Clicky

Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

cavallino

Refuting Some Ferrari Allegations

Recommended Posts

there are a lot of allegations being made against ferrari, most of which I disagree with, I am listing them here as well as what I get from news sources. I wish people with legitimate arguments will come forward, but there's not much chance of that on this forum.

some interesting things

1. according to one news source FIA offered to put a speed trap near turn 13 which was not accepted by the michelin teams.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_new...es_art_id=24882

2. (many sources)

3. Ferrari were competitive enough to win the race with a full michelin field. They were not on a light load and ran a 2 stop race.

4. Ferrari did not impose team orders of any kind. Schumacher won it fair and square, even barrichello did not complain at all.

5. for all the unity shown by jordan and minardi, suppose bridgestone was in this situation, would all the michelin teams have come out and said we will not race if the chicane is not put in? they would have gone ahead with a 14 car grid and apart from ferrari fans (ie half the indy people) noone would have complained. it is not bridgestone's fault that only one of the competitive teams uses their tyre.

6. smart remark from nick fry

To only have six cars running, and none of them in contention for the championship.
ie it would have been perfectly legitimate to go ahead if bridgestone was im a similar situation.

7. why could the michelin teams not agree to reduce speed at that point, it would not be hard to agree to say go in 4th gear through turn 13, and forewarn the bridgestone runners that they will be slow there. Why do they need a chicane so that everyone has to slow down?

from christian horner

(About having drivers slow cars down without chicane):

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The people with the Ferrari conspiracys just refuse to look at facts, and come to a logical conclusion. I hate Ferrari as much as the nest man, if not more, but its clearly not their fault in anyway at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i personally just ignore ferrari -their points,comments,acts and all rubbish-for me except ferrari other team points are counted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
there are a lot of allegations being made against ferrari, most of which I disagree with, I am listing them here as well as what I get from news sources. I wish people with legitimate arguments will come forward, but there's not much chance of that on this forum.

some interesting things

1. according to one news source FIA offered to put a speed trap near turn 13 which was not accepted by the michelin teams.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_new...es_art_id=24882

2. (many sources)

3. Ferrari were competitive enough to win the race with a full michelin field. They were not on a light load and ran a 2 stop race.

4. Ferrari did not impose team orders of any kind. Schumacher won it fair and square, even barrichello did not complain at all.

5. for all the unity shown by jordan and minardi, suppose bridgestone was in this situation, would all the michelin teams have come out and said we will not race if the chicane is not put in? they would have gone ahead with a 14 car grid and apart from ferrari fans (ie half the indy people) noone would have complained. it is not bridgestone's fault that only one of the competitive teams uses their tyre.

6. smart remark from nick fry

ie it would have been perfectly legitimate to go ahead if bridgestone was im a similar situation.

7. why could the michelin teams not agree to reduce speed at that point, it would not be hard to agree to say go in 4th gear through turn 13, and forewarn the bridgestone runners that they will be slow there. Why do they need a chicane so that everyone has to slow down?

from christian horner

its their problem then isnt it, just like the way kimi raikkonen raced with one tyre coming off. that was equally dangerous, and not just for himself but the drivers around him. use the pitlane speed limiter, I cant believe that some electronic method could not be found to slow the cars there.

8. Ferrari did not say they will not race if a chicane is put in. If the FIA had decided to put in a chicane they would have raced. They refused to say that they will not race unless a chicane is put in. minardi and jordan depend on the goodwill of the other teams, neither of them is getting a ferrari engine anytime soon. paul stoddart is great at manipulating the press, we saw that in australia.

hi cavallino,

I hope my following comments are not offensive. Thanks for your tolerance.

Responding to point 1

If your are in sport, you want to compete at equal footage right?

Do you think a speed trap or a chicane is more sensible? Which one is fairer to everyone? Why minardi and jordan also agreed to michelin runners that a chicane to be installed? Why ferrari not?

A speed trap will see bridgestone runners at full speed at trun 13 and michelin runners will be crawling at turn 13. If a ferrari is flying behind a michelin runner and suddenly slow down at turn 13 for 70+ laps, I think the ferraris will be ended into the wall. This is the worst suggestion I have ever seen by the FIA. It just doesn't make sense and I don't know why you would suggest this as well?

Responding to point 2

many sources?

Responding to point 3

If you are quick and capable of winning the USGP, why don't you agree on the chicane and compete equally (no advantage to anyone)? It will make F1 more interesting rather than running an ugly race.

Responding to point 4

Is already a handicap race, still dare to impose team order? If you had watched the race, after the race was over, did you notice that ruben is trying not to look at schumi. Whenever they were face to face, ruben was trying not look at schumi by wiping his face with towel, look at the others, and not even a single word between them after a one-two finish. Although it is an unsual race, but at least you will have a word or two with your teammate. Too bad, ruben is keeping his anger in the stomach.

