funkejay 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 I'm surprised that there is still so much debate on this website about the 2003 season, and such poor insight into the relative performance of JV vs JB. As a result, I'm posting a comprehensive comparison of the two throughout the first 15 races of that season (as JV famously did not compete at Suzuka), to see if we can finally put this argument to rest. Australia 2003 Qualifying JV - 1 JB - 0 JV - 6th JB - 8th Race JV - 1 JB - 0 JV - 9th JB - 10th Points JV - 0 JB - 0 JV - 0 JB - 0 Notes - Radio failure caused a fiasco in the pits which continued to strain the relationship between DR and JV, with DR suggesting in the press that JV had intentionally spoiled JB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jenson_Rules 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 This has been done before! And i dont like to look in the past, its best to look into the future! Nethertheless, JB DID beat JV in 2003, even if it wasnt at such a margin everyone imagines! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 This has been done before! And i dont like to look in the past, its best to look into the future! Nethertheless, JB DID beat JV in 2003, even if it wasnt at such a margin everyone imagines! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Indeed I have posted a comprehensive review of this battle in the past but it does warrant another look as many new members have joined and seeing as all of them will have been exposed to the British press they are likely misinformed on the subject. Well done Funkejay. Note: I have also posted comprehensive reviews of JB versus GF (JB obviously got blown away) and JB versus JT (in that careful analysis it was clear that JB benefitted from superior reliability and on an adjusted basis actually lost out to the Italian). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CC 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 This has been done before! And i dont like to look in the past, its best to look into the future! Nethertheless, JB DID beat JV in 2003, even if it wasnt at such a margin everyone imagines! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Indeed. Note: I have also posted comprehensive reviews of JB versus GF (JB obviously got blown away) and JB versus JT (on careful analysis it becomes clear that JB benefitted from superior reliability and on an adjusted basis actually losto ut to the Italian). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> All of it impeccably informative and accurate I might add. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funkejay 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 Indeed I have posted a comprehensive review of this battle in the past but it does warrant another look as many new members have joined and seeing as all of them will have been exposed to the British press they are likely misinformed on the subject. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 Thanks bajo39, BTW I'm interested in checking out the analysis of the '01 and '02 seasons you've done. How do I go about finding them? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Many of you seem to be under the mistaken impression that because Button scored more points in 2002 than Trulli, that he performed better and some of you even think he is better. A detailed analysis of the facts suggests otherwise. Allow me to explain. QUALIFYING Trulli outqualifies Button 12-5, a huge margin, at a time when qualifying was considered by many to be the most accurate measure of driver ability. RACE PERFORMANCE Button outscores his teammate 14-9 but as always reliability is massively in his favour, Trulli having mechanical failures nearly twice as often. If we exclude the races where one or the other suffered a mechanical failure and only count the races where they competed against each other, the reuslts are more sobering for the Button fan - Jarno beat Jenson 9-7! CONCLUSION But for a gross advantage in mechanical reliability, Jenson Button would not have beaten his more capable teammate. Any suggestion that Jenson demonstrated his dominance over Trulli in 2002 is complete rubbish. Unfortunately it is just the kind of thing that is routinely bandied about the forum by the Briton's followers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 I have seen quite enough nonsense propogated on this forum by the Button and Villeneuve bandwagons as to the relative performance/ability/talent of their respective drivers and I will no longer stand for it. I have created this thread to set the record straight. Let it be called upon as a source of fact and figures in the various debates that will surely rage in the future on this subject. QUALIFYING PERFORMANCE Jenson beat Jacques 8-7. This is as close a margin as possible given that they only competed against each other for 15 races. RACE PERFORMANCE One must take the race results with a grain of salt as Jenson had a huge advantage in mechanical reliability. While Jacques retired 8 times due to mechanical failure, a whopping 53% of the time!, Jenson retired 4 times (I consider the instance where he ran out of fuel to be mechanical failure since it was not his fault), that amounts to 25% of the time, less than half as often. In the races that neither Jenson nor Jacques had a mechanical failure, Jenson beat Jacques 3-2. Once again, this is as close a margin as possible for the 5 races in which mechanical failure did not eliminate one or the other (most often Jacques) from competing. Hardly the enormous margin that Senna would have you believe. POINTS 17-6 in favour of Jenson over the entire season. Of course, JV did not compete in all 16 races of the season (as Senna conveniently forgets to tell you each time he refers to this stat). JV only contested 7 races where he did not retire with mechanical failure. If you exclude the points that Jenson scored when he was not racing against JV (due to JV being replaced by Sato), 5 points, and you also exclude the points that both Jenson and Jacques scored when one or the other retired due to mechanical failure, the points tally is a much more modest 10-6 in Button's favour. MISC. It is widely acknowledged that Jenson was the darling son of the then team principal, David Richards. Whether this resulted in any preferential treatment, as you might infer from the gross disparity in mechanical reliability, is anyone's guess. However, nobody disputes the fact that it weighed heavily on JV's emotions - and JV is a very emotional individual - so much so that he could not bring himself to contest the final race of the season and his final race with BAR, the Japanese GP. CONCLUSION As evidenced by the razor thin margins to Jenson's benefit in race and qualifying performance between the two, we must conclude that Jenson was slightly better than the 33 year old Jacques of 2003, certainly past his prime at that point, but not by any stretch of the most biased and wild imaginations, massively better as Senna so irresponsibly would have you believe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funkejay 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 Thanks bajo!!!!!!!! Great job!