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Sakae

Red Bull Racing (2021)

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Date 2020.10.23   Time 5:34 (UTC)

grandprix

Say what?

Quote

Red Bull eyes own engine program until 2026

I have to admit I do not understand the headline, idea, quote, and overall proposition. We are being told to believe that RB, having no engine related resources on their own as of this day, will manage hybrid program with all necessary improvements to stay competitive until 2026. When time is ripe, they will drop all investment accumulated in next 5 years like a rotten apple and reverse back to the old goodness and nice team they are today. We are asked to believe further that Honda will give away their ongoing diversified research gained in blood and sweat, so a company in UK can benefit off it for fraction of the cost.

That's really exciting news.

Stepping back from the exciting news, RBR has no legal case to make, that they have no engine and they can leave willy nilly any time they want. It was reported Ferrari and Renault made clear they are ready to deal. Engines are available. RBR just needs to stay on the ground with both feet and needs to respond.  That's all.

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7 hours ago, Sakae said:

Date 2020.10.23   Time 5:34 (UTC)

grandprix

Say what?

I have to admit I do not understand the headline, idea, quote, and overall proposition. We are being told to believe that RB, having no engine related resources on their own as of this day, will manage hybrid program with all necessary improvements to stay competitive until 2026. When time is ripe, they will drop all investment accumulated in next 5 years like a rotten apple and reverse back to the old goodness and nice team they are today. We are asked to believe further that Honda will give away their ongoing diversified research gained in blood and sweat, so a company in UK can benefit off it for fraction of the cost.

That's really exciting news.

Stepping back from the exciting news, RBR has no legal case to make, that they have no engine and they can leave willy nilly any time they want. It was reported Ferrari and Renault made clear they are ready to deal. Engines are available. RBR just needs to stay on the ground with both feet and needs to respond.  That's all.

Ok, so, IP gained from Honda with these hybrid engines to have collaboration with another manufacturer... AM or Cosworth. Maybe even VW or Porsche. With Honda themselves gaining intel technology from a clause, free becoz they have done the HARD WORK. And being laughed at along the way...

Don't really see that happening. 

It just easier acquiring a now stronger hybrid egine from Renault who's really making great strides. And they have probably the best in car/aero designer with Newey. They will be able to win races next year... It's just so logical...

Have they burned bridges or something...?

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1 minute ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Ok, so, IP gained from Honda with these hybrid engines to have collaboration with another manufacturer... AM or Cosworth. Maybe even VW or Porsche. With Honda themselves gaining intel technology from a clause, free becoz they have done the HARD WORK. And being laughed at along the way...

Don't really see that happening. Neither do I, and if a rival company will lay their hands on Honda's IP, then I want to know what kind of arm twisting was involved because it doesn't make any sense to a normal person.

It just easier acquiring a now stronger hybrid egine from Renault who's really making great strides. And they have probably the best in car/aero designer with Newey. They will be able to win races next year... It's just so logical... One would thinks so.

Have they burned bridges or something...? Do you mean RBR with Renault? I would think so, but Ferrari may or may not produce a better unit next year, whereas Renault has a decent motor already so they a the obvious choice, acrimonious past relationship notwithstanding. Renault is bound by other agreements to supply number of engines if needed, so they put brave face on it, smile, and make business.

 

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1 hour ago, Sakae said:

 

Yes, You mentioned b4 about Renault obligation of supplying engines...

So what is RBR's friggin problem!!!! Or is a a mater of dignity/pride vs ignorance. You can't have things YOUR WAY ALL THE TIME!

As Renault has already declared publicaly all is good and well with being their supplier... What other options are there really worth pursuing. Do they really want to go through the painful exercise of building their own engines, albeit with the intel of Honda (That will be a feat in itself). How long will that take???

Max won't be happy...

 

Might be repeating myself, but anyway...

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3 minutes ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Yes, You mentioned b4 about Renault obligation of supplying engines...

So what is RBR's friggin problem!!!! Or is a a mater of dignity/pride vs ignorance. You can't have things YOUR WAY ALL THE TIME!

As Renault has already declared publicaly all is good and well with being their supplier... What other options are there really worth pursuing. Do they really want to go through the painful exercise of building their own engines, albeit with the intel of Honda (That will be a feat in itself). How long will that take???

Max won't be happy...

 

Might be repeating myself, but anyway...

