Clicky

Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ruslan

Revised Formula One Plans

Recommended Posts

Interesting article today on GPToday: http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/715041/Ferrari_tried_to_avoid_longer_lockdown_due_to_its_own_circumstances/

It does address several points about the new rules for F1. They include:

1. The new rule have been postponed to 2022.

  • Christain Horner suggested they be postponed to 2023.

2. The budget cap is still coming in 2021.

  • This is good news, as the budget cap is now being put in place before the rule changes. That is the way it should have been done.
  • The original cap of $175 million will be reduced.
  • Maybe to $150, which is desired by larger teams.
  • Maybe to $125
  • Probably not $100, which is what the smaller teams want.

3. Factories are still closed and will be for at least two more weeks

  • And I suspect for longer than that.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Date 2020.04.09   Time 5:38 (UTC)

I am probably wasting my breath in re-stating, that I do oppose installation of budget. It is one of the most anti-competitive and expensive measures in recent F1 history. Accountants, lawyers and people who do like to invade other people's privacy (sticking their noses into business which is not their business) will however love it. 

The measure will not balance raw power among teams, because baselines are different. In athletics 100 m dash have them on the same start line. This is not a case here. Those who are ahead will retain their advantage, whereas the others will never catch them because they need more resources to "do catching", but budget will restrain that effort.

Besides, is the quoted 100 number the same in terms of purchasing power what you can buy for that amount in Germany, Italy, France, EU general, UK and US? I do seriously doubt it. 

Technology sector is not the same as some other group sports, but it is being treated the same. 

There is a lot of not well thought out issues IMHO.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sakae said:

Date 2020.04.09   Time 5:38 (UTC)

 (sticking their noses into business which is not their business) will however love it. 

The measure will not balance raw power among teams, because baselines are different. In athletics 100 m dash have them on the same start line. This is not a case here. Those who are ahead will retain their advantage, whereas the others will never catch them because they need more resources to "do catching", but budget will restrain that effort.

Besides, is the quoted 100 number the same in terms of purchasing power what you can buy for that amount in Germany, Italy, France, EU general, UK and US? I do seriously doubt it. 

Technology sector is not the same as some other group sports, but it is being treated the same. 

There is a lot of not well thought out issues IMHO.

 

1 hour ago, Sakae said:

Date 2020.04.09   Time 5:38 (UTC)

sticking their noses into business which is not their business

 

If they R IN F1, then it IS their business.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Err no, they are making it their business. There is difference. Try to do it today, and they take your head off. Tomorrow is a new day of privacy invasion, and you can get away with it. In business what was a crime before, they simply changed laws, and its all legal...the same principle.

Read the latest headlines. Binotto has figured out problems ahead thus he is suggesting different budgets for different teams. Well good luck with that, when aim is to bring big teams down on their knees.

I just would suggest to automakers to leave series, and work on a new one with some common sense. After that F1 can return to V10 and pollute Silverstone as much as they like, and as long as public allow them. I doubt they would be allowed to do the same on the continent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Date 2020.04.09   Time 13:41 (UTC) - BUDGET

Binotto

Quote

“We are discussing a budget-cap reduction but we should not forget in doing that exercise that we’ve got different structures, and different assets,” he told Sky Sports F1. “There are teams which are constructors like Ferrari and other top teams where we are designing, developing, homologating and producing each single component of our cars.

“Other teams are customers, buying some parts, and do not have the same structures. So when discussing a budget cap we must not forget we have different situations, and it’s important we found a common ground which is suited to the different situations and maybe the answer is not a single budget cap equal for all the teams.”

Mr. Binotto remind me of important differences between supply teams, and their customer, which basically makes equal budgeting between teams even less sensical. Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and later perhaps also Honda allocate portions of their budget on research and development. It is cost burden which customers don't share to full extend. Makes sense that supply teams keep their mandated budget at different level.

I retain believe that best (organic) regulator of cost of participating in racing is market economy which influences team's budget. Technical regulations is the other one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyhow It appears from Zak Brown interviews that 8 of the teams wanted a budget cap below $150 million, and that Red Bull and Ferrari were opposed to this (but not Mercedes). So I gather the budget cap is going to be $150 million.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Teams aren't ready to work on current car with that kind of change imposed upon them.