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 Thanks bajo39, BTW I'm interested in checking out the analysis of the '01 and '02 seasons you've done. How do I go about finding them? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I can't find the 2001 or 2000 analyses but Jenson got beaten comfortably in either case so there isn't really much need I suppose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buttonfan 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 Indeed Jenson did get beaten either way Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 Indeed Jenson did get beaten either way <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're an honest lad Buttonfan and you don't let your ego get in the way of that. I respect that a lot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buttonfan 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2005 Why thank you Dan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 well here we go again can't wait for nojvnof1 to see this or has he already seen it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nojvnof1 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 just seen it now. funkejay, I don't mean to be picky, but for the race notes you forgot to mention a couple key facts in your notes section. In Spain, JV only had one car between he and Button after the Safety Car. JV qualified with a 6-7 lap heavier fuel load than Button and had his car been reliable would have finished in the points. In Austria, JV was running a strong 5th, behind Button, even with the myriad of technical difficulties. Everyone knows my view on this, no need to say much more except to say I agree with Dan and funkejay who provided such an indepth analysis! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 funkejay, thankyou for posting the stats, showing that jb was generally better tham jv. But all your notes are completely biased, just making pathetic excuses for JV and downplaying JB's good results. Ur a jealous tosser, JB DID outperform JV in 2003, didnt dominate him but showed JV the way all season. You've shown yourself to be a complete asswipe who cant put forward a decent argument, why dont you go and make another summary but this time also describe how JB put in strong performances as well, not making excuse for the fact that JV screwed up and got himself fired. You sad b#####d Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 easy jemstride easy!!!!!! don't go overboard and needless to say i agree with funkejay Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CC 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 funkejay, thankyou for posting the stats, showing that jb was generally better tham jv. But all your notes are completely biased, just making pathetic excuses for JV and downplaying JB's good results. Ur a jealous tosser, JB DID outperform JV in 2003, didnt dominate him but showed JV the way all season. You've shown yourself to be a complete asswipe who cant put forward a decent argument, why dont you go and make another summary but this time also describe how JB put in strong performances as well, not making excuse for the fact that JV screwed up and got himself fired. You sad b#####d <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 Well come on, its not a neutral summary at all!! His 'notes' are just excuses as to why JV was never in as strong a positon as JB. If JB finished 9th, he says 'a lap down on leaders', if JV finishes 9th he says 'just outside the points'. Stop kidding yourself funkejay, you're not convincing anyone who has more than 2 brain cells. Its d#ckheads like you who really get on my breasts. NO-ONE agrees with you except the people who cant accept JV is lame Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oli 1 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 Jensen's reliability record is impressive, but it's not luck and it's not "preferential treatment", at least not for the most part. His style of driving puts far less stress on the car than some others (JV being one, Sato another, but let's not speak of him). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 JB put in a lot more strong performances in 03 than JV did. And all JV did was moan about it and get paid a stupid salary. funkejay and nojvnof1 go on about JV's car problems but seem to forget JB's problems too. JB was more consistent and scored more points. So funkejay get over it you're not kidding anyone, except a few morons who believe your Sh#tty 'notes' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JayStorm 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 I agree with Jem', but isn't that a little ****ing harsh? No need to make such a scene when another member gives a slightly biased view on a team-mate battle which probably took him a good length of time to do. JS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jenson_Rules 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 actually jemstride is right (if not a little aggresive) Your post does seem quite biased in JV;s favour, and is saying why JV failed to beat button last year and how JV had all the bad luck! It has to be said JB has got pretty damn good driving and he is a driver that puts little pressure on a car! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 Its completely biased, it may have taken him a lot of time, in which case he should have done it properly. It just angered me, some git comes along thinking he knows it all when really he's just another buffoon! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fed up 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 Regardless of what is said on this forum, the truth is that JB is currently regarded as a much better driver than JV. The above stats do not tell the whole story of their first season together...The general consesus at the time was that JV was trounced by JB. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2005 The above stats do not tell the whole story of their first season together... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If the stats we have provided do not tell the story, perhaps you could provide the ones that do? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites