It Wasn

[Monty 0]

The last time you two (Jacques and Juan Pablo) were side-by-side might have been in Suzuka and it didn't come off so well. What was your version of it, Jacques?

JV: I was a bit surprised when I saw Juan Pablo in the wall. When you're racing and you go through a corner, you only leave room if the guy's next to you. If the person is still behind you just take your line and you expect the other person to lift, because he hasn't won the corner. That's all. I was concentrating on the straight line and once I got on the straight, I looked in the mirrors to see where he was and I saw him in the wall so I was a bit surprised. I guess Juan Pablo judged that he would be next to me by the time we got to the exit

[ellswrth 0]

[... edits ...]

JV "If you're behind the front wheel, then you're not next to the person, you're not in the line of sight." ... "I find that a little bit dangerous, mostly when you see that some drivers will put another one on the grass in the middle of a straightline and there's no punishment for that. So I find that a little bit difficult to accept."

Juan Pablo

"What he's saying in a way is true. The rules are so inconsistent with everybody that it's very hard to judge."

Pretty clear photos.

I'll declare straight out that I like both these drivers, and I like Villeneuve more.

I think J-P is right to feel aggrieved because he was pushed off.

I think JV is right to feel unjustly penalized for the follwing reasons;

• Juan Pablo is pretty far alongside and would expect to be left room BUT is definitely in a blind spot - it's unlikely JV knew exactly where he was keeping in mind those three photos represent about a second in time
  
• Webber (I think) made a much more aggressive move pushing Alonso onto the grass during a pass in the late stages of the race, but Alonso didn't crash - no crash, no penalty
  

I think this is one of those situations where everyone should move on. I'd like to think that somewhere along the line J-P and JV sit down and agree to disagree on this.

OK, and pigs should fly, too

[Wez 0]

Good to see JV thinks Monty was'nt next to him... Sure JV we believe you over the photo!

"In a way he got a penalty, but in a way he didn't. He got a 25 second penalty when he finished 12th. What does that matter? It doesn't change anything. It's kind of ridiculous that you give a penalty to someone who finished 12th which is probably going to drop him a place. Wow, 13th"

Very true! What a joke that is!

[YHR 0]

Good to see JV thinks Monty was'nt next to him... Sure JV we believe you over the photo!

"In a way he got a penalty, but in a way he didn't. He got a 25 second penalty when he finished 12th. What does that matter? It doesn't change anything. It's kind of ridiculous that you give a penalty to someone who finished 12th which is probably going to drop him a place. Wow, 13th"

Very true! What a joke that is!

The picture you have circled indicates a point in time that is already too late. Montoya has already run out of pavement.

My personal feeling is that it was a racing accident, but I fully appreciate the other viewpoint. You live by the sword you die by the sword. If JPM continues to attempt passes like that, it won't be the last time he is involved in an accident.

[KoolMonkey 0]

I posted some similar screenies in another pic. That was the only camera angle we got to see. I wonder if the stewards had another one to look at that wasn't broadcast that showed something else. From what I could see, JPM was never right beside JV, he was a little back. Drivers dont' have good peripheral vision with a balaclava + helmut. Sure they have mirrors, but why would be JV be looking left going into a righthand corner.

I think it shuold have been left as a race incident. A 25second penalty is very tame so clearly the stewards didnt' have much if any evidence to say JV was 100% to blame. JPM is the bigger idiot here as this is his 3rd avoidable crash this year.

Also, JPM hit Kimi before his tangle with JV. JPM needs to calm down.

[Monty 0]

Also, JPM hit Kimi before his tangle with JV. JPM needs to calm down.

CAn you please provide proof for this....

I urge you take a closer look at the second shot once more, and to me and Wez it cleraly shows that JPM was besides JV. This was the precisely the reason why I started this thread, inorder for people to have more objectivity than just plain bashing.

[YHR 0]

CAn you please provide proof for this....

I urge you take a closer look at the second shot once more, and to me and Wez it cleraly shows that JPM was besides JV. This was the precisely the reason why I started this thread, inorder for people to have more objectivity than just plain bashing.

Monty

If you have a look at the top photo where the cars first come into view. JV clearly is ahead of Montoya and has the inside line on the corner. At that point JPM should have abandoned the attempt to pass, but he did not, and was shown the way out of the race.

He is aggressive to a fault at times. This is one of those time. All he had to do was back out of the throttle, position his car to the right of JV rear's and pick up a simple pass on the inside down the straight. Instead he pulls a move with a low chance of success.

