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Sakae

Red Bull Racing (2021)

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5 hours ago, Sakae said:

Honda will leave Formula 1 at the end of next year and that is a hard laugh for Red Bull and Max Verstappen. The Austrian team has to rush to find a new supplier for which no option is ideal, advisor Helmut Marko also knows. Reducing costs It came as a shock last week even though at Red Bull they might have known a little longer about Honda's imminent departure. Marko talks to Auto, Motor und Sport about the departure of the Japanese. The departure that was certainly also related to money. Honda could no longer justify the high costs internally.

 

Yes, from what I'm reading and my understanding, it is related to money Sakae

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5 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Yes, from what I'm reading and my understanding, it is related to money Sakae

Well there is of course rather obvious link (as mentioned in previous posts) between collapse of global markets, and drying streams of income. I cannot say it is main factor in that decision, but certainly is one of those. At home they can regulate intensity of their research into hybrids without having McLaren or RBR standing behind them with daily demands.  

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Date 2020.10.08   Time 17:57 (UTC)

Am I the only one confuse by headlines in reference to RBR? Some running parallel on the same page, or are a day apart.

  • Verstappen has an engine clause and could exit end of this year.
  • Verstappen has no engine clause in his contract.
  • RBR is thinking quitting and of this year because of problems with the engine contract.

Etc.

This confuses heck out of me. If RBR is letting out negotiating in public balloons, I thought there is better way. I kind of prefer quiet negotiations, but RBR accepting terms of CA first only to threaten a month later to quit? Sounds like Brexit negotiations.

Pulling out 4 cars our of competition is not a joke. I don't mind, but Liberty might. I can be happy with 12 or 16 highly competitive cars on the grid. I don't need 35 or whatever the number is some proposing. (Visual on track, and data on home electronic devices keeps me busy, and usually i can keep eyes only on about 5 cars max.)

RBR has a substitute engine available right now. Renault. Auto maker already confirmed they will comply with the agreement in place.

So, what's the problem? 

 

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Date 2020.10.09   Time 13:34 (UTC)

F1 website

Quote

Mercedes Team Principal Toto Wolff has ruled out the chance of his team supplying rivals Red Bull with power units from 2022 onwards, following Honda’s decision to withdraw from Formula 1 at the end of 2021. And the Austrian went further by indicating he believes Red Bull may well follow their own path, rather than looking to one of F1's remaining engine manufacturers for a deal...

Intriguing. I do not understand it, but intriguing opinion from the inside man.

Here are some points which are not being discussed, yet need to be resolved:

  • Renault engine is available but set aside as not desirable option????
  • Years 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025 RBR needs drive line, but what is it if not one of existing 3 suppliers?
  • Years 2026 onwards are new specs and people (like Mercedes, Renault, and Ferrari) are already working on advance research. What is RBR doing?
  • Honda has equipment in Japan. In UK are merely assembly and salvaging operations. Will RBR personnel work at Honda's plant? I don't think so. Will they bring all into UK? Immensely expensive. RBR has no personnel to take over such operations without Honda actually takes over min. supervisory role. Very risky scenario.
  • Is RBR getting into an engine business after so many years? This sounds really off beat idea.
    • Taking care of ongoing operations.
    • Launching research into post 2025 period.
    • i.e. Building resources, training resources, testing...(maybe on Horner's kitchen table), etc.
  • Will FiA move scheduled change in specs for 2026 forward to 2022 year already? I am not sure MB will like it much, but whatever, even if they do, who will jump in on last minute and save the day?   

This is a real life drama.

 

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4 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

I don't think getting Renault engines are such a bad idea, they are getting highly competitive now... Plus they have Newey...

 

They are trying to move specs from 2026 to 2022 with hope someone new (like VW) bites and will hitch theri fortune with RBR.

If that plan fails, in realistic terms, I think it's Renault for them for at least 4 years. (2022, 23, 24, 25).

