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funkejay

2003 Season Comparison - Jv Vs Jb

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Hey jemstride, if you keep it up, you just might hurt my feelings.............

Jemstride's demented posts are seldom worth reading... I suggest you ignore them and apply your valuable time to sane discussions.

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I appreciate that this debate ought to be put to rest but but it strikes me as a rather disingenuous that you, as one of the principal antagonists, would request this.

I believe I debated this with you several months ago and can see that the discussion is taking us nowhere, especially since we all fundamentally agree that JV was beaten by JB so there is little intellectual ground still to cover. The fact remains that since and including 2003, JV has been beaten by every one of his team-mates and he only beat Panis by one point in 2002. That is hardly an impressive record for a former World Champion.

PS, I see you have reappeared funkejay, I believe you owe Murray a response.

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I appreciate that this debate ought to be put to rest but but it strikes me as a rather disingenuous that you, as one of the principal antagonists, would request this.

It is rather hypercritical of you to suggest that it is disingenuous of me to request closure to this debate as a principle antagonist when you, also one of the principle antagonists, have also implied the debate should end when you state

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I believe I debated this with you several months ago and can see that the discussion is taking us nowhere, especially since we all fundamentally agree that JV was beaten by JB so there is little intellectual ground still to cover.

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its a boring thread anyway as its been done before! Im off to bed now, and wont be on (sober anyway) for a day, due to a H-U-G-E beach party tomoz, and i intend to get bladdered. lol. Night guys!

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JB did beat JV, that much is perfectly obvious.  The reason this discussion keeps coming up though is that certain posters, yourself and Murray chief among them, routinely imply or state outright that JV was demolished, decimated or destroyed by JB when nearly every piece of factual evidence beyond the blind points tally suggests otherwise.  If you don't want to continue this debate, as you claim, please refrain from misleading the forum in this fashion.

Please count up the number of times in this thread we

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he was and is not doing amazingly well and there is no doubt JB is the better driver now.

Well Murray, you're right, JV is not doing amazingly well right now, but I never said that he was - I only said that he's both done and is doing much better than people generally given him credit for. And I would never argue that JB is not the more successful driver at this point in their respective careers.

Well at least you admit you're biased!

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Well Murray, you're right, JV is not doing amazingly well right now, but I never said that he was - I only said that he's both done and is doing much better than people generally given him credit for. And I would never argue that JB is not the more successful driver at this point in their respective careers.

You also accuse me of wild conjecture and speculation, but if you read my posts more carefully, I never suggested that JV got inferior equipment - In fact - I have argued exactly the opposite. But to suggest that DR never attempted to unsettle JV by all the media malipulation is to forget entirely what characterized the 2003 season within BAR.

You are correct that the Pollock-era BAR team was set up around JV, just as Ferrari is set up around MS, but Pollock was out at the end of 2001, and DR had taken over well before JB arrived. By the time JB joined the team at the beginning of 2003, the entire culture at BAR had changed. DR had publicly tried to pressure JV to sit out 2003 or take a sabatical in the US based CART series, and complained bitterly and publicly about his salary, falsely suggesting that it was limiting the development potential of the BAR chassis (which BTW was a complete red herring - as was proven by the greater success enjoyed by teams with far far smaller budgets - such as Sauber and Jordan, each of whom finished both the 2001 and 2002 seasons ahead of BAR - no, the BARs were pigs becuase of the substandard engineering and design of the cars, which all changed after Geoff Willis took over).

As for the reliability of the '03 chassis, I'm not suggesting that these failures were the result of a negative culture at BAR, rather it was the result of poor engineering at BAR. It was just bad luck that the majority of failures hit JV, it could just as easily have been JB.

As for Suaber, I am not suggesting that Sauber has improved overall due to JV's greater involvement - I am saying that JV's performances relative to FM's have improved substantially since the team began allowing JV to have greater and greater input into his car setup. But don't take my word for it, read the article at the following link....

http://www.gp2005.com/news/controller.php?...m&news_id=13304

As for JV being responsible for his treatment at BAR in '03, that's rubbish. Accepting a pay-cut, doing more PR days, or persuading DR that he was a "team player" would not have made any difference, nor did JV have any obligation to do so. He had a contract with BAT that defined the number of PR days he had to do and how much he was to be paid - and he was quite right to expect them to honor that contract.

And as for the suggestion that JV has complained about unfair team bosses throughout his career, I have never heard him make similar complaints about the treatment he received from Frank Williams, Craig Pollock, Flavio Briatore, or Peter Sauber. No, the relationship with DR was unique, and anyone who refuses to see that is simply being willfully blind.

More excellent points FJ in another quality post. I think we have settled the matter now with the consensus being that JV was beaten by JB in 2003 but not by nearly as much as the points suggest.

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You will never convince people like Senna, Murray and Jet that Jenson is not as good as he is rated. And really Jenson has only been able to be measured against Sato who, really is a very poor driver. So I can't see why people seem to think he is that fast.

When will people realise that the driver is coloured by their car.

Alonso is not as fast as Kimi because the McLaren is a much faster car.

Same as Jacques has little hope of getting points in races because the Sauber is just too slow.

I do agree that Jacques is not the driver he was, but he is still highly underated by many people.

Just drop it.

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Jemstride's demented posts are seldom worth reading... I suggest you ignore them and apply your valuable time to sane discussions.

Thanks bajo39 glad to know I'm appreciated. Cos your posts are always sooo intelligent. You're one of the few who cant handle the truth. This matter was settled at the end of 2003. Think of it this way: If team bosses could pick from JV or JB to drive for them after 2003, who would they choose? Thankyou the end

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More excellent points FJ in another quality post.  I think we have settled the matter now with the consensus being that JV was beaten by JB in 2003 but not by nearly as much as the points suggest.

100% agree with the entire post

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"Think of it this way: If team bosses could pick from JV or JB to drive for them after 2003, who would they choose?"

Button, duh! All that shows is that at this current point in time Button is the better driver. Jacques has been in F1 since '96 and achieved a fair bit. Only when Button retires will we be able to compare them in terms of their achievements.

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You will never convince people like Senna, Murray and Jet that Jenson is not as good as he is rated.  And really Jenson has only been able to be measured against Sato who, really is a very poor driver.  So I can't see why people seem to think he is that fast.

Well it is true - S and M at least are hard to sway from the truth. One quality of the great Villeneuve I do admire is his forthrightness and am I not right to say that even he thinks very highly of Button (now)? Surely a former WDC is a good judge of talent?

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"Think of it this way: If team bosses could pick from JV or JB to drive for them after 2003, who would they choose?"

Button, duh! All that shows is that at this current point in time Button is the better driver. Jacques has been in F1 since '96 and achieved a fair bit. Only when Button retires will we be able to compare them in terms of their achievements.

Thats all we were saying. I agree completely. Its just a pity others can't just admit it and choose to whine and moan about things.

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HA yeah JV is a good judge of talent, well he's a very bad judge of his own talent!!! Don't stick up for a has-been, sure he speaks his mind, which is great, but he nearly always makes himself look stupid when he does it!

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More excellent points FJ in another quality post.  I think we have settled the matter now with the consensus being that JV was beaten by JB in 2003 but not by nearly as much as the points suggest.

Well really I think we'd settled it months ago because thats exactly what I have been saying for months.

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You also accuse me of wild conjecture and speculation, but if you read my posts more carefully, I never suggested that JV got inferior equipment - In fact - I have argued exactly the opposite. But to suggest that DR never attempted to unsettle JV by all the media malipulation is to forget entirely what characterized the 2003 season within BAR.

When people say things like "the whole team was against him" or the team-boss was against him it suggests the possibility of preferential treatment. I'm glad to hear you think they both had the same opportunities.

As for JV being responsible for his treatment at BAR in '03, that's rubbish. Accepting a pay-cut, doing more PR days, or persuading DR that he was a "team player" would not have made any difference, nor did JV have any obligation to do so. He had a contract with BAT that defined the number of PR days he had to do and how much he was to be paid - and he was quite right to expect them to honor that contract.

This is the only remaining area of disagreement. JV was at least partly to blame and even if he wasn't he shouldn't have let it get to him. I think your attitude on the matter is similar to JV's and its no wonder he didn't endear himself to the new boss if he refused to go out of his way to show he was a team-player etc.

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When people say things like "the whole team was against him" or the team-boss was against him it suggests the possibility of preferential treatment.  I'm glad to hear you think they both had the same opportunities.

Yeah, Murray, I'm not one to suggest that there was some sort of conspiracy to hamstring JV by sabotaging his equipment or providing JB with secret developments...... I have suggested that the culture at BAR was poisoned against JV by DR, and that is a very significant factor in any Team.

This is the only remaining area of disagreement.  JV was at least partly to blame and even if he wasn't he shouldn't have let it get to him.  I think your attitude on the matter is similar to JV's and its no wonder he didn't endear himself to the new boss if he refused to go out of his way to show he was a team-player etc.

Part of the problem is that you (and perhaps others) have accepted DR's hype that JV was difficult to work with and that he wasn't a team player. However, everyone else who has ever worked with JV has said the opposite, including JB!!!!!

You have to hand it to DR though, he is a master manipulator, and he recognized that JV's outspoken nature could be used against him. Not that it mattered though, the relationship with DR was doomed from the outset by the way BAT chose to replace CP as Team Principle, and DR's public attempts to embarrass JV into taking a pay cut or sabatical.

'nuf said.....

BTW - a couple of posters had pointed out that all this had already been hashed out a few months ago. I haven't been part of the forum that long, and wasn't aware of that - but it looks like there was still some interest, given the number of replies and views!!!!!! ;)

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Well it is true - S and M at least are hard to sway from the truth.  One quality of the great Villeneuve I do admire is his forthrightness and am I not right to say that even he thinks very highly of Button (now)?  Surely a former WDC is a good judge of talent?

JV simply said that Button must earn his respect on the track. That he did. JV took exception to the press and the hype that came with Button. That Fact is JV and JB are friends off the track. It is all water under the bridge now.

The only real issue that bothers me is the way DR leaked stuff to the press to destroy the character of JV. He was on a mission to destroy him, and I don't know why. He lead JV on until the bitter end and then skidded him after the silly season was all but over. It didn't take JB long to figure out what the real DR was all about. Thankfully BAR sacked the guy so we don't have to listen to him anymore.

Murray. I am surprised to hear you think it was a legitimate request for a Team owner to ask his driver to take a pay cut. JV may be a lot of things,but he isn't stupid. BAR and Jenson Button suffered because of DR. As a matter of fact the current situation Button is in is because of the DR mess up at BAR. JB would never have wanted to leave BAR if DR wasn't screwing him around over money. So when you see JB driving in the middle of the Pack in an uncompetitive Williams, you will truly appreciate the distaste that JV fans have for DR.

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Button himself said that Richards was the real problem, and not Jacques. He even feels JV's attacks on him pre-season were pretty much a result of all the crap DR had done to him and that DR had manipulated the both of them to inflame the situation further, making Jacques look even more a poor team player.

"HA yeah JV is a good judge of talent, well he's a very bad judge of his own talent!!! Don't stick up for a has-been, sure he speaks his mind, which is great, but he nearly always makes himself look stupid when he does it!"

didn't you want this to end? :rolleyes: JV doesn't need to judge his own talent, when he wants to stop and has no motivation to race, he'll stop. I'll always stick up for Jacques, has been or no has been, deal with it.

"sure he speaks his mind, which is great, but he nearly always makes himself look stupid when he does it!"

hello pot, this is the kettle!

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