I can think of several reasons why RBR is exploring and exploiting every nook and cranny to their disposal. FiA is unknown in that game, because they may see new entrant engaging in F1 (could be VW?), however at the end, RBR is RBR. Not Ferrari, but RB were always difficult kid on the block. They want to bring 2026 spec forward, but I am not convinced that Ferrari will be on board with that, and they just might use their veto, insisting 2026 plan now in place stays in place unchanged. Renault is now decent, so Horner should stop whining and move on. 

Should Honda agree to that whacky scheme and let them work on their engines, I can see and hear Verstappen screaming murder, because they will not be competitive without Honda's engineers running the show. Wolff already said, that he doesn't want Verstappen at MB, so out boy has nowhere to go. RB is his home, like it or not.

Side show in F1 seems more lively than some races are. This one could be good, fingers crossed.

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Date 2020.10.23   Time 17:41 (UTC)

Quote

"I don't want us to have to design our own gearboxes, rear suspension and other components again," team boss Franz Tost said. "We want to continue to strengthen the synergies between the two teams."

Isn't this an unfair advantage over other teams? Engine suppliers have to worry with budgeting resources for EVERYTHING, testing is limited, yet this crowd can in relative terms test 4 developments on parallel timeline. Why this is permitted is another thing I don't understand. On my defense, I am complaining about this arrangement for many years, and it hasn't changed. There is not another two teams on the grid which would be as tight as RB organization.

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Date 2020.10.24   Time 9:13 (UTC)

Is this actually OK what Max is saying?

Setting incident conditions aside, drivers pumped with adrenaline say weirdest things not common in other situations, but when heat is off, I am not sure that I can agree with Max. Civility among men is still not only sign of class, but necessity for mutual tolerance. If no one cares - like he says - we could attain state of anarchy pretty quickly. He would find out how bad that could be. He owns to F1 as a whole an apology (not that I expect one).

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Date 2020.10.24   Time 13:57 (UTC)

Only one option?

I don't have in habit calling people liars, but Horner with this headline comes pretty close. From indifference I am learning to very much dislike this man for his manipulative mannerism. Renault chief is on the record they will supply engine, if necessary.

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Date 2020.10.26   Time 21:00 (UTC)

A seat seems to be suddenly available at RBR. I don't feel comfortable to guess who is a prime candidate. I wish Hulk would take it, but then, I am not in charge.

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Date 2020.10.27   Time 8:49 (UTC)

It seems RBR is in last stages of finalizing a contract with Albon's replacement. 

  1. It is then an outsider (because it is not a simple internal transfer).
  2. I would put names like these into a hat: Hülkenberg, Russell, possibly outside chance - Perez.
  3. It is not Hamilton.

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Perez to RBR is a not. They have never taken on drivers for $$.

I'm okay with Russell going there. Could be a good fit. He can't do any worse than Albon. I also think this will be Kyvat's last year at Alpha Tauri. Seems Gasly might be on the outer as well. No way he's going back to RBR. He's def good enough to stay at Alpha Tauri, but maybe off to Renault? Ocon isn't exactly killing it is he.

Wehrlein is still an option? Or has he been discarded?

HAAS hopefully shuold have a whole new lineout. GRO is a joke and MAG I guess we'll never know if he's any good or not. I hope Hulk gets a seat. Perez deserves one too.

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3 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Same here. I feel he deserves a chance in a top tier team

AAHaa.. and look what we have here...

 

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/71322/not-hulkenberg-but-russell-to-red-bull-he-d-better-deal-with-that-.html

Edited by blackpebel

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Perez has had a shot with good teams. McLaren back then was an unfortunate outcome of a possibly good partnership. He did well in force India too. Haas is a team that needs his reliability, and financial backing, but so does Williams, one of them is most likely to grab him.

Hulk, he is a good option for a second drive for the whole of the feild, it would be good for the whole paddock to have him available as a back up driver, sort of a free agent, or a sell sword. he's lucky he might end up filling an emergency reserve seat at Mercedes, Aston Martin, or Redbul for that matter.. I don't see any team offering him a hand for marriage, and going through the whole shabang for pre-nuptuals with him... Coz there is talent available out there..

Russell to RBR sounds like a superb prospect. I have high respect for Russell as a driver.. He would be able to collab well with Adrian Newry. Trust me, he has shown enough spark to make me believe that he can give Max a run for the money.

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Re: Now now Max...

>
BradSpeedMan U R NOT thinkin about this logically.