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The problem with Renault engines is that RBR push the absolute limit in terms of their packaging and shell. So a Renault engine in a Renault/Alpine might run normal... but in a RBR it might overheat. Then RBR would give Renault some feedback and Renault would just flip the middle finger and say "non".

That's why forced supply is the dumbest damn idea to come into F1 other than maybe these current engine regs.

Merc conveniently supply the crap teams so that they have an excuse to not supply RBR or a direct competitor. It's in Mercs interest to keep supplying Williams for as long as they are a team. Same with Ferrari, but RBR wouldn't take a Ferrari powerplant even if you paid them to do so.

The only real option I see is buying some engines and IP from Honda, and then working with one or a number of different tuners to keep the show going.

VW and Porsche aren't coming to F1 anytime soon. Not unless we got back to V8/10s NA engines with no Kers/Ers/MGU-H/K. Just plain NA engines running on biofuel would be the way forward I feel.

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Date 2020.10.12   Time 6:25 (UTC)

Good stuff, KM. I think RBR from necessity will have to learn live with reality. I don't see Honda engine on the grid until 2026, unless Honda changes their mind (or someone will change it for them). It's too complex, expensive, and thankless job try to "take over".

RBR is threatening (again) they will leave, unless they get their way, but I don't think so. It's not so easy to drop everything and walk away. It is costly, no buyers, etc. For departure you need long range planning, instead throwing momentary fit. 

Renault already once tried to accommodate RBR's packaging, and it has backfired on them. I don't think they will make the same mistake twice. RBR will probably receive interfacing data, and big smile with à plus tard.

VW gave non committal maybe in 2026 if we like specs.

FiA can try to advance 2026 specs to earlier date, but they will need MB to agree. Problem is, both, Liberty and FiA (with RBR and McLaren applauding on sidelines) treated MB in recent CA negotiations like a piece of dirt, and I am not sure that MB in return will be immensely cooperative. This is actually a second CA in which MB got shafted by the commercial rights holder.

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Total agreement needs to be removed from F1. Ferrari's veto also needs to be removed.

Brawn and the FIA should be setting the rules. Teams can then sign up, or f off. That way we will NEVER get a situation whereby Merc can cruise to victory every single year, and no team can do anything about it. It's not through lack of trying or money now. The roadblock isn't skill, talent or know how. It's regulations. Regs have finally killed this sport.

I have a very simple solution. Bin the current engine and go back to the past V8 spec. Run that for 3-4 years. Then bring in a newer engine spec after that. It would be so simple to implement. This saves money by not having to invent a whole new specification yet again... and buys time for the teams to create their new engine down the track.

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It's not that simple, KM.

I do however suggest (again), that FiA should have instituted emergency powers and change rules for 2015. It was obvious to anyone who wasn't sleeping 3 months into 2014, that situations was heading for disaster. Why didn't they? Instead, I read on the internet that nonsense about dynasties, and so on. The other stuff - as above. It's not that simple. I see involvement of the commercial rights holder into specs as obstacle to better racing. They should not replace FiA.  FiA receiving money from sport they are suppose to regulate I think is also wrong IMO. I will close with my believe and it may upset a lot of people, but I think there wouldn't be F1 without investment and involvement by car makers. What people do forget (or don't want to remember), but both, Mercedes and Ferrari are fundamentally racing entities morphing into commuter market. Stronger pedigree than McLaren ever was.

This is however a long discussion and for different time, different thread.

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I thought RB may include Nico on a list of candidates for next year to partner Verstappen, but Dr. Marco said not a chance. Pitty. I would like to have Nico back. 

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My money is on Redbull buying Honda IP. That is the only practical way forward for them to stay relative in the game. Redbull would be able to overcome a lot of hurdles that the engine development has faced under Honda management.

While they are leaving, Honda get some change for the efforts they have put in, and Redbull avoids being a customer team with the 2nd best engine on the field with further development on the cards before a complete development freeze, its a win-win.

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9 hours ago, KoolMonkey said:

and then working with one or a number of different tuners to keep the show going

Mugen seems an appropriate contendor - just sayin

Edited by lipstick79

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On 10/7/2020 at 12:48 PM, BradSpeedMan said:

Yes, from what I'm reading and my understanding, it is related to money Sakae

Isn`t EVERYTHIN in life related 2 money ? !!
Do NOT need 2 B a genius 2 conclude that BradSpeedMan

Women OR money and the 2 often collide.

Edited by lipstick79

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Date 2020.10.12   Time 15:38 (UTC)

Quote

 Honda get some change for the efforts they have put in, 

After investing hundreds and hundreds of MM they will be now tossed aside like a smelly fish for a joy of a drink in a can producer? That's the proposition?

First of all, while in post pandemic economy, money will be issue (for everyone), and F1 is not that good ROI at the moment. New orders are not there. Secondly, Honda is walking away from F1, they aren't however walking away from research into this, and other carbon-less technologies. Why would then anyone think they should give up IP, I am not entirely sure how that would make sense, @blackpebel . 

There is no one around competent enough to take over, and run with it under competitive conditions what Honda can give away, without having Horner in your face every day. There is no know-how, there is no time, and there isn't enough money around to invest in the outgoing, soon semi-obsolete, technology.

Realistically 4 solutions are to be considered IMO:

1. Convince Honda to stay for next 5 years.

2. RBR to quit series because no one wants to work with them. (Word is, the truth, neither is actually Honda).

3. Renault or Ferrari will supply power units.

4. Advance 2026 spec (simple PU) under emergency measures into 2022, and get external support as a new drive line partner. 

5. NA engines - I don't see it. Again, some benefit, yet it leaves Renault, Mercedes, and Ferrari with a lot of expensive and no good materials. So, who benefits of it? There are some other environmental issues, of course.

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Date 2020.10.13   Time 7:17 (UTC)

Dr. Marko:

Quote

"With the provision that the talks with Honda are going well, we would like to take over the basis, the intellectual property and everything else from Honda in order to be able to prepare the engines at Milton Keynes," he's quoted by Motorsport.com.

 

My solution: Honda should tell RB to get off the medication, and stop dreaming.

 

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7 hours ago, Sakae said:

Dr. Marko:

Quote

"With the provision that the talks with Honda are going well, we would like to take over the basis, the intellectual property and everything else from Honda in order to be able to prepare the engines at Milton Keynes," he's quoted by Motorsport.com.

My solution: Honda should tell RB to get off the medication, and stop dreaming.

Redbull Dont need any Medication, Rather, I guess it is Honda that got a rude awakening from the dream they were living... Is why they have chosen to leave,,, Again.

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12 hours ago, blackpebel said:

Redbull Dont need any Medication, Rather, I guess it is Honda that got a rude awakening from the dream they were living... Is why they have chosen to leave,,, Again.

to return again... after 4-7 years

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Date 2020.10.14   Time 12:23 (UTC)

GPBlog

Quote

Abiteboul would have indicated that the discussion might be decided by Luca de Meo, the new Renault CEO, and Dietrich Mateschitz, owner of Red Bull, Motorsport writes. In any case, Renault is the most valid option at the moment, as the manufacturer is also 'obliged' by law to provide Red Bull Racing with power sources. Unless another way is found.

Conversation continues at the top level. It has been revealed, that this two men know each other from former times. To me it still makes most sense for near term and RB has to plan for 2026 early by building beneficial alliances. RB is not an engine company, and I doubt Honda is prepared to move their engine manufacturing to UK for benefit of RB. Talking about impossible dream.

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7 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

to return again... after 4-7 years

Honda wasn't secretive why they returned back to F1. Chief wasn't talking about love of racing in F1, or love of McLaren. It was clear that from his remarks it was potential of research into hybrid technology which drew them in. Again, unstated aim of morphing F1 data in to consumer market. I wonder if anyone actually asked them what they are planning to do once they know all what is there to know about this subject. Well, now we don't have to guess anymore.