55 or 150 - it doesn't matter. I have 100 and 1 questions about that budget, yet not a single answer is available anywhere I look. I am not sure however why should I be surprised. That's the normal way how F1 operates for decades. First DO, and then THINK. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Date 2020.04.12   Time 13:16 (UTC) COST ISSUES

16 races in 6 months is just too expensice

For all that talk how keen F1 wants to cut on cost, they really don't act like that, are they? Frédéric Vasseur at least has guts to tel the truth, which you won't hear that from Brawn or Todt. 16 races benefits primarily to Liberty, s***w the teams. It is good explanation of potential impact upon cost to the team when races are crammed one after another. It is puzzling that only one team manger speaks about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Financially they all need a full season. This is not just Liberty that relies on marketing F1 for their income. They are all in the same boat together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Date 2020.04.12   Time 16:15 (UTC) - Assuming there is any racing this year (which I doubt), then:

Err no, sorry. Teams are not in the same boat. Front teams will be rewarded with higher pay after season which offsets to some extend increased operating expenses for cramming the schedule, whereas a small team like Fred is managing will get hit pretty badly, unless this year there are some temp. one-off provisions made to help them. Alfa will spend more for facilitating this insane schedule than they earn. I think that's the point Fred makes. Red bottom line is almost guaranteed. Mercedes will make less than last year, but almost certainly they will not be in red.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Date 2020.04.12   Time 16:15 (UTC) - Assuming there is any racing this year (which I doubt), then:

Err no, sorry. Teams are not in the same boat. Front teams will be rewarded with higher pay after season which offsets to some extend increased operating expenses for cramming the schedule, whereas a small team like Fred is managing will get hit pretty badly, unless this year there are some temp. one-off provisions made to help them. Alfa will spend more for facilitating this insane schedule than they earn. I think that's the point Fred makes. Red bottom line is almost guaranteed. Mercedes will make less than last year, but almost certainly they will not be in red.

Well, most teams will survive missing a season, and so will Liberty, but it is going to hurt all their bottom lines. All the teams rely on advertising and sponsorship. They all rely on the series being healthy to continue bringing in money.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do agree that they all will take some hit, and whilst I would expect big teams to survive a punch or two, I am not so sure about rest of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Sakae said:

I do agree that they all will take some hit, and whilst I would expect big teams to survive a punch or two, I am not so sure about rest of them.

Well, there are different levels of survival. Red Bull and Ferrari can simply miss a season. Their pockets are deep and they exist to race. On the other hand, Mercedes and Renault report to corporate boards. If they run a year with a heavy loss and no marketing value and the F1 is not economically recovered from that year, then what stops some people on the board to trying to end their involvement. This has happened before. There is a reason why Mercedes and Renault are willing to accept reducing the budget cap, while Red Bull and Ferrari are not. In the end, they have to prove to their boards that it is worthwhile. Hard to prove that if you are not running races.

Now, for different reasons McLaren, Racing Point/Aston Martin and Toro Rosso are probably able to survive a year. But, I really don't know the financial shape of McLaren. The fact Zak Brown is speaking out about Red Bull and Ferrari not reducing the budget cap strongly indicates to me that there are some big issues here.

Then there is Williams, Haas and Alfa. Williams is marginal, Alfa may be marginal (it was a couple of years ago) and Haas is an attempt to run a formula one team for cheap (which almost works). The danger is that even if these teams survive for another year, they may be down financially as a result. Once you get down financially, it is extremely hard to recover (as anyone who has run a business in trouble is well aware of). Added to that, there are no new teams currently lining up ready to join.

So.....the real danger is that a failure to get a real season going will not only be a significant financial hit this year, but will hurt attendance and interest next year (which has been an issue for several years now) and may cripple or knock-out another team or three. Once F1 goes into decline, with shrinking teams, shrinking audiences, shrinking attendance, less sponsorship......then what stops this decline for continuing for year after year?

We have seen one major racing series (Indy) effectively gutted, from an era when Foyt, Unser and Andretti were households names and 60+ cars would show up at Indianapolis...to the poor spec series that it is now. It survives, but it really is not the same. Is this the future of F1?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ruslan Surprising response and well received. You have outdone yourself this time, fellow, considering that we get mostly the usual monosyllabic feedback.