Secondly, I you had watched the post race press conference, ruben felt so uncomfotable when explaining the off track causes. He just gave a short explaination and quickly switched to other topics. Do you know why, he just don't want to be fired before the end of the season.

Responding to point 5

In fact this is the situation clearly shown that ferrari is too self-important. If you could remember that in Australia 2005, minardi was initially no allowed to race with their old cars but the 9 teams agreed to give minardi a chance except ferrari. This is clearly shown that all other 9 teams work together to make F1 more exciting with mutual agreement to reflect their sportmanship in F1. Unlike ferrari, they just want to be outstanding, no mutual agreement, I just do whatever I want.

The Australia situation is quite similar the USGP. Michelin runners are so sporting to allow exception but ferrari not in Australia. too bad.

I believe the michelin runners will support the spirit of fairness and sportmanship like they helped minardi in australia. by saying so, if other teams are in trouble, they will tolerate. No doubt, you can see it from the past.

Responding to point 6

nick fry? The man who made plenty of mistakes and giving out plenty of wrong comments in the past? You must be kidding by picking his comment.

Responding to point 7

Do you know how complex to modify an electronic setting in F1 cars? Which one do you think is easier; put up a chicane with cones or etc, or ask michelin runners to change their car settings within hours and without properly testing it. Which one do you think is fairer and sensible? Thank you in advance for your reply.

Responding to point 8

If you have read most of the latest commets, all of them are saying 9 teams are agreed to race with a chicane. Who is the missing goat? I understand Paul Stoddart is indirectly pointing finger at ferrari, what about others? If let say paul stoddart did not make the comment, do you think that minardi or jordan dare to stand alone to disagree a chicane? I believe a donkey also know they won't. Is time to face the truth, it will be clearer in a few days later.

If you found any wrong comment from me, please correct me. Everyone do make mistake. Whenever I made a mistake, I will get all advices from others and correct it immediately. I hope F1 will be the same in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hi uglyferrari,

i think u have done some gr8 work before giving ur responses-some may be right some may be wrong but u know what the ferrari fans will blindly disagree to all ur points-ferrari shud be banned from F1 then only the sport will live-else its just killing all the hearts of f1 fans-poor jordan and minardi i dont want to blame them- we all knew their stands-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's just 2 different perspectives of seeing things

ferrari fans will never agree completely with fans of the other 9 teams

if the same thing happens to bridgestone in the future

we'll see who has better sportsmanship...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hi uglyferrari,

i think u have done some gr8 work before giving ur responses-some may be right some may be wrong but u know what the ferrari fans will blindly disagree to all ur points-ferrari shud be banned from F1 then only the sport will live-else its just killing all the hearts of f1 fans-poor jordan and minardi i dont want to blame them- we all knew their stands-

sheer genius.
if the same thing happens to bridgestone in the future

take ferrari out, everyone hates them, take the other 2 out they arent competitive anyway. and have a 14 car race. when the boot is on the other foot thats what everyone will demand.

Responding to point 1

If your are in sport, you want to compete at equal footage right?

Do you think a speed trap or a chicane is more sensible? Which one is fairer to everyone? Why minardi and jordan also agreed to michelin runners that a chicane to be installed? Why ferrari not?

A speed trap will see bridgestone runners at full speed at trun 13 and michelin runners will be crawling at turn 13. If a ferrari is flying behind a michelin runner and suddenly slow down at turn 13 for 70+ laps, I think the ferraris will be ended into the wall. This is the worst suggestion I have ever seen by the FIA. It just doesn't make sense and I don't know why you would suggest this as well?

let me put this in bold.

FERRARI DID NOT VETO THE CHICANE. THE TEAMS HAVE NO RIGHT TO TAKE ANY DECISIONS IN SUCH A CASE ANYWAY. FIA REFUSED TO HAVE THE CHICANE.

and the perfect solution is michelin runners go through the pit lane. and make an announcement to the stands that michelin is sorry but our tyres are not good enough for the fast part. gues who would have got the blame then.

the minardis and jordans do not compete at equal footing. when the bridgestones were not fast this year they were not on equal footing, what is your definition of equal footing?

Responding to point 3

If you are quick and capable of winning the USGP, why don't you agree on the chicane and compete equally (no advantage to anyone)? It will make F1 more interesting rather than running an ugly race.

because it creates lots of avoidable complications. because its against the laws. because it is unfair to the bridgestone teams. because its unnecessary. because the race starts in an hour.

