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funkejay

2003 Season Comparison - Jv Vs Jb

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funkejay, thankyou for posting the stats, showing that jb was generally better tham jv. But all your notes are completely biased, just making pathetic excuses for JV and downplaying JB's good results. Ur a jealous tosser, JB DID outperform JV in 2003, didnt dominate him but showed JV the way all season. You've shown yourself to be a complete asswipe who cant put forward a decent argument, why dont you go and make another summary but this time also describe how JB put in strong performances as well, not making excuse for the fact that JV screwed up and got himself fired. You sad b#####d

You must be a British F1 journalist? No fact, all fiction in favour of the Briton. Very good...

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The 4 races they BOTH finished, had Jacques finishing infront in 1, that was Oz and we all know what happened then, go on about mechanical failures all you want, but even when they were both on track Jacques couldn't match his pace.

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The 4 races they BOTH finished, had Jacques finishing infront in 1, that was Oz and we all know what happened then, go on about mechanical failures all you want, but even when they were both on track Jacques couldn't match his pace.

It was 3-2 in races where neither driver had a mechanical favour? Why would we include a race where one driver suffered a mechanical problem and the other did not? What if it were the other way round, would you still have the same opinion?

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So, for all you who rate JB so highly and JV so poorly - maybe you should consider these facts and stats before posting your next response.

Up till this point you make a valid argument. But those who slag off JV might just be considering his last 2 seasons as well. He's not as dreadful as people make out, but there's no way he can match Button at the moment.

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It was 3-2 in races where neither driver had a mechanical favour?  Why would we include a race where one driver suffered a mechanical problem and the other did not?  What if it were the other way round, would you still have the same opinion?

Because we include Oz where Jacques had a {so called-no one will know for sure} radio failure which led to Jenson losing his position ahead of Jacques.

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Its completely biased, it may have taken him a lot of time, in which case he should have done it properly. It just angered me, some git comes along thinking he knows it all when really he's just another buffoon!

Thanks jemstride for your comments. Do you know what an ad hominem attack is?

Anyway, to answer your more legitimate criticisms - I never said that my review was an unbiased assessment of the 2003 season. Quite the contrary. You see, I'm arguing for a particular interpretation of those results, and by definition that makes me an advocate, which is entirely the opposite of being objective.

The whole point of the piece is to point out that while you have your opinion, which is that JV was soundly beaten by JB in '03, I take the position that he was not, and I attempted to show why the perception you share with many others is incorrect. I take particular issue with your assertion that JB was more consistent in '03 - which completely ignores the massive blunders that JB made at Interlagos, Barcalona, and Monaco, where he either took himself or another car out of the race, and the qualy fiasco in Silverstone. JV made no such mistakes throughout the year. Driver error did not account for a single one of JV's 8 DNFs all year - JB cannot make the same claim.

But that's only one of many arguments I could make. What I really don't understand is why what I think gets so much under your skin? Don't get me wrong, I'm tremendously flattered, just a little baffled.

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Because your original post was to settle the whole matter, and then you go and post a completely biased summary of the season. Interlagos was not a massive blunder, it was a torrential downpour and plently of drivers went off on a corner which was full of standing water, including M.Schumacher. And I think we know that if JB didnt have that monaco practise shunt he would have blown JV away; JB had been in the top 3 in the friday practise sessions. Its just common knowledge that JV was outperformed in 2003, yet there are still people like yourselves in dreamworlds who think the opposite. I'm fully aware of JV's mechanical problems. Maybe u think Fisichella has really thrashed Alonso this year, seeing as Fisi's had all the failures??

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Up till this point you make a valid argument. But those who slag off JV might just be considering his last 2 seasons as well. He's not as dreadful as people make out, but there's no way he can match Button at the moment.

Actually his performances against the blindingly fast FA weren't that bad, and his season with Sauber has improved tremendously at about the same rate that his invovlement with set up has been allowed by the team. I could go on, but I don't have time - off to work.

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Because your original post was to settle the whole matter, and then you go and post a completely biased summary of the season. Interlagos was not a massive blunder, it was a torrential downpour and plently of drivers went off on a corner which was full of standing water, including M.Schumacher. And I think we know that if JB didnt have that monaco practise shunt he would have blown JV away; JB had been in the top 3 in the friday practise sessions. Its just common knowledge that JV was outperformed in 2003, yet there are still people like yourselves in dreamworlds who think the opposite. I'm fully aware of JV's mechanical problems. Maybe u think Fisichella has really thrashed Alonso this year, seeing as Fisi's had all the failures??

No I would say that FA has the better of GF, but not by the margin that the point standings would suggest, which is the whole point. People rely on the points far too much, as they doesn't tell half the story about driver performance - they are simply raw data, which need to be interpreted if you want to understand what they say about a driver's skill.

