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Monty

Button's 100 Gp No Wins, No Fast Laps........

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Once again Jem, please note drivers have plenty to do with the setup of their car, so its jensons own fault he had so much wing on.

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I deducted MS's 10 points from the USA Grand Prix to offset the argument in Jensons favor. This years BAR on the surface seems not that great, but dont' discount the possibility that the other teams got their act together while BAR remained the same. Thus my argument that this years car is in fact as good as last years is valid.

With new Aero rules and so on, and with the other teams having a distinct improvement from last year, to claim I know not what I'm speaking of, does you no favors. I just posted about peoples propensities to attack others and yet you demand I stop now or else. If you cannot accept people apart from yourself having different views, then dont' read or reply to them. But cut this "elitest" nonsense out and saying people don't know what they are talking about. Convince me in debate not denunciation.

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It wasnt to do with the wing level. If he had high rear downforce he wouldnt have had such oversteer. Anyway this argument is about jenson having a poor points tally compared with MS. koolmonkey may not have watched the 2005 season. jenson was 1 of the victims of the rain in aus, broke down in sepang, disqualified from 3 races, had a rubbish car in nurburgring, and all kinds of other misfortunes. His only mistake was his crash in canada. Anyone who isnt a brainless idiot can see he's done a great job this season

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Yes I said "you dont know what you're talking about" - that is my opinion! I'm sure you are emotionally strnog enough to take it? I said it because your comments, and the reasons given, are not valid. You said jensons in the 3rd best car - I wonder if senior f1 experts agree with you? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT. You also said he should be 3rd in wdc - what about JPM & Fisi? shouldnt they be 3rd & 4th? Please try and understand why your arguments appear as very weak and unjustified

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I've always said that Jenson Button is the fourth strongest driver on the F.1 grid, after the trio of Schumacher,Alonso and Raikkonen....He's made wrong choices during his career,that has been affected by the unspectacular 2001 season at Benetton...BAR is nowhere near McLaren and Renault,and is also weaker than Ferrari at the moment....

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Why don't you quote me where I said Jenson had the 3rd best car and should be 3rd in the WDC. Your well entitled to your thoughts as were witnessing. However don't confuse your "thoughts" with fact. ksajoe was the member who said what you are claiming were my "weak and unjustified" comments.

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exactly. Ferrari is the 3rd best car, as seen by both ferrari's consistently being in the points. Toyota is also very often more competitive than BAR this year. Jenson has been impressive in the way that he's managed to get himself near the front on a few occasions. You can only compare him with his team-mate who's in the same car - and look where he is each race!

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It wasnt to do with the wing level. If he had high rear downforce he wouldnt have had such oversteer.

Not if he had a poor setup of ARB or Springs and dampers.

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Well we dont know what setup he had, so don't go blaming the driver. Whilst the driver does have input, its the team who set up the car. Its not jensons fault he went from 4th to 7th. Brundle said button was going through the speed trap at 307kph, and the other frontrunners at about 315kph. So you gotta give JB some credit for actually staying in the points and holding off barrichello for a while

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Webber has been 10K down on the top drivers all year....

and its not the team who make the calls, its all based on driver inputs, unless your JV and new at sauber. The driver works with his engineer to get the setup they feel is best.

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Yeah so do you really think after practise sessions jenson decided to go for a set-up that would give him oversteer. I don't think so

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No I dont know much about setting up an f1 car - and are you an expert then? Basically jenson suffered from poor straightline speed & oversteer - and you think its all button's fault. That doesnt sound like someone who knows about setting up f1 cars. If they could have done something about it I'm sure they would have, such as adjusting the wing at the pit-stop. What's your problem? You're another 1 of these scum button-haters who cant get enough of making other people's day miserable, just by deliberately being an arse. Give it a rest

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No I dont know much about setting up an f1 car - and are you an expert then? Basically jenson suffered from poor straightline speed & oversteer - and you think its all button's fault. That doesnt sound like someone who knows about setting up f1 cars. If they could have done something about it I'm sure they would have, such as adjusting the wing at the pit-stop. What's your problem? You're another 1 of these scum button-haters who cant get enough of making other people's day miserable, just by deliberately being an arse. Give it a rest

Button set up the car expected a slightly wetter race. Hence extra wing. I do find it somehow odd he was setting it up in such away that in lower mechanical grip situations that he'd oversteer as this would be bad for a wet race, but thats BAR and Button for you.