This is not about whose fault it is. Blame JV all you want. This is a perfect example of why Montoya is not winning more races. If Montoya does not look at what actions of his lead to this accident then he will never learn the patience it takes to become world champion. It is all a matter of risk management. At this stage in the race, at the place he was on the track, it made no sense to attempt a pass like that.

If this was for the lead on the final lap, then maybe, but not the second lap in against a car that is clearly inferior to his own. An easy pass with a high degree of success was only a second away, but he did not think about that. Instead he went for the outside move with high risk attached to it.

[demonhorse 0]

Monty

If you have a look at the top photo where the cars first come into view. JV clearly is ahead of Montoya and has the inside line on the corner. At that point JPM should have abandoned the attempt to pass, but he did not, and was shown the way out of the race.

He is aggressive to a fault at times. This is one of those time. All he had to do was back out of the throttle, position his car to the right of JV rear's and pick up a simple pass on the inside down the straight. Instead he pulls a move with a low chance of success.

This is not about whose fault it is. Blame JV all you want. This is a perfect example of why Montoya is not winning more races. If Montoya does not look at what actions of his lead to this accident then he will never learn the patience it takes to become world champion. It is all a matter of risk management. At this stage in the race, at the place he was on the track, it made no sense to attempt a pass like that.

If this was for the lead on the final lap, then maybe, but not the second lap in against a car that is clearly inferior to his own. An easy pass with a high degree of success was only a second away, but he did not think about that. Instead he went for the outside move with high risk attached to it.

no I think he was asking to prove that JPM had hit Kimi. The way I remember it Kimis onboard camera clearly showed that HE cut the chicane (end of lap 1 I think? the graphic showed up Kimi not JPM)

What you mean JPM wanted to pass and improve his position as early and quickly as possible and set himself up for passing others on the next lap?

My god, that's a travesty and such moves to pass other drivers should be banned....... [/sarcasm]

[juanpablo 0]

thank u monty....good pictures !

[JV's toenail 0]

Anybody notice the 'SC' icon in the pics? What does that mean? I thought it mean the safety car was out, so drivers weren't allowed to overtake ...

[Monty 0]

This is not about whose fault it is. Blame JV all you want.

Please show me one post wherein I had blamed JV? YOu keep saying it is JPM's fault and seems to be absolving JV and that is what I question. I'm Canadian so I do support JV (incase if you think that I'm anti JV)

I posted this thread because, there are a few people (including you) have started blaming JPM, and JV claims JPM was nowhere near him, and the pictures apparently paint a different picture. I don't care if JV is punished or not, all I know is it would have been a fantastic race for JPM if not for the crash. Note he was ahead of Kimi before the crash, and it would have been exciting to see who came out on tops, and this crash made sure that we were deprived of that.

All I'm asking from you is some objectivity. Had you said that JV is partially responsible, then I would considered the matter closed. Instead you just go on and on about how it is JPM's fault.

[YHR 0]

no I think he was asking to prove that JPM had hit Kimi. The way I remember it Kimis onboard camera clearly showed that HE cut the chicane (end of lap 1 I think? the graphic showed up Kimi not JPM)

What you mean JPM wanted to pass and improve his position as early and quickly as possible and set himself up for passing others on the next lap?

My god, that's a travesty and such moves to pass other drivers should be banned....... [/sarcasm]

No you are right Demonhorse JPM is a bold aggressive driver and is not afraid to pass someone.

Let me use your sarcasm for a moment. Humour me here.

"What you mean JPM wanted to pass and improve his position as early and quickly as possible and set himself up for passing others on the next lap?

AS SAFELY AS POSSIBLE WITHOUT WRECKING HIS CAR"

The bold type stuff is the thing JPM has to work on.

FA knows all about this and drives with the end goal in mind. I don't think Montoya thinks farther ahead then the next corner.

I am looking at this objectively.

I have clearly stated JV was penalized and I accept his error in not yielding to Montoya. Even though he claims he never saw him. I know you guys must think he should be looking over his left shoulder coming into a right hander, but Ok. There is a reason they call the outside pass one of the most dangerous in Motorsport. It got that moniker long before JV pushed Montoya onto the grass in Japan.

Why is it Montoya fans seem to think their guy is totally blameless in this crash???? I offer some constructive critiscm of Montoya's lack of judgement, and suggestions of what he should be thinking about when he races, and all I get back is

It was JV's fault, It was JV's fault, It was JV's fault. Ya I get it. If JPM himself has the same attitude I suggest he will have learned nothing from this life experience and not grow into a better driver.

Which is exactly the thing that is being discussed so often about JPM. He is no better now then he was when he got into F1. Same old, same old.

Please show me one post wherein I had blamed JV? YOu keep saying it is JPM's fault and seems to be absolving JV and that is what I question. I'm Canadian so I do support JV (incase if you think that I'm anti JV)

I posted this thread because, there are a few people (including you) have started blaming JPM, and JV claims JPM was nowhere near him, and the pictures apparently paint a different picture. I don't care if JV is punished or not, all I know is it would have been a fantastic race for JPM if not for the crash. Note he was ahead of Kimi before the crash, and it would have been exciting to see who came out on tops, and this crash made sure that we were deprived of that.

All I'm asking from you is some objectivity. Had you said that JV is partially responsible, then I would considered the matter closed. Instead you just go on and on about how it is JPM's fault.

I have to challenge you on those statements Monty. NEVER have I said the accident wasn't JV's fault. At least two times I have mentioned I agree with the stewards decision. Constructive critising JPM's poor judgement does not negate JV's responsibility in this. IMO it was a racing accident. I have said this many times. A racing accident means the blame is shared. JV never knew Montoya was there so didn't think about making room for him. IMO.

However the stewards penalized him, and that I accept. That doesn't mean that Montoya should walk away from this accident and learn nothing!!!!. Only a fool does that.

How many things could JV do to prevent this from happening, and how many things could JPM have done to prevent this from happening??? Interesting thought isn't it. The one thing JV could have done is slowed down to take the inside and leave the outside to JPM However with JPM drafting JV so closely slowing to take the inside line JPM may have piled into the back of him, which is exactly what JV said. Slowing down early or letting off suddenly is a mistake in a race car. JV had to take the line he was on to make that corner in the fuel heavy Sauber. Otherwise he would have pushed out past the apex and collected JPM on the outside anyway. It is simple physics. When you are racing for position you drive your line and at speed. It is the responsibility of the passing driver to make his way around you.

[funkejay 0]

The picture you have circled indicates a point in time that is already too late. Montoya has already run out of pavement.

Absolutely correct - by the time JPM came alongside, it was far too late for JV to do anything about it. The time split from one frame to the next shown above is significantly less than a second, and that simply wouldn't provide a sufficient opportunity for JV to correct and give JPM enough room to avoid going off course or colliding.

I posted some similar screenies in another pic. That was the only camera angle we got to see. I wonder if the stewards had another one to look at that wasn't broadcast that showed something else. From what I could see, JPM was never right beside JV, he was a little back. Drivers dont' have good peripheral vision with a balaclava + helmut. Sure they have mirrors, but why would be JV be looking left going into a righthand corner.

Don't waste time trying to figure out the Stewards - they vary from race to race and there is no consistency in thier decisions. The complete inconsistency between decisions made throughout this race alone should be argument enough to persuade the FIA to impose a Chief Steward who presides over EVERY race throughout the season.

Good point about peripheral vision - add to that the restriction in movement caused by the HANS device, and you are beginning to realize one of the major drawbacks of what is nevertheless one of the greatest advances in driver safety in F1 History. Almost every driver agrees that it is almost impossible to see alongside the car with the HANS device and high side bolsters introduced after the fatalities in 1994.

Under the circumstances, I tend to accept that JV didn't see JPM until it was too late, and that JPM took a risk trying to force a pass around the outside of that corner. It was an awkward pass attempt that failed, and one that noone else has attempted in my memory. That is not to say that JPM should not have attempted it (as I've said before - had it worked he'd be a hero), but if it fails (as was predictable) it is not therefore automatically JV's fault.

Anybody notice the 'SC' icon in the pics? What does that mean? I thought it mean the safety car was out, so drivers weren't allowed to overtake ...

I noticed that as well. I'll have to check on the regs and rules, but it struck me as well that he should not be attempting the pass under SC conditions. Given that the Stewards nevertheless imposed a penalty, I would suspect that it was still acceptable at that point, otherwise JV and Sauber would almost certainly have protested the decision.

[Sato 0]

Anybody notice the 'SC' icon in the pics? What does that mean? I thought it mean the safety car was out, so drivers weren't allowed to overtake ...

Well, it was a replay of the incident, so the SC was out for that actual incident, hence the SC sign.

[Buttonfan 0]