Quote

We have seen one major racing series (Indy) effectively gutted, from an era when Foyt, Unser and Andretti were households names and 60+ cars would show up at Indianapolis...to the poor spec series that it is now. It survives, but it really is not the same. Is this the future of F1?

That's precisely my fear. Gutting series DNA - exceptionalism - seems to be no problem for people with misguided aims.

Quote

So.....the real danger is that a failure to get a real season going will not only be a significant financial hit this year, but will hurt attendance...

You have a point, especially about McLaren. It happened in the past, some people left, and never to return, especially if they were sitting on the fence for some time before it all took off. One can only scratch head in what shape teams come out from this, and not only to come alive, but prosper, and be interesting to their followers. F1 is suppose to be entertainment, and no one wants to see a team struggling before your own eyes to finish races, and finish it competitively. 

I repeat, equal budget alone will not solve F1 issues at any level. Mr. Brown is simply mistaken in his declarations (we need budget so cars can overtake). Overtaking to be realized requires a technical solution, not financial, but how you achieve exceptionalism which made F1 famous with turning series into charity, how you make cars competitive when there is one restriction after another in technical sector.

Tier 2 separate budget is being at least considered, says Mr. Todt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know have seen a lot of series go boom and bust. Indy Car was huge in the United States until the mid-1970s. It was then dying off and the team owners got together and saved it. It boomed again under CART and then was killed by Tony George splitting the series (and heartedly supported by Max and Bernie). Then there was Can-Am (first version), Trans-AM (first version) and IMSA Camel GT. NASCAR had a really boom period in the last couple of decades, now it is in decline (although far from bust).

F1 really hasn't had a boom-and-bust cycle, but one cannot rule out that this can happen. In a bust, the DNA of F1 will disappear. With the 1950s and 1960s Indy Cars and in CART in the 1980s, there were lots of different car and engine manufacturers. There were even tire wars. Now....spec cars. We have seen in the U.S. how racing series die. F1 needs to avoid to short-term downturn, need to widen the competitive teams, and needs to attract a younger audience. You can only go so far with 70-year olds with Rolexes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ruslan said:

You know have seen a lot of series go boom and bust. Indy Car was huge in the United States until the mid-1970s. It was then dying off and the team owners got together and saved it. It boomed again under CART and then was killed by Tony George splitting the series (and heartedly supported by Max and Bernie). Then there was Can-Am (first version), Trans-AM (first version) and IMSA Camel GT. NASCAR had a really boom period in the last couple of decades, now it is in decline (although far from bust).

F1 really hasn't had a boom-and-bust cycle, but one cannot rule out that this can happen. In a bust, the DNA of F1 will disappear. With the 1950s and 1960s Indy Cars and in CART in the 1980s, there were lots of different car and engine manufacturers. There were even tire wars. Now....spec cars. We have seen in the U.S. how racing series die. F1 needs to avoid to short-term downturn, need to widen the competitive teams, and needs to attract a younger audience. You can only go so far with 70-year olds with Rolexes. 

Date 2020.04.13   Time 15:26 (UTC)

Ruslan, it's a pleasure to go down memory lane as you tell the story. I used to actually live for long time in NA (not far, relatively speaking, from your neck of woods), and I recall my video recorder working in overdrive to ensure I can watch F1 and CART. names like Andrettis, Unsers, Zanardi, Fittipaldi and many others were all part of my racing diet. I love them all. I was there when Greg Moore perished. It was horrific and brought me back to reality how danger this sport is. I think I mentioned on some bulletin board long time ago I was on business in the city, and as it happen, I was able to see inaugural Brickyard 400 (NASCAR). I really wanted to like that series, I wanted to join conversation on the plane full of NASCAR fans bustling with energy, noise (and probably some whiskey), but chemistry just wasn't there. 30 leads and 1000 overtakes in one race tired me, and I lost interest. The same with IRL once CART disappeared. (Unpredictable 3 to 5 lead changes in F1 is fine with me.)

What I fear today, that F1 is taking the same senseless direction as no lessons from American history were learnt. F1 is last sport I have retained any interest still today, but let's hope people will come to their senses and do more than just counting coins.  

Regarding new generation. Does racing means to them the same as it has to us (older generation)? I am suspicious that some new guys find more pleasure to speak and write defamation pieces, than talking about racing techniques, and business.

Do you remember the add with old (insurance?) guy saying - I know a thing or two, because i have seen a thing or two. Fits in here nicely. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Date 2020.04.16   Time 7:11 (UTC) - INSIDER'S PERSPECTIVE

Andreas Seidl 

Andreas is a German Engineer, who gave one of the illuminating interviews I've read in a while. I like this man for his skills in engineering, management and business, but here, as a manager in F1, he answered questions posed to him at length, without actually saying anything (new). He has no answers. No one has definite answers.

For me this is reflection on status of this sport  - uncertainty. 

This one could be more than just idle talk:

Quote

8. Do you fear teams will disappear or quit during this crisis? It's not just a fear, it's reality, a big risk that we could lose teams because of this crisis. We don't know what the impact will be, when we will get back to racing again.

Asking question whether this is then an existential question for the sport could be rephrased as the end of the road for F1?

I am perplexed how anyone can engage in this expensive, existentially non-essential entertainment full of risk, yet trying to live without financial reserves from a paycheck to paycheck. This is not just sudden Corona issue, F1 is talking about finances for ages, so there shouldn't be any surprises, yet no one is leaving... 

Borrowing money to survive another a few months without work is strategy really hard to understand. Vultures live everywhere, not just in African savannah;  they wait patiently when crisis culminates, then assets will be purchased and re-sold profitably by a buyer, while liabilities will remain with the ex-team. Really...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13/04/2020 at 4:32 PM, Sakae said:

Do you remember the add with old (insurance?) guy saying - I know a thing or two, because i have seen a thing or two. Fits in here nicely.

A TV add, now U R showin UR age Sakae.  
U R rememberin a time, a time when we ACTUALLY went F1 racin.  That time were B4 injury lawyers 4 U ...
The ONLY reason NOT currently racin IS because of, injury lawyers 4 U.
Where there IS a blame, there IS a claim.

How Ironic would it B if, Corona (Beer) entered and sponsored F1 ?

Quick question;
Tobacco advertising IS banned.
Is beer banned currently?  I know Jack Daniels WERE recently involved in sponsorship though everythin now has.
Moved towards sugary pop drinks - branded as "Energy drinks".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm yes, I do belong to age when Prost, Senna, and greenhorn Schumacher in Benetton were three kings of the road. Anything that followed was just one disappointment after another. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2020 at 11:32 AM, Sakae said:

Regarding new generation. Does racing means to them the same as it has to us (older generation)? I am suspicious that some new guys find more pleasure to speak and write defamation pieces, than talking about racing techniques, and business.

Well, I have a 17-year old who just finished High School. What I don't see (that I often saw when I went to high school):

1. Kids following racing (my son doesn't)

2. Kids working on their cars.

3. Kids modifying their cars.

4. Kids at high school with modified cars (there are only a couple, my son being one).

5. Kids hanging out together to horse around with, race or drag-race with their cars.

I don't see the car culture here that existed when I was in high school, and what elements I do see seem to be primarily with the Latino kids. You wander into the Latino neighborhoods in this area and you see lots of modified cars, but otherwise, they are now kind of rare. That was not my experience growing up.

I think the "car culture" in the U.S. is dying. This is the primary underlying reason why racing has been dying in the United States since the early 1970s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Ruslan said:

Well, I have a 17-year old who just finished High School. What I don't see (that I often saw when I went to high school):

1. Kids following racing (my son doesn't)

2. Kids working on their cars.

3. Kids modifying their cars.

4. Kids at high school with modified cars (there are only a couple, my son being one).

5. Kids hanging out together to horse around with, race or drag-race with their cars.

I don't see the car culture here that existed when I was in high school, and what elements I do see seem to be primarily with the Latino kids. You wander into the Latino neighborhoods in this area and you see lots of modified cars, but otherwise, they are now kind of rare. That was not my experience growing up.

I think the "car culture" in the U.S. is dying. This is the primary underlying reason why racing has been dying in the United States since the early 1970s.

Thank you for making so well my points for me. When I grew up (in EU), America was for me a land where people love, and live for their cars. Things like ice box, TV, car, etc. is taken today as nothing special, just part of normal life. It is normality without any further appreciation.

How many people dream about saving and buy a TV? No one. I agree with you, It's over with "car culture" as well. People today will pray to new God, hurry up and stand in line to purchase latest iPhone or Samsung, but who has time to talk about boring subject like a car? Very few can toss and replace a car every 16 months, but they buy and toss almost new phones as soon as new model lands in stores.

Toss digital toys culture replaced cabriolet car culture. F1 doesn't fit here.

I have maintained for many years, if you kill F1 exceptionalism by making it bland and easy, you will kill the sport. Making it from standard parts, making all cars look similar, trying to please everybody...well, as the cliche goes, sometimes less is more. This is sport for knowledgeable, narrow base clientele, who can appreciate craft and a team in unique envelope and in contrast to rivals. What's happening right now to this sport makes me feel like I am on the train for slow, long good bye voyage. The second group of clients are of sporadic interest, occasional diversion and unreliable as far as loyalty goes.

The analysis what F1 was, is, and can be is in my humble opinion totally off mark. This new generation, your son generation, is not the one which watched races in eighties or nineties, have no clue, and totally disinterested in my blabbing about Prost and Schumacher. After a race, when they are passing me in high speed, their interest in F1 is - did your favorite won, and without missing a beat, they are out of the door without waiting for my answer.  If anyone is yearning to turn clock back, with old rules and objectives, then good luck with that.

People who do like F1 still exists. FiA and Liberty need to find the way how to keep them, and in very careful manner cultivate such base for future generations. Where to start? Fire a lot of people, including PR office. Stop making F1 "British" series, with slant on all is British, and make it either truly international, or at least European series on traditional race tracks as it used to be. Dance carefully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder how much Red Bull - the fizzy drink HAD 2 pay 2 get the 2020 season started?
The WORLD`s eyes WILL B on the fizzy drink NOW - well the F1 world at least.
Good marketin though 4 the bran

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Date 2020.04.17   Time 11:20 (UTC)

in re: MERCEDES

Mercedes might have overstayed their welcome in F1 as far as fans are concerned. I know, funny to say that, especially when just recently Ola Källenius declared F1 good marketing platform for the automaker, Maybe it was true initially, but is it true today? I for one think that Ola said what was expected of him, contrary to what internal research might have concluded in ROI analysis. 

We have seen this before with Renault. After a while, every their engine win produced yawn - so, what else is new, whereas when something went wrong, F1 media were celebrating. It was all wrong, and Renault left series.

I do suspect that we are possibly seeing something similar once again, this time with Stuttgart.

It merely proves, that too much of good stuff is no good for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Sakae said:

People who do like F1 still exists. FiA and Liberty need to find the way how to keep them, and in very careful manner cultivate such base for future generations. Where to start? Fire a lot of people, including PR office. Stop making F1 "British" series, with slant on all is British, and make it either truly international, or at least European series on traditional race tracks as it used to be. Dance carefully.

Well, it is actually not very British now. Number of teams owned by the Brits: Maybe one (if Williams has not be taken over by Michael Latifi for all practical purposes). Number of team principals that are British: 1 (Christian Horner, the spice man), number of drivers that are British: 3

Ownership:

Austrian: 2

German: 1

Italian: 2 (or Italian/Swiss)

American: 1

Bahrain?: 1

Canadian: 1 or 2?

French: 1

English: 1 or 0?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Liberty offices are in London, and key people influencing FiA and F1 direction are all Brits and from US, despite most money pumped into F1 do come in big chunks from Germany, Italy, Austria, France, Thailand and then oil money ME. At team's meetings most people doing talking are Brits. In Paris, FiA offices, F1 sporting category is disproportionally dominated by Brits.

I would like to see F1 really handed over - at least for a few years - to managers possessing understanding what F1 was, and could be in the future. To that aim, names of leaders like Frédéric Vasseur, Andreas Seidl, and yes, maybe even Torger Wolff (not however totally sure about his abilities as a leader), and a few others come to mind as people who could revive the sport. I am not sure about Ferrari anymore either. Top man is an American, and he is not Enzo, so much we know by now. The way he runs F1 side of business is not something I am impressed with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...