Im also not an 'expert' on F1 car setup, but i like to think i have some decent knowledge on it.

I also semi stuck up for Button in another thread (maybe it was this one actaully) where it was said he should be higher in the WDC. So i don't just slag off Button because he is there.

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but thats BAR and Button for you.

Looks like your comments ARE just anti-button to me. Sounds like you think you could set up an f1 car better than BAR. Are you that arrogant?

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Maybe they did get it wrong - happens a lot with setup. But you can't blame button for struggling with that car as a result, and getting passed by RB & Ralf

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Im not blaming him for having trouble with it in the rce, im blaming him for having that setup though.

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So he took a gamble predicting wet weather, and it didnt pay off. Is there any need to say "thats BAR & Button for you" implying they dont know what it takes to set up an f1 car. Tell me why you don't like JB. Cos you wouldnt be having this argument if it was about any other driver would you. Tell me who your favourite driver is and I'll go into all the details of how crap he is, even if he's actually very good

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i think JB has better potenza for future than GF and JT, but he really needs Wins, and more than 5 already. It is hard task for 2006 to have 5 wins, coz opponents are strong: FA, KR, JPM, MS, RB, and others.

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I've only been gone for a few days, and I can hardly believe what's happened to our 'beloved' forum.

At the risk of dredging up a dying debate, there's a few posts above that I feel I must comment on.

The value of one's opinion and posts can not be assessed simply by establishing the length of time that they have watched F1 (or been a member of this forum). Although long term familiarity with the sport can often provide a better historical context and greater understanding of some issues, it is no guarantee that your own analysis is sound, or that the opinions of your less experienced counterparts are devoid of worth. Assess each argument and assertion on its merits (not by your opinion of its maker), and you will avoid descending into such ad hominems.

And the next time senior members of the forum are tempted to engage in such condescension, remember that it flatters you the least.

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I've only been gone for a few days, and I can hardly believe what's happened to our 'beloved' forum.

At the risk of dredging up a dying debate, there's a few posts above that I feel I must comment on.

The value of one's opinion and posts can not be assessed simply by establishing the length of time that they have watched F1 (or been a member of this forum). Although long term familiarity with the sport can often provide a better historical context and greater understanding of some issues, it is no guarantee that your own analysis is sound, or that the opinions of your less experienced counterparts are devoid of worth. Assess each argument and assertion on its merits (not by your opinion of its maker), and you will avoid descending into such ad hominems.

And the next time senior members of the forum are tempted to engage in such condescension, remember that it flatters you the least.

Couldn

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I've only been gone for a few days, and I can hardly believe what's happened to our 'beloved' forum.

At the risk of dredging up a dying debate, there's a few posts above that I feel I must comment on.

The value of one's opinion and posts can not be assessed simply by establishing the length of time that they have watched F1 (or been a member of this forum). Although long term familiarity with the sport can often provide a better historical context and greater understanding of some issues, it is no guarantee that your own analysis is sound, or that the opinions of your less experienced counterparts are devoid of worth. Assess each argument and assertion on its merits (not by your opinion of its maker), and you will avoid descending into such ad hominems.

And the next time senior members of the forum are tempted to engage in such condescension, remember that it flatters you the least.

Enough already with the ad hominems, FJ! I know it's your favourite phrase, but its beginning to mess with my head! :wacko:

(Agree with you though, of course)

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