Jpm & Tm Incident. Video Clip.

[Monty 0]

http://www.f1portugal.com/galeria/displayimage.php?pos=-465

When you watch it closley, you will see that Narain gets by, so TM had every reason not back off as he was racing Narain for a spot. (Trulli's incident in Hockenhiem) but here TM was fighting NK for the 13th spot, and a front runner paid the price.

It's true Montoya pulled back onto the racing line but surely he expected Monteiro to give him room or he wouldn't have done it. Iit was Monteiro's fault, he was being lapped, he was not close to anyone else and in that situation as a backmarker you should really be leaping out of the way even if you are fightinh for the 13th spot. Either by blending out of the throttle on the straight or braking early once Montoya had pulled out from behind.

[Oli 1]

From that clip- TM at fault.

[pumpdoc 2]

Try to justify it all you want Monty was wrong and what's even more telling that he needn't pull that move was the fact that he had enough time in hand that after spinning off he was still clear of FA by 1.5secs.

[Monty 0]

Try to justify it all you want Monty was wrong and what's even more telling that he needn't pull that move was the fact that he had enough time in hand that after spinning off he was still clear of FA by 1.5secs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you are suggesting that he shouldn't have passed him at that corner, what makes you sure that TM would have let him pass at the next corner. As you can see he was racing Narain for a spot and didn't wanted to be at a disadvantage especially when there were only 3 laps left.

[kiko01 0]

JPM was second and TM (who was seeing blue flags) had been lapped two times. I don

[Oli 1]

Try to justify it all you want Monty was wrong and what's even more telling that he needn't pull that move was the fact that he had enough time in hand that after spinning off he was still clear of FA by 1.5secs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

JPM didn't need to put himself at risk, but that doesn't mean TM is not to blame for the actual incident.

[kiko01 0]

JPM didn't need to put himself at risk, but that doesn't mean TM is not to blame for the actual incident.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutelly, maybe JPM took many risks but at least he was fighting for really important points

[Chris Strange 0]

Try to justify it all you want Monty was wrong and what's even more telling that he needn't pull that move was the fact that he had enough time in hand that after spinning off he was still clear of FA by 1.5secs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't particularly like Montoya but hell Monteiro was a f****g backmarker so he should have move over .... end of the story!

[Wez 0]

As I said before, As an Alonso fan I was delighted with the outcome... But Monteiro was definately at fault... Just As Verstappen was in 2001. Montoya should remove that 'hit me' sticker from the back of his car.

[bajo39 0]

It's true Montoya pulled back onto the racing line but surely he expected Monteiro to give him room or he wouldn't have done it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Montoya pulled back infront of Monteiro and was immediately on the brakes. Watch the clip closely and note that as soon as Montoya cut infront of him, the Portugese was heavy on the brakes locking all four corners up. What else could he have done?

Montoya's fault.

[Max Mosley 2]

Try to justify it all you want Monty was wrong and what's even more telling that he needn't pull that move was the fact that he had enough time in hand that after spinning off he was still clear of FA by 1.5secs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes despite being punted off the road by a pay driver he still should have kept his position but we are talking about Monty here and 3 laps was too long for him to resist spinning off.

[Kennye 0]

I disagree with you on who was at fauly. TM was as far over as he could get and JPM cut in front of TM so close that he had to fully lock up all 4 tires to avoid a hard crash. I am sure as usual the hot latin temper came into play and he cut him off on purpose.

Should TM have moved over sooner, yes, but as someone stated, he was fighting for position with his team mate.

I guess technically you could say TM was at fault because if he let JPM go past earlier, JPM would not have gotten p***ed off and cut him off. The only thing JPM did not do was give him the New York one finger hello......

[bajo39 0]

Yes despite being punted off the road by a pay driver he still should have kept his position but we are talking about Monty here and 3 laps was too long for him to resist spinning off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It seems that after each race I am newly disappointed with the Columbian's lack of performance. Even if he did not make these two (catastrophic) errors, he still would have been outperformed on the weekend. Allow me to elaborate:

Qualy: Montoya over half a second slower than his teammate on lighter fuel and slower than both Renaults in superior machinery.