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No I would say that FA has the better of GF, but not by the margin that the point standings would suggest, which is the whole point. People rely on the points far too much, as they doesn't tell half the story about driver performance - they are simply raw data, which need to be interpreted if you want to understand what they say about a driver's skill.

Good analogy...

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Yes fj is right about needing to interpret points carefully. He is also right that JV was not "decimated" by JB in 2003. However he was clearly beaten, as Rules, Jem, KZ, Senna and I have established. I think we all have a consensus on this so who is it that you are trying to convince?

In 2003 JV was still a good driver so of course it would be close. All my criticisms of his driving relate to after 03, when contrary to your assertions above,

("Actually his performances against the blindingly fast FA weren't that bad, and his season with Sauber has improved tremendously at about the same rate that his invovlement with set up has been allowed by the team. I could go on, but I don't have time - off to work")

he was and is not doing amazingly well and there is no doubt JB is the better driver now.

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Anyway, to answer your more legitimate criticisms - I never said that my review was an unbiased assessment of the 2003 season. Quite the contrary. You see, I'm arguing for a particular interpretation of those results, and by definition that makes me an advocate, which is entirely the opposite of being objective.

Well at least you admit you're biased! There is a lot of speculation and wild conjecture in your posts. There is absolutely no evidence that JB had preferential treatment over the year. In fact JB had to adapt to a team built around JV and what is your suggested motive for DR allegedly favouring JB? Perhaps he just thought he was better? There are people with far more influence over the reliability, say, of the car and most of these would be from the JV-Pollock era. Regarding that time I would suggest there was far more favouritism then when JV beat OP (not the greatest of drivers even in equal machinery) by a single point just the previous year. Regarding the claims about Sauber improving as JV becomes more involved these are about as far-fetched as me saying JV's absence was reponsible for BAR's dramatic improvement!

If JV was affected emotionally by the media or DR's having a closer personal relationship with JB perhaps he should have done something about it himself. You make you own luck in F1. For instance he should have insisted on a pay cut, worked harder to persuade DR that he was a positive influence in the team and done more media/sponsorship work. In any case he can not complain about being poorly treated by team-bosses over his whole career - he has had more than his fair share of favouritism. Finally if the media or JB's more amicable relationship with DR did affect him then thats a weakness in itself. I don't hear JB complaining about his treatment at Renault or many other drivers doing it... they just get on with it.

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Thankyou murray. Maybe now funkejay will leave and never return! Unless he has intelligent postings of course. I have no problem with people analysing races but funkejay doesnt seem to take into account JB's 2003 car issues either. And if JB's 2003 shunts were 'massive blunders' (complete exaggeration), I'd love to know how he/she defines JV's spin in turkey, his pathetic move on massa at monaco, his DISMAL showings at renault last year, and yet more excuses about set-up. FACE IT HE'S SLOW. SLOW SLOW SLOW SLOW SLOW

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well BAR were'nt paying JV only BAT were that is a distinction and can you find a single human being( who is'nt a saint) who says don't give me money?????? i can't. and it was'nt JV who asked for the salary BAT were keen to keep him in the team back in 2000 and hence the contract and JV's also wanted to build the team into a winning combo but unfortunately along came DR

and regarding OP i think he was a very consistent driver who worked more than he talked like Felipe in fact

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Well at least you admit you're biased!  There is a lot of speculation and wild conjecture in your posts.  There is absolutely no evidence that JB had preferential treatment over the year.  In fact JB had to adapt to a team built around JV and what is your suggested motive for DR allegedly favouring JB?  Perhaps he just thought he was better?  There are people with far more influence over the reliability, say, of the car and most of these would be from the JV-Pollock era.  Regarding that time I would suggest there was far more favouritism then when JV beat OP (not the greatest of drivers even in equal machinery) by a single point just the previous year.  Regarding the claims about Sauber improving as JV becomes more involved these are about as far-fetched as me saying JV's absence was reponsible for BAR's dramatic improvement!

If JV was affected emotionally by the media or DR's having a closer personal relationship with JB perhaps he should have done something about it himself.  You make you own luck in F1.  For instance he should have insisted on a pay cut, worked harder to persuade DR that he was a positive influence in the team and done more media/sponsorship work.  In any case he can not complain about being poorly treated by team-bosses over his whole career - he has had more than his fair share of favouritism.  Finally if the media or JB's more amicable relationship with DR did affect him then thats a weakness in itself.  I don't hear JB complaining about his treatment at Renault or many other drivers doing it... they just get on with it.

Well said mate ;)

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I agree. Being a good racing driver is as much about team relations and coping with the media as it is about driving ability. All sportsmen have to cope with events away from the playing field; it doesn't excuse his continuing mediocrity (and no I don't think he's getting significantly better).

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Thankyou murray. Maybe now funkejay will leave and never return! Unless he has intelligent postings of course. I have no problem with people analysing races but funkejay doesnt seem to take into account JB's 2003 car issues either. And if JB's 2003 shunts were 'massive blunders' (complete exaggeration), I'd love to know how he/she defines JV's spin in turkey, his pathetic move on massa at monaco, his DISMAL showings at renault last year, and yet more excuses about set-up. FACE IT HE'S SLOW. SLOW SLOW SLOW SLOW SLOW

Hey jemstride, if you keep it up, you just might hurt my feelings.............

I'm not going anywhere mate, so don't bother wishing for things that aren't going to happen. Perhaps you might consider posting an intelligent reply of your own - you never know, citing some stats and specifics might go a long way to answering a critique of your boy Jens.

BTW - I've never said that Jens wasn't a good driver - in fact if you've read many of my posts, I've actually said quite a few positive things about him. I simply think that he is generally overrated and JV has been equally underrated, and I am prepared to cite facts and figures to support that hypothesis as it proves necessary.

More on it later though, on this side of the pond it is the middle of the business day, and I don't have much time to waste on this right now......

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Well at least you admit you're biased!  There is a lot of speculation and wild conjecture in your posts.  There is absolutely no evidence that JB had preferential treatment over the year.  In fact JB had to adapt to a team built around JV and what is your suggested motive for DR allegedly favouring JB?  Perhaps he just thought he was better?  There are people with far more influence over the reliability, say, of the car and most of these would be from the JV-Pollock era.  Regarding that time I would suggest there was far more favouritism then when JV beat OP (not the greatest of drivers even in equal machinery) by a single point just the previous year.  Regarding the claims about Sauber improving as JV becomes more involved these are about as far-fetched as me saying JV's absence was reponsible for BAR's dramatic improvement!

If JV was affected emotionally by the media or DR's having a closer personal relationship with JB perhaps he should have done something about it himself.  You make you own luck in F1.  For instance he should have insisted on a pay cut, worked harder to persuade DR that he was a positive influence in the team and done more media/sponsorship work.  In any case he can not complain about being poorly treated by team-bosses over his whole career - he has had more than his fair share of favouritism.  Finally if the media or JB's more amicable relationship with DR did affect him then thats a weakness in itself.  I don't hear JB complaining about his treatment at Renault or many other drivers doing it... they just get on with it.

Well Murray, that was a mouth full - a lot to respond to, to be sure, but not enough time to do it right now - as I said above, I'm back to the office shortly. But I promise to give you a better answer later in the day.

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Well at least you admit you're biased!  There is a lot of speculation and wild conjecture in your posts.  There is absolutely no evidence that JB had preferential treatment over the year...

 

If JV was affected emotionally by the media or DR's having a closer personal relationship with JB perhaps he should have done something about it himself.  You make you own luck in F1.  For instance he should have insisted on a pay cut...

Murray, I don't think Funkejay ever claimed that Button received more reliable equipment as it seems you are implying he did. Some people certain have claimed that in the past but I expect that it is not true although the motive was certainly there: DR needed JV out to make room for TS and fulfill the unreported portion of his deal with Honda, providing a race seat for their Japanese marketing prop, and he couldn't justify that without JV losing out over the course of the season. Anyway, I don't buy that theory and I doubt that a rational thinker like Funkejay does either. This is what I have posted on the subject:

"MISC.

It is widely acknowledged that Jenson was the darling son of the then team principal, David Richards. Whether this resulted in any preferential treatment, as you might infer from the gross disparity in mechanical reliability, is anyone's guess. However, nobody disputes the fact that it weighed heavily on JV's emotions - and JV is a very emotional individual - so much so that he could not bring himself to contest the final race of the season and his final race with BAR, the Japanese GP."

As to creating your own luck by taking a pay cut, that is ridiculous but irrelevant anyway. JV's salary was not paid by BAR and did not impact on their budget.

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JB won.  End of story.  PLEASE!

I appreciate that this debate ought to be put to rest but but it strikes me as a rather disingenuous that you, as one of the principal antagonists, would request this.

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Murray, I don't think Funkejay ever claimed that Button received more reliable equipment as it seems you are implying he did.  Some people certain have claimed that in the past but I expect that it is not true although the motive was certainly there: DR needed JV out to make room for TS and fulfill the unreported portion of his deal with Honda, providing a race seat for their Japanese marketing prop, and he couldn't justify that without JV losing out over the course of the season.  Anyway, I don't buy that theory and I doubt that a rational thinker like Funkejay does either.  This is what I have posted on the subject:

"MISC.

It is widely acknowledged that Jenson was the darling son of the then team principal, David Richards. Whether this resulted in any preferential treatment, as you might infer from the gross disparity in mechanical reliability, is anyone's guess. However, nobody disputes the fact that it weighed heavily on JV's emotions - and JV is a very emotional individual - so much so that he could not bring himself to contest the final race of the season and his final race with BAR, the Japanese GP."

As to creating your own luck by taking a pay cut, that is ridiculous but irrelevant anyway.  JV's salary was not paid by BAR and did not impact on their budget.

Thanks bajo ;)

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