Clicky

Jump to content
Sakae

Ferrari 2021

Recommended Posts

27 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Source?

Its been 6 YEARS now Sakae! 6 YEARS!!!! Are you telling me the competition is so incompetent they can't catch up... Or are Merc just merrily tweaking regulatory specs with FIA as it suits both parties. We're talking about the pinnacle of Motorsports!

I think it's not just the engine, Merc is doing a brilliant job in all areas of their car development. It pains me to say this...

Source: I would have to look at it, and search for BE comments. This is however something he really stated. You have access to CTA. Search for Publius's post. Someone challenged him on the same question and he posted link. FiA was in consultation with MB before 2014. (I am not aware of anything similar after 2013).

Engine - it is complex technical system, which requires a lot of engineering empirical work and testing of assumptions, which has been curtailed in recent years (cost cutting). What was however allowed is simply not enough. Don't forget MB is not standstill all those years, and as others walk slowly one step forward, and two backwards, MB is just improving what was initially a very good job. These days there are even restrictions how many hours teams are allowed on the design-hours, wind tunnel, etc. (Re: conversation with Tost). Unbelievable? Maybe, but that's how it is today. No mistakes, otherwise you are finish for months, if not a season.

Ripple effect - I am not defending teams from errors on the vehicle. What Ferrari for example has done with their car has nothing to do with MB. That's home grown pain, and that's more or less the same for them all. The thing is, while teams are channeling money on recovery from errors on PU design, MB doesn't has to do it, and can spend similar chunks of money on new vehicle research, to get ahead even further.

Maybe this is why they all will be building a new car in 2022 and start all over, because this current racket has no satisfactory solution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GP247

Quote

“I want to be constructive and non-destructive,” di Montezemolo said.

“In 2014 I was wrong to accept the transition to hybrid engines. We underestimated the fact that Mercedes had been studying them for two years and above all that the German industry had a culture on the subject that was still unknown in Italy. 

https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/07/22/montezemolo-ferraris-problem-is-its-organisation/

Wiki: The FIA announced the intention to change the 2.4 litre V8 engines to 1.6 litre V6 turbo engines for the 2014 season. 

I think Luca gots date wrong. He had to agree with acceptance of hybrids around 2011/2012. It takes a while to get them on the grid in 2014. This also would make claim plausible that MB was conducting research of hybrids already about 2010. (2 years ahead of Italians.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

6 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Q, Are you Cav on grandPrix247

No, But now I would like to know who this Cav from gp247 is

4 hours ago, Sakae said:

I am perplexed. You guys don't see anything wrong with it????? 

I see everything wrong about it ...

I feel there is probably a need for a lobby of other F1 teams, and Fans to call out Merc and FIA for conniving the who sport for all these years. Maybe this is my whimsical outburst against the injustice, but it sure does beg a question.

Year after year that Merc and Hamilton have kept ahead in the championship, it was because they took a certain position about the PU (all the while keeping in mind how they would be handling things), and then technically and emotionally forced other to sign on certain regulations, which they knew would later work against all these teams.. and now they would legally force others to obey by these rules that everyone signed on.

This was a deceit in its purest form... a Deceit against to the whole Racing + F1 community, the drivers, the media, the Gentlemen's agreement, the Law the fans overall, the sport itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, blackpebel said:

 

No, But now I would like to know who this Cav from gp247 is

I see everything wrong about it ...

I feel there is probably a need for a lobby of other F1 teams, and Fans to call out Merc and FIA for conniving the who sport for all these years. Maybe this is my whimsical outburst against the injustice, but it sure does beg a question.

Year after year that Merc and Hamilton have kept ahead in the championship, it was because they took a certain position about the PU (all the while keeping in mind how they would be handling things), and then technically and emotionally forced other to sign on certain regulations, which they knew would later work against all these teams.. and now they would legally force others to obey by these rules that everyone signed on.

This was a deceit in its purest form... a Deceit against to the whole Racing + F1 community, the drivers, the media, the Gentlemen's agreement, the Law the fans overall, the sport itself.

I disagree with the last bit, but each to his own then

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also think that MB didn't deceive anyone or cheated anyone. They did most likely what they legally were permitted to do. Better question is, who let them, and why other teams didn't scream "murder" to stop it? Really puzzling, and I think it will be one of those things that certain person of advance age will take with him when he leaves us.

My own explanation is, some people, like LdM, clever as he is, probably underestimated complexity of the hybrid project, and got burnt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Sakae said:

My own explanation is, some people, like LdM, clever as he is, probably underestimated complexity of the hybrid project, and got burnt.

 

10 hours ago, blackpebel said:

and then technically and emotionally forced other to sign on certain regulations, which they knew would later work against all these teams.. and now they would legally force others to obey by these rules that everyone signed on.

Ferrari, just like Renault and Honda, got tricked into accepting the new Regs under false pretexts.

Luca admitted that Merc were pushing them (and others) to accept the new reg's. And No @brad, it was Not Renault, it was Never Renault, I'm not even sure where you got that info from, I was surprised when you claimed it somewhere else recently on this Forum, but passed on rebutting it back then.

This 'Signing of Reg's' was based on the knowledge that Merc already had about Turbo Splitting, they just din want others to know it, but they definitely wanted others to sign the dotted line which ensured others were left, and Kept behind in the new Era. They made Ferrari and others feel that they would be left behind in their approach towards the future of F1, while having their own selfish, brand conscious interest in mind, Today, it has completely screwed the sport, which is considered as the Pinnacle of Motorsports. Its a Farce.

Now, if it comes to it, Merc will throw FIA under the bus stating that 'they seeked clarification' , which, in all honestly, they didn't, coz FIA would have clarified both the Do's AND the Dont's with the ALL teams.... Which FIA didn't,,, coz FIA only clarified the Dont's, that Merc wanted everyone's Sign on, NOT the Do's.

Was FIA conspiring along with Merc, I Don't know, And I don't think so, which leads me to think that even FIA got tricked in claiming to the other teams, that their job of safekeeping Racing, was being done in its entirety, which it was NOT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, blackpebel said:

This 'Signing of Reg's' was based on the knowledge that Merc already had about Turbo Splitting, they just din want others to know it, but they definitely wanted others to sign the dotted line which ensured others were left, and Kept behind in the new Era.

Date 2020.07.23   Time 6:03 (UTC)

Would you elaborate, please? This is based on what evidence? 

I am aware that Renault, Ferrari, Mercedes and FiA held series of engineering meetings sometimes before 2014 with text of specs on the agenda. It has been said, true or false, that Mercedes helped FiA to write some specs apart from the others, however how sinister that was is anyone's guess. Unsettling for me personally were statements by BE, confirmed now by LdM, that MB had in their research 2 years lead over everyone else, therefore it is implied, that when season in 2014 came along, MB had better understanding than everyone else of their system, and it served them well compared to rivals. Unfortunately the others produced less efficient PU, and haven't fully recovered yet, as MB is also improving, and keeping performance gap alive and well.

That was not a start of the era from the same baseline, so how much are worth all those trophies, especially when they all are permitted these days to work on their products only in small chunks, and inadequate to make a difference on the scoreboard. Situation is also blurred because additional mistakes were made in body and the floor designs. RBR has done good job, some others did not, and that's where we are. 

All of the above has been now repeated n-th times before, and I would assume we all are familiar with this part of history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Would you elaborate, please? This is based on what evidence? 

Why Sure...

Based on 2 Simple facts that I am making this deduction out of...

1) Mercedes were already aware of - a) The Split Turbo Design b) The frame of upcoming regulation they wanted others to sign on.

They just had to ensure that everyone's interpretation of a Turbo, during conversations and discussions, Was that of a Combined Turbo. Here, they knew exactly what Clause other engine Manufacturers would miss out on .... the one that doesn't talk ANYTHING about the Middle rod within the Split Turbo that is , so in conversations they would only discuss ANYTHING as if they were talking about a Conventional Turbo...

Here, I'll give you a VERY simple pictorial explanation of what I said, and I'm hoping we all are on the same page about HOW a regular turbo works, so wont get into those details:

Conventional: Turbo          Split: Tur-----------Bo

the Tur in BOTH the above is HOT, and the Bo in BOTH the above is Not.

keeping tur close to the bo, hugely complicates the cooling dynamics. Keeping the BO Cool, is the 1 sole distinguishing Factor that Makes up the thing that we now call a POWER-UNIT > to the engine performance+battery output (eventually higher straight-line speed)> to the gearbox > to the suspensions > to the aerodynamics > to the breaking+handling.

2) When Ferrari, Renault and Finally Honda came to the Field, they ALL had a conventional Turbo incorporated in there PU, because everyone one was on the notion that this is what was agreed on. Ferrari as I remember had the biggest issue, because their Turbo was actually an internal part of engine, and this is Still the biggest Achilles heel.

NOW ......

So each component within a PU that Merc designs is lenient on cooling issues, because the BO is kept away from anything that would cause cooling concerns. Whereas each component that Ferrari and Renault designs HAS to keep cooling in mind becuase BO is right in the center of it all. PLUS they don't have tokens to solve these cooling issues. This is why I made a Topic to separately discuss if Ferrari and Renault should be given some leniency...

Oh Yes, now I remember, this is where @BradSpeedMan claimed Renault was pushing for the Engine Regs's 

Honda was Smart to realize this, and McLaren, without Ron's guidance, failed to see the benefits. 

No wonder why they wanted everyone to sign before anyone realized this!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Date 2020.07.23   Time 6:45 (UTC)

Clever, but I am not yet convinced about the "sinister" aspect you described earlier. Intelligent cluster of engineers working together for two years (in advance) probably produced load of information on feasibility of the technology, and presentation of key points should had been (IMO) shown to rivals as part of "convincing" leverage for getting the all binding agreement signed, which allowed hybrid era to take off. Beyond that point I would expect everyone to work on his own. Maybe it was that way, or very close to it, maybe not. I don't know in reality who knew what when LdM gave his nod to go ahead and spend money.

There was one more issue which generated a lot of headlines later on. Cost. BE claimed he didn't know how expensive PUs will be. I have difficulty to believe that, had he asked right people. Engineers do not launch projects of this magnitude without estimates. Those could have been off (20 - 30%), but they had some figures for their internal financial planning, and those could had been updated periodically. That's how real world works. It is mystery to me, that entities like Williams had no idea what it will cost them, as it was claimed some time ago. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sakae said:

Date 2020.07.23   Time 6:45 (UTC)

Clever, but I am not yet convinced about the "sinister" aspect you described earlier. Intelligent cluster of engineers working together for two years (in advance) probably produced load of information on feasibility of the technology, and presentation of key points should had been (IMO) shown to rivals as part of "convincing" leverage for getting the all binding agreement signed, which allowed hybrid era to take off. Beyond that point I would expect everyone to work on his own. Maybe it was that way, or very close to it, maybe not. I don't know in reality who knew what when LdM gave his nod to go ahead and spend money.

OK let me try to explain.. 

I hope everyone here has played Monopoly... 

4 of us, you me Brad and let's say KoolMonkey, like playing monopoly with each other, but our practice of having a physical board is redundant.. Now we plan to make a new hybrid monopoly which can be played over smartphones and is more future proof.. The caveat is that the money and the cards will be distributed BEFORE the new game comes into existence and the distribution will remain the same and CAN'T be changed once the game starts. All the distribution is equal, and everyone gets 4 get out of jail free cards.. 

Brad is adamant on every one finalizing the deal and coaxes us to consider putting money in the app before we waist more time, coz playing the game is important...

We all get in touch with the app developer (FIA) to help make the app we need.

Brad has a small trick up his sleeve  In the new digital monopoly, he is able to split his get out of the jail free card into 2, and use Each of these splits as one whole.. So now, effectively brad has 8 getoutofjailfree cards. But he does not want others to know this, and keeps talking to everyone as if he has 4 cards AND that this small glitch can be used only BEFORE the distribution. Brad You devil you...

Its only once the game starts that brad reveals that although he has 4 cards he has split it into 2 halves, and the rule book never said anything about splitting cards being an issue when discussing with the app developer...

KoolMonkey says he is ready to give up some of his money to split his getoutofjailfree card.. He is loosing extra money while doing this. For splitting his card NOW, cool monkey has to stay in the jail for 1 round for splitting each card, that's him giving up on 4 rounds for 4 cards(mclaren honda years) AND additionally give money.. 

We both get stuck each time we go around coz we are short of the said card.. 

Have I made some sense @Sakae

Edited by blackpebel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As long as I'm the car or top hat @blackpebel haha

I too think Merc was disingenuous when it came to the creation of the new engine regulations. I don't begrudge them having an ace up their sleeve, but they should not have been involved to create the regs in the first place. None of the teams should have. They are not genuine are beyond sneaky. This I do not like.

I insist and maintain that Merc have a whole lot more performance in their engine and car. Since no other team is close, they can turn it down and go into auto pilot mode. If they were winning each race by lapping everyone, then it would bring too much attention to how lop sided F1 really is.

I HATE that other teams cannot test, try new things and improve. Cost cutting isn't saving $$, it just means teams are now spending millions on tiny little things that they haven't been locked out of changing.

F1 needs to burn down and then be rebuilt. Liberty need to gone. Bernie, bless his soul, is past it. Can Brawn run it? Not sure. I think at the moment he's handicapped and on a short leash.

I just know I do not get excited watching the races anymore. They are boring, procedural and predictable. We ALL know Merc are going to win. The only thing is how much Bottas will struggle.

I wish at this point that I wasn't so much of a fan of F1. It might be easier to turn my back and walk away. F1 as we know it, as we love it, and remember it long gone. RIP F1.

Edited by KoolMonkey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It should be considered an engineering marvel. Merc has mastered the split turbo to perfection. They have found a great way to be innovative while sticking to the rules EVERYONE had agreed on. They found a solution, and made it work. They were INNOVATIVE. We are just witnessing the results...

 

Unfortunately, as we all agree... the token system does"nt assist teams with drawing a level playing field. Thats the problem with the new regs.... Anything else is just this... A conspiracy theory. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Date 2020.07.23   Time 14:21 (UTC)

Quote

‘The Ferrari team-mates fighting is senseless'

Former Mercedes boss Norbert Haug feels Mattia Binotto needs to assert Ferrari's will over its drivers after Charles Leclerc held Sebastian Vettel up in Hungary. In what was a disappointing weekend at the Hungaroring for the Scuderia, Vettel brought his car home in sixth place while his team-mate was 11th. Both drivers were lapped by race winner and championship leader Lewis Hamilton. And while P5 was probably the best Vettel could have tried for, his efforts were hampered a bit during the grand prix when Leclerc held him up. Although it was clear that Vettel had the better pace, Ferrari didn't order the Monégasque driver to yield with Vettel eventually taking matters into his own hands... 

Binotto of course will not do any such thing for Vettel. Long pit stops for anyone?

It's time for Seb to kick them to the curb.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

It should be considered an engineering marvel. Merc has mastered the split turbo to perfection. They have found a great way to be innovative while sticking to the rules EVERYONE had agreed on. They found a solution, and made it work. They were INNOVATIVE. We are just witnessing the results...

 

So you are Ok with the fact that Vettle probably was fighting in an Unequal machinery all this while, and that the inequality of his machinery was probably a part of a sleazy conspiracy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, blackpebel said:

 

So you are Ok with the fact that Vettle probably was fighting in an Unequal machinery all this while, and that the inequality of his machinery was probably a part of a sleazy conspiracy?

Correction... Your sleazy conspiracy. Hey..why single Vettel out, certainly all non-Merc drivers did'nt stand a chance. The might of that Merc beast is extra-ordinary.. and as proven... aint no conspiracy theory at all... Its fact.

 

You shud watch that movie Conspiracy Theory.. Mel Gibson. You will love. But as they say... only happens in the movies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sakae said:

Date 2020.07.23   Time 14:21 (UTC)

Binotto of course will not do any such thing for Vettel. Long pit stops for anyone?

It's time for Seb to kick them to the curb.

With a brilliant overtake nogal...Thought Vettel cud'nt combat wheel to wheel, as the naysayers suggest...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Hey..why single Vettel out,

Coz that was My Question to You. You, who is probably a Vettle Fan, and would want to see his Fav driver use his skills to get through the 2nd or the 3rd guy on the podium to win a race.. That was my question to you about how you would feel on realizing that probably Vettle was part of a deal that was not Fair...

38 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

certainly all non-Merc drivers did'nt stand a chance.

Thank you!

Part of a deal that is Not fair to 90% of the drivers on the field mate.. All im saying is Its not a coincidence.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Honestly, I tried to defend my take on the core Issue faced by F1 for the last half a Decade, and I know it comes through a lot of years of keeping a tight eye on F1 happening-abouts, and I know I brought some info to this forum, that this forum may not have discussed in such detail before.

The original question was, is someone like Binotto insufficient, He's just another pawn in the game.

You think it is just a coincidence, I guess you feel Mercedes simply outsmarted others with their PU development and played fair, you are entitled to your outlook. I would say you have a rosy picture of the politics behind the scene, In which case I would not blame you, a fan, to have faith in the system, and I wouldn't push you any more on believing otherwise.

 

Having said that ...........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still take offense on you saying something like...

On 7/22/2020 at 1:52 PM, BradSpeedMan said:

Don't be fooled by his... nice person Vettel outside the car... it's clear the guy has ulterior motives..

 

And I would like to claim that you owe me a beer for saying that... 😎 🍺🍻

 

1 hour ago, BradSpeedMan said:

You shud watch that movie Conspiracy Theory.. Mel Gibson. You will love. But as they say... only happens in the movies

Alright then... on it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/23/2020 at 1:23 PM, KoolMonkey said:

I too think Merc was disingenuous when it came to the creation of the new engine regulations. I don't begrudge them having an ace up their sleeve, but they should not have been involved to create the regs in the first place. None of the teams should have. They are not genuine are beyond sneaky. This I do not like.

It was up to FiA, a regulator, negated advantage MB gained due to its substantial lead time over rivals on the hybrid research with intended application to racing in the F1. In theory and in the name of fairness, when teams received nod to go ahead, they all should had been on the same baseline on challenges in the field of thermodynamics they were about to undertake.

Based on performance disparities demonstrated already early in 2014, I have my doubts that the issue to launch was handled as well as it should or could had been. MB got away. We can only guess why and how. Maybe wrong questions were asked by regulators, maybe rivals were too relaxed in due diligence process, maybe it was just too complex for them to correctly assess risk they are facing. I joke often about conspiracy in favor of Hamilton, but on more serious note, I don't think that's what happened. As LdM said recently, given a chance to do this again, I would not agree to sign for it. (Implied insufficient knowledge in crucial moment of negotiations.) Now we will have a new baseline in 2022, is it? That is only way to put this mess behind us.

I am not advocating for MB to release intellectual properties, however there are different methods available how to level field without stepping on MB's foot. Point is, you need sufficient knowledge about the subject matter, and will to do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Date 2020.07.28   Time 7:25 (UTC)

GP247: Elkann

Quote

Unfortunately for the tifosi, Elkann admits there is little that can be done in the short-term given this year’s car will carry-over to 2021, with heavy restrictions placed on its development due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

In other words - we hope to be visible in March 2022. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never have I seen Ferrari throw in the towel like that. That's the sort of move Renault/Williams and other strugglers make when they abandon a car during a season and say they are focusing on the next.

So what happens when 2022 rolls around and the Ferrari is still a turtle? Probably more passing the buck statements like their wind tunnel need calibration or a rebuilding year yada yada yada.

I'm glad Vettel is leaving. I'm glad Kimi has left. It would be horrid to see them suffer in such a political disasterclass of a team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, KoolMonkey said:

Never have I seen Ferrari throw in the towel like that. That's the sort of move Renault/Williams and other strugglers make when they abandon a car during a season and say they are focusing on the next.

So what happens when 2022 rolls around and the Ferrari is still a turtle? Probably more passing the buck statements like their wind tunnel need calibration or a rebuilding year yada yada yada.

I'm glad Vettel is leaving. I'm glad Kimi has left. It would be horrid to see them suffer in such a political disasterclass of a team.

I think Mattia just wants to make me feel better that Sebastian is leaving. OK, mission accomplished. I feel better now.

(Anyone feels the same that Liberty, Brawn, and FiA are all ripe to receive a pink slip?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel better he's leaving too, so job accomplished. I still hope Vettel who is now more relaxed and knows he's going to be free of the pasta politics, can just focus and drive and ultimately beat Leclerc this year. That's basically all I got to look forward to, as Hamilton lapping everyone whilst barely even trying is torture. I love my F1, but at present it's pathetic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Date 2020.08.05   Time 12:26 (UTC)

Quote

Leclerc feels a ‘responsibility’ to pull Ferrari up

Is this (almost exactly) the same how Vettel felt in 2015 and before Sergio told him to mind his own business? Anyhoo, good luck to him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...