If you had watched the race, after the race was over, did you notice that ruben is trying not to look at schumi.
hes not losing his ferrari drive next year, he is under contract ferrari cannot just fire him. in fact he wants to go himself, so there is no gag order on him. he lost fair and square, so he was subdued.
In fact this is the situation clearly shown that ferrari is too self-important. If you could remember that in Australia 2005, minardi was initially no allowed to race with their old cars but the 9 teams agreed to give minardi a chance except ferrari.

yes andthey suddenly turned up the next day with legal cars. they got a joke of a court order out of sympathetic australian courts. if they could have had legal cars why did stoddart create the circus?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"yes andthey suddenly turned up the next day with legal cars. they got a joke of a court order out of sympathetic australian courts. if they could have had legal cars why did stoddart create the circus?"

they never tested their 2005 spec car before racing at australia...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Several people on here with their ferrari conspiracy theories seem to hate Ferrari, that says alot for theirs.

I would love to see bridgestone have a very simliar issue this year just to see how it is handled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Several people on here with their ferrari conspiracy theories seem to hate Ferrari, that says alot for theirs.

I would love to see bridgestone have a very simliar issue this year just to see how it is handled.

if you are talking about me <_<<_<<_< , i dislike ferrari

but i have not lost my mind, YET

the fact is the fault lies totally on michelin and FIA

i will not buy any michelin tyre from now on

they are starting to worry me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Several people on here with their ferrari conspiracy theories seem to hate Ferrari, that says alot for theirs.

I would love to see bridgestone have a very simliar issue this year just to see how it is handled.

Bridgstone have already had similar issues this year, but they just take it on the chin and move on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sheer genius.

take ferrari out, everyone hates them, take the other 2 out they arent competitive anyway. and have a 14 car race. when the boot is on the other foot thats what everyone will demand.

let me put this in bold.

FERRARI DID NOT VETO THE CHICANE. THE TEAMS HAVE NO RIGHT TO TAKE ANY DECISIONS IN SUCH A CASE ANYWAY. FIA REFUSED TO HAVE THE CHICANE.

and the perfect solution is michelin runners go through the pit lane. and make an announcement to the stands that michelin is sorry but our tyres are not good enough for the fast part. gues who would have got the blame then.

the minardis and jordans do not compete at equal footing. when the bridgestones were not fast this year they were not on equal footing, what is your definition of equal footing?

because it creates lots of avoidable complications. because its against the laws. because it is unfair to the bridgestone teams. because its unnecessary. because the race starts in an hour.

hes not losing his ferrari drive next year, he is under contract ferrari cannot just fire him. in fact he wants to go himself, so there is no gag order on him. he lost fair and square, so he was subdued.

yes andthey suddenly turned up the next day with legal cars. they got a joke of a court order out of sympathetic australian courts. if they could have had legal cars why did stoddart create the circus?

You must be forgetting a fia rule. If all ten teams agreed on a particular issue, the rule can be overturned. If you have read Max Mosley press conferences in January, February and March 2005, you can find the answer. Since I have no records in my computer, you can get it from the fia website, no joking. Further to this point, if the fia knew that no one could overturn the rule, what should they ask for the chicane agreement.

My definition of equal footing for the USGP chaos is very simple. Fairness and collective agreement. A chicane will equalize the pace of every car. A speed trap will favor bridgestone runners. And minardi and jordan also agreed with a chicane to be installed. Can you see the main points (i.e., collective agreement and also concern of safety about others). On the other hand, equal footing also applies to the team size. I hope you won't compare a minardi with a ferrari at equal footing. Is comparing an apple with a water melon. In short, the basis of comparison is very important. That's how the world comparing each other and setting their respective rules.

1)Complication, 2)laws, 3)unnecessary,4) the race is going to start and 5)safety. Which one would you put in the first place? I will choose safety. I don't like any of the F1 driver to die. We are all human being. Speed limit, as I mentioned before, won't cure. As you mentioned it is not fair to bridgestone runners, I don't see any disadvantage. Without chicane will only favor bridgestone runners, no disadvantage.

Please read some of ruben's comments on schumi after the monaco grand prix. He is certainly not happy with schumi. After the USGP incident, it will become worst. Trust me no kidding. If I were ruben, I would feel the same. I don't how would you feel. Besides, ralph (his brother) and schumi dad also said schumi is too much. If you can't find these articles, I can send some to you. I have a few in my mail box.

Regarding minardi in Australia, I believe you have got the answer from others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You must be forgetting a fia rule. If all ten teams agreed on a particular issue, the rule can be overturned. If you have read Max Mosley press conferences in January, February and March 2005, you can find the answer. Since I have no records in my computer, you can get it from the fia website, no joking. Further to this point, if the fia knew that no one could overturn the rule, what should they ask for the chicane agreement.