Re: Now now Max... Max does NOT want competition from the sister car
Max WANT`S 2 look good - so Max WANTS somebody he, thinks he CAN easily BEAT
Which WILL make Max LOOK good - the BETTER Max looks, the MORE $$$ Max IS worth - contract negotiations, I want MORE $$$
Look how well I HAVE done, look how well my team mate did NOT do - IN the sister car
I deserve MORE $$$

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8 hours ago, lipstick79 said:

Re: Now now Max...

>
BradSpeedMan U R NOT thinkin about this logically.

Re: Now now Max... Max does NOT want competition from the sister car
Max WANT`S 2 look good - so Max WANTS somebody he, thinks he CAN easily BEAT
Which WILL make Max LOOK good - the BETTER Max looks, the MORE $$$ Max IS worth - contract negotiations, I want MORE $$$

Look how well I HAVE done, look how well my team mate did NOT do - IN the sister car
I deserve MORE $$$

Yes Ms Lipstick, that's what we were suggesting...

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Date 2020.10.29   Time 8:35 (UTC)

Verstappen may or may not have been so straightforward and "demand" hiring of Nico as his teammate, we do not know precise context in which that discussion has taken place, however not too long ago the same man on the same web site was quoted that he actually doesn't care who is his teammate, airing his self-confidence as a driver. With accuracy, or lack of thereof, on the internet, it is hard for me to take some posted articles seriously. My own opinion about this topic is rather dismissive of that quote as non-issue. Verstappen projects himself IMO as someone who doesn't spend too much time on such matters. He is probably thinking about Honda, WDC, and his girlfriend (not necessarily in that order). A teammate is most likely on back burner for him. It's not a big deal. If we would be talking about Hamilton, then yeah...you guys may have a point.

I've posted that quote about Hulk only because all three of you seems to gravitate towards the English guy. My point was, in this guessing game, Hulk may not be as yet totally out of picture. 

I am aware that nationality doesn't play a role in hiring driver at RBR, but my personal wish is to keep this international series truly international, and cut slightly down on the British footprint.

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Date 2020.10.29   Time 17:28 (UTC)

RBR is (again) talking about packing and going, to which I say:

Auf wiedersehen, meine Liebe.

If you want to negotiate, fine. I can accept that. Blackmailing is however off the charts. I do suspect it has already happened anyway long time ago with one or two teams, and it was deadly mistake then, and it would be even greater mistake now. It would mean there is no contract or agreement worth the paper it's written on.

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Sakae - U R NOT thinkin about this objectively.
The reason RedBull R in F1 is 2 promote a fizzy drink
RBR is (again) talking about packing and going - which KEEPS people talkin about a fizzy drink
Creatin brand awareness - without actually doin anythin


Nobody can realistically take on Coke & Pepsi with the same product.
The last BIG attempt FAILED - Virgin Cola
The makers of Red Bull changed the concept from cola 2 energy

Coke HAS changed the world.
When anybody requires ALWAYS refer 2 coke -NOT cola, other colas R available Pepsi, NOT Virgin now ...

Edited by lipstick79

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@lipstick79

Novacula Occami. I think you are overcomplicating simple situation, which rests on principle of blackmail. If I don't get my way, I'll leave. I do understand they have a problem, however I could see some business solutions amicable for all without necessity using threatening tone. BTW, do you detect similarities between them and Verstappen? "If I don't get fastest car, I'll leave..." Maybe that is why he is a good fit there.

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Date 2020.10.30   Time 8:30 (UTC)

Engine politics

Posturing continues.

Quote

"I respect every opinion and every application, but I will not allow myself to be blackmailed," FIA president Todt told Auto Motor und Sport this week.

Quote

"You could imagine what would happen if we beat the factory team with a Ferrari engine. And there is this new confidence at Renault that they will tear everything down with their new engine and Mr Alonso in 2022," Marko added.

"The regulations require equal treatment, but there are ways of creating differences. If we don't agree, an exit is an option for us. We only showed the reality."

Dr. Marko in reality is accusing both, Ferrari and Renault from cheating even before contract negotiations began. Helmut has doctoral degree in law from a superb university, and he knows well he should not be saying those things. I don't think either team will sue him (we are not in America), but this is a bitter start to an uneasy result. Lets assume RB will end up with one of those suppliers. Will they forget defamation of this kind of a respected brand?

 

I have one question - if you leave, who will purchase in a hurry two teams for a decent €, especially when vultures know you have to sell?

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