating temperature, was off the racing line and had his rear view mirrors full with Hamilton and Raikkonen's cars, and when he moved out of Bottas' tow he got much more downforce to confuse him,and despite all that he missed it by no more than 3 metres

I watched the race from London and at the first SC restart David Coulthard said that very few drivers would try to pass because they had no reference point for the braking. The difference between the first and the second SC restart is that in the 2nd restart the car behind the leader was much closer and in a sense had no other option but to try

 

Edited by Publius Cornelius Scipio

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