My definition of equal footing for the USGP chaos is very simple. Fairness and collective agreement. A chicane will equalize the pace of every car. A speed trap will favor bridgestone runners. And minardi and jordan also agreed with a chicane to be installed. Can you see the different (i.e., collective agreement and also concern of safety about others). On the other hand, equal footing also applies to the team size. I hope you won't compare a minardi with a ferrari at equal footing. Is comapring an apple with a water melon. In short, the basis of comparison is very important. That's how the world comparing each other and setting their respective rules.

1)Complication, 2)laws, 3)unnecessary,4) the race is going to start and 5)safety. Which one would you put in the first place? I will choose safety. I don't like any of the F1 driver to die. We are all human being. Speed limit, as I mentioned before, won't cure. As you mentioned it is not fair to bridgestone runners, I don't see any disadvantage. Without chicane will only favor bridgestone runners, no disadvantage.

Please read some of ruben's comments on schumi after the monaco grand prix. He is certainly not happy with schumi. After the USGP incident, it will become worst. Trust me no kidding. If I were ruben, I would feel the same. I don't how would you feel. Besides, ralph (his brother) and schumi dad also said schumi is too much. If you can't these articles, I can send some to you. I have a few in my mail box.

Regarding minardi in Australia, I believe you have got the answer from others.

You cannot have fairness and collective agreement when the teams have fundamental differences, namely....

Tyres

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

even people at ITV said after monaco that schumacher pulled a legitimate overtaking maneuvre. ralf has had a few arguments with michael. he has also taken michael out of a race atleast once. they made up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You cannot have fairness and collective agreement when the teams have fundamental differences, namely....

Tyres

If that's the case, why jordan and minardi collectively agreed to have a chicane although they're in different tyres?

I hope you should know why. Just simply it is fair to every team. Same track and track speed to everyone with a chicane. They were collectively agreed to have a fair decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
even people at ITV said after monaco that schumacher pulled a legitimate overtaking maneuvre. ralf has had a few arguments with michael. he has also taken michael out of a race atleast once. they made up.

People at ITV? Are they schumi supporter? I am talking about ruben actual feeling on schumi (i.e., his actual comment quoted in the press).

Yes, you are right. ralph did make silly mistake all the times. But he is sensible. He apologized on what he did wrong.

Recall schumi explaination in brief; " it is normal to take risk when you are trying to score more points." He insisted.

Looking back into the monaco race. Do you think schumi can overtake ralph in MONACO at the final lap? I think schumi can. Provided he riding the motogp or ralph decided to pit in for his drive thru mcdonalds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw an interview with Peter Windsor on tv last night. He stated that even if Ferrari agreed to the chicane, the FIA would NOT have allowed it. The FIA is in the position to enforce the rules. When the FIA penalizes a team for having a brake duct 1mm too big, do you really think they would allow changes to the course...especially after the qualifying had been completed?

Also, Michelin did have a test session at Indy and only two drivers were sent...P. Massa and A. Davidson. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that they did not take this test seriously.

On a side note...from my perspective, did Michelin really have cause to warn their teams that the tyres were not safe? Just because Ralf hit the wall and Zonta spun out? Come on! There were no other problems with the tyres on Friday or Saturday. Even if there was a problem, the teams could change the set-ups to reduce the load on the LR tyre.

Maybe the Michelin teams should have made the course request prior to qualifying, then Bernie and the FIA may have been able to make changes...but day of race?

To me, this was all posturing for the GPWC...all at the expense of the fans. Everybody blames Ferrari due to the fact that they did not vote FOR the chicane (they did not vote against it either). This is like blaming Switzerland for all the problems in the world. :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I saw an interview with Peter Windsor on tv last night.  He stated that even if Ferrari agreed to the chicane, the FIA would NOT have allowed it.  The FIA is in the position to enforce the rules. When the FIA penalizes a team for having a brake duct 1mm too big, do you really think they would allow changes to the course...especially after the qualifying had been completed?

Also, Michelin did have a test session at Indy and only two drivers were sent...P. Massa and A. Davidson.  Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that they did not take this test seriously.

On a side note...from my perspective, did Michelin really have cause to warn their teams that the tyres were not safe?  Just because Ralf hit the wall and Zonta spun out?  Come on!  There were no other problems with the tyres on Friday or Saturday.  Even if there was a problem, the teams could change the set-ups to reduce the load on the LR tyre.

Maybe the Michelin teams should have made the course request prior to qualifying, then Bernie and the FIA may have been able to make changes...but day of race?

To me, this was all posturing for the GPWC...all at the expense of the fans.  Everybody blames Ferrari due to the fact that they did not vote FOR the chicane (they did not vote against it either).  This is like blaming Switzerland for all the problems in the world. :o

Thanks for a gr8 post

;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...