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Date 2020.10.16   Time 14:28 (UTC)

Quote

And now, according to Auto Motor und Sport, Red Bull is threatening to withdraw both of its teams from the sport unless an engine freeze is agreed.

I have to admit I am getting tired from the never ending blackmail in F1. 

Under current circumstances engine freeze would leave Ferrari dead last on the grid. It is a bad decision. Period. 

My solution - tell RBR to go. Load the backpack, and go. Call their bluff. Series for all we know will be better without you.Driver market will weed out weak members, more money for those who stay, etc. In 2026 (or sooner) new entrants will be invited. Let development to continue (so Renault and Ferrari can come closer to MB), but limit enough performance parameter which puts MB guys out of work.   

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On 10/14/2020 at 2:39 PM, Sakae said:

Honda wasn't secretive why they returned back to F1. Chief wasn't talking about love of racing in F1, or love of McLaren. It was clear that from his remarks it was potential of research into hybrid technology which drew them in. Again, unstated aim of morphing F1 data in to consumer market. I wonder if anyone actually asked them what they are planning to do once they know all what is there to know about this subject. Well, now we don't have to guess anymore.

Nice insight once again. 

You did raise it few days ago, I was wondering...

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18 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Nice insight once again. 

You did raise it few days ago, I was wondering...

Date 2020.10.17   Time 8:46 (UTC)

In post pandemic economy most of us will be adjusting our life style, discretionary budgets, and cutting out non-essentials. Honda is not different in that approach from Mercedes, or most of successful companies. Seeing how high they come since 2015, I think undoubtedly as much as they would have liked WCC, however they accomplished enough and met their core objectives. Next 5 years there is much to be done by everyone. Honda is a multi-faceted company, and F1 obviously isn't on their "essential todo" list. MB and Ferrari, as said before, at its core, were and remain racing entities, but they organize their business and how they define themselves on world stage differently from many others. Managing business one way or another should not be reason to talk about Honda scurrilously (as I've read on the net). Rather unfortunate, but there is a lot of it in politics these days, so it's our "new normal" (in some countries).   

I should have added, philosophy, aims and approach to F1 entry was revealed in several initial interviews with Honda's top man in the racing group. One just had to listen and parse the objectives in carefully worded statements. People were drooling over RD' masterstroke, and neglected to put two and two together. For me this was not a surprise. What was unexpected was time line, which undoubtedly was affected by pandemic conditions. I thought they would stay couple of years longer, to tell the true, letting RB to dethrone MB. 

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4 hours ago, Sakae said:

Date 2020.10.17   Time 8:46 (UTC)

In post pandemic economy most of us will be adjusting our life style, discretionary budgets, and cutting out non-essentials. Honda is not different in that approach from Mercedes, or most of successful companies. Seeing how high they come since 2015, I think undoubtedly as much as they would have liked WCC, however they accomplished enough and met their core objectives. Next 5 years there is much to be done by everyone. Honda is a multi-faceted company, and F1 obviously isn't on their "essential todo" list. MB and Ferrari, as said before, at its core, were and remain racing entities, but they organize their business and how they define themselves on world stage differently from many others. Managing business one way or another should not be reason to talk about Honda scurrilously (as I've read on the net). Rather unfortunate, but there is a lot of it in politics these days, so it's our "new normal" (in some countries).   

I should have added, philosophy, aims and approach to F1 entry was revealed in several initial interviews with Honda's top man in the racing group. One just had to listen and parse the objectives in carefully worded statements. People were drooling over RD' masterstroke, and neglected to put two and two together. For me this was not a surprise. What was unexpected was time line, which undoubtedly was affected by pandemic conditions. I thought they would stay couple of years longer, to tell the true, letting RB to dethrone MB. 

Yes, We were all waiting for that. Or even Ferrari. Best left unsaid...

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