Race: Kimi passes Alonso for the lead while Montoya drifts backwards not challenging. Montoya flat-spots a tyre and later causes an accident with a backmarker in a botched passing attempt, spinning off but not out of second place - a place his team desperately needed him to hold given the tight CC and WDC. Finally Montoya loses control of his damaged car in Turn 8 with few laps left and lets Alonso through into second place, all but negating any relative advantage his teammate might have procured from this GP.

[Fed up 0]

It is amazing that we can all see the same clip and have different interpretations. It is obvious to me that JPM gave TM little room to make the corner without running into the back of the McClaren.

Perhaps TM should have slowed down in anticipation that JPM would have wanted to return to the racing line, but it must be appreciated that the drivers had all agreed against such dangerous manouvres in previous meetings and so JPM should have known better.

All in all, I think they were both to blame, JPM more so because he had more to lose by taking the risk.

[Max Mosley 2]

It seems that after each race I am newly disappointed with the Columbian's lack of performance.  Even if he did not make these two (catastrophic) errors, he still would have been outperformed on the weekend.  Allow me to elaborate:

Qualy: Montoya over half a second slower than his teammate on lighter fuel and slower than both Renaults in superior machinery. 

Race: Kimi passes Alonso for the lead while Montoya drifts backwards not challenging.  Montoya flat-spots a tyre and later causes an accident with a backmarker in a botched passing attempt, spinning off but not out of second place - a place his team desperately needed him to hold given the tight CC and WDC.  Finally Montoya loses control of his damaged car in Turn 8 with few laps left and lets Alonso through into second place, all but negating any relative advantage his teammate might have procured from this GP.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. At the start of the season I was worried that he actually might be good but we can now see his real mediocrity. The only thing I would say in his defense is that in qualy he did go out a lot earlier than KR.

[bajo39 0]

It is amazing that we can all see the same clip and have different interpretations. It is obvious to me that JPM gave TM little room to make the corner without running into the back of the McClaren.

Perhaps TM should have slowed down in anticipation that JPM would have wanted to return to the racing line, but it must be appreciated that the drivers had all agreed against such dangerous manouvres in previous meetings and so JPM should have known better.

All in all, I think they were both to blame, JPM more so because he had more to lose by taking the risk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your interpretation is perfectly reasonable. I think your point that the drivers had discussed proper lapping procedure on numerous occasions and agreed that the lapper would not cut back infront of the lappee is especially important and perhaps overlooked by the Montoya clan.

[bajo39 0]

Yes.  At the start of the season I was worried that he actually might be good but we can now see his real mediocrity.  The only thing I would say in his defense is that in qualy he did go out a lot earlier than KR.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even setting his poor qualifying result aside, you must agree that he was again very disappointing?

[Diesel 0]

Montiero was trying to f***ing out drag him into the corner, he should have lifted off when he realised he was coming down the inside.

Oh and who ever said he was racing Karthikeyan was wrong, Karthikeyan was infront before the accident.

If you look you can see the wear on Montoya's tyre, he wouldn't have made the corner (at a decent enough speed) unless he got back on line. And just watch the way he comes back on line, he does vault in trying to cut TM up, he just moves back on line normally (the camera angle makes it look a little close but the speed difference between the cars means there would have been a fair gap). He was not CUTTING in like you are all making out. Montiero should have been backing off and braking as he saw Montoya coming back on line, instead he waits until Montoya is square infront of him and then locks all four wheels.

I am no big Montoya fan but the blame for that accident clearly goes to Montiero.

[Max Mosley 2]

Even setting his poor qualifying result aside, you must agree that he was again very disappointing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course, you are right Dan.

[funkejay 0]

I disagree with you on who was at fauly. TM was as far over as he could get and JPM cut in front of TM so close that he had to fully lock up all 4 tires to avoid a hard crash. I am sure as usual the hot latin temper came into play and he cut him off on purpose.

Should TM have moved over sooner, yes, but as someone stated, he was fighting for position with his team mate.

I guess technically you could say TM was at fault because if he let JPM go past earlier, JPM would not have gotten p***ed off and cut him off. The only thing JPM did not do was give him the New York one finger hello......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

JPM was guitly of nothing in this incident except impatience. As I recall, this accident occured at the entry to Trun 9, right after the exit from the long sweeping Turn 8. TM had plenty of notice that JPM was coming and TM was not racing NK (at least not closely - as you can see NK go by well before JPM and TM arrive at the corner). Anything that TM would have lost as JPM went by he would have recovered when JPM next lapped NK.

TM was two laps down and there is no excuse for taking out one of the leaders becuase you don't know how to obey a blue flag. TM should have SLOWED down to allow JPM through, and not try to race him so deeply into the corner. It's not JPM's fault that TM wasn't sensible enough to start braking early and allow JPM through just before the entry to the corner - which would have cost TM the least amount of time in being lapped (and is generally recognized as the best way to allow a front runner by).

Having said that, if it had been me, I would have waited to Turn 11 at the end of the long back straight to overtake TM, given his reputation for unpredictability, but that doesn't make JPM responsible for the accident.

[Fed up 0]

JPM was guitly of nothing in this incident except impatience. As I recall, this accident occured at the entry to Trun 9, right after the exit from the long sweeping Turn 8. TM had plenty of notice that JPM was coming and TM was not racing NK (at least not closely - as you can see NK go by well before JPM and TM arrive at the corner). Anything that TM would have lost as JPM went by he would have recovered when JPM next lapped NK.

TM was two laps down and there is no excuse for taking out one of the leaders becuase you don't know how to obey a blue flag. TM should have SLOWED down to allow JPM through, and not try to race him so deeply into the corner. It's not JPM's fault that TM wasn't sensible enough to start braking early and allow JPM through just before the entry to the corner - which would have cost TM the least amount of time in being lapped (and is generally recognized as the best way to allow a front runner by).

Having said that, if it had been me, I would have waited to Turn 11 at the end of the long back straight to overtake TM, given his reputation for unpredictability, but that doesn't make JPM responsible for the accident.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are all agreed that it was ultimately TM's fault for not slowing down ahead of the corner to allow JPM a smooth overtaking manoeuvre. JPM's has to share the blame because he chose to overtake, regardless, and then made the move across TM that led to him locking his brakes and colliding with the Columbian.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

[bajo39 0]

JPM was guitly of nothing in this incident except impatience. As I recall, this accident occured at the entry to Trun 9, right after the exit from the long sweeping Turn 8. TM had plenty of notice that JPM was coming and TM was not racing NK (at least not closely - as you can see NK go by well before JPM and TM arrive at the corner). Anything that TM would have lost as JPM went by he would have recovered when JPM next lapped NK.

TM was two laps down and there is no excuse for taking out one of the leaders becuase you don't know how to obey a blue flag. TM should have SLOWED down to allow JPM through, and not try to race him so deeply into the corner. It's not JPM's fault that TM wasn't sensible enough to start braking early and allow JPM through just before the entry to the corner - which would have cost TM the least amount of time in being lapped (and is generally recognized as the best way to allow a front runner by).

Having said that, if it had been me, I would have waited to Turn 11 at the end of the long back straight to overtake TM, given his reputation for unpredictability, but that doesn't make JPM responsible for the accident.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A few points to consider:

1) TM did not expect JPM to slash across his nose and nor should he have. This practice was discussed several times during drivers' meetings and was agreed as unacceptable.

2) Given point 1, TM should not have slowed down as you suggest because there was no need to do so given normal practice. If Montoya had stayed on his inside passing line, there would not have been an incident.

3) Even if TM should have slowed down as you say - and again, if Montoya had followed the practice agreed to in the drivers' meetings he would not have needed to - the reality is that he did not slow down and Montoya failed to react to this. Montoya failed to realize that cutting directly in front of another car and jumping hard on the brakes would lead to a collision - this is typical of Monotya though. It seems obvious to me that such action would leave the tailing driver no oppurtunity to react and, even if he could react, no ability to stop his car since he would have virtually no downforce. Whether you now subscribe to the logic of points (1) and (2), surely you must agree with this?

[Senna 0]

This is what Tiago had to say about the incident:

[Monty 0]

Don't bother bajo. No matter what JPM does, you are still going to blame him. You clearly lack objectivity when it comes to JPM. Let me show you why?

Qualy: Montoya over half a second slower than his teammate on lighter fuel and slower than both Renaults in superior machinery. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pitstop Summary

Alonso: Lap 13 ( went 10th on Qlfy )

Fisi : Lap 14 ( went 12h on Qlfy )

JPM: Lap 21 ( went 4th on Qlfy )

Kimi : Lap 22 ( went last on Qlfy )

As you can see when you talk about the "lighter" fuel, we are talking about one lap. Obiviously the Renaults would be faster because they were running light. Fisi got past Kimi from 3rd, but you don't seem to be talking about that, and Kimi regained it only due to Fisi's mistake. Can you please let the forum know as to Why you choose to leave these facts out?

Of the top 10 fastest laps recorded on race day, JPM has seven of them including the top 2. Here again you convenitely ignored to add that JPM was quciker by almost 300's of a second and the only driver to dip below the 1.24 mark. Flat spoting has been a worry for all drivers (Nurburgring Kimi) you seem to make it look like it is a problem affiliated to JPM.

With regards to the incident, don't quote the drivers agreement. Go back to basics. Blue Flag = Lapped driver they shoudn't race with the front runners especially when they are being lapped.

As usual you decided to speak thru your a##hole once again, which is not surprising. Had it been JPM on TM's shoes, and for the same incident, you still would have blamed JPM.

Now you understand why you can't really be the expert in this forum, as your personal prejudice sticks out like a sore thumb when it comes to certain drivers, which again clouds your thought process while delivering a error free unbiased analysis.

We are all agreed that it was ultimately TM's fault for not slowing down ahead of the corner to allow JPM a smooth overtaking manoeuvre. JPM's has to share the blame because he chose to overtake, regardless, and then made the move across TM that led to him locking his brakes and colliding with the Columbian.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not all of them agree Fedup. I see your point, but how is JPM supposed to know that TM would refuse to ease up, (he was fighting with NKfor the 13th spot) JPM has to take the racing line to make the corner, he was flat spotting and had he tried to take the corner using the dirty line, he wouldn't have made it.

You agree that it was TM's fault for not slowing down, and JPM was already commited to the make the pass from the dirty line, and was clearly on a faster car and slowing down or braking at the area with a worn out tires would have been disastrous.

I still don't understand as to why people here are refusing to say that TM should let the front runners through That is one of the basic rules.

[bajo39 0]

Don't bother bajo. No matter what JPM does, you are still going to blame him. You clearly lack objectivity when it comes to JPM. Let me show you why?

Pitstop Summary

Alonso: Lap 13 ( went 10th on Qlfy )

Fisi  : Lap 14  ( went 12h on Qlfy )

JPM: Lap 21  ( went 4th on Qlfy )

Kimi : Lap 22  ( went last on Qlfy )

As you can see when you talk about the "lighter" fuel, we are talking about one lap. Obiviously the Renaults would be faster because they were running light. Fisi got past Kimi from 3rd, but you don't seem to be talking about that, and Kimi regained it only due to Fisi's mistake. Can you please let the forum know as to Why you choose to leave these facts out?

Of the top 10 fastest laps recorded on race day, JPM has seven of them including the top 2. Here again you convenitely ignored to add that JPM was quciker by almost 300's of a second and the only driver to dip below the 1.24 mark. Flat spoting has been a worry for all drivers (Nurburgring Kimi)  you seem to make it look like it is a problem affiliated to JPM.

With regards to the incident, don't quote the drivers agreement. Go back to basics. Blue Flag = Lapped driver they shoudn't race with the front runners especially when they are being lapped.

As usual you decided to speak thru your a##hole once again, which is not surprising. Had it been JPM on TM's shoes, and for the same incident, you still would have blamed JPM.

Now you understand why you can't really be the expert in this forum, as your personal prejudice sticks out like a sore thumb when it comes to certain drivers,  which again clouds your thought process while delivering a error free unbiased analysis.

Not all of them agree Fedup. I see your point, but how is JPM supposed to know that TM would refuse to ease up, (he was fighting with NKfor the 13th spot) JPM has to take the racing line to make the corner, he was flat spotting and had he tried to take the corner using the dirty line, he wouldn't have made it.

You agree that it was TM's fault for not slowing down, and JPM was already commited to the make the pass from the dirty line, and was clearly on a faster car and  slowing down or braking at the area with a worn out tires would have been disastrous.

I still don't understand as to why people here are refusing to say that TM should let the front runners through  That is one of the basic rules.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monty, address the three points in my last post and then I will take the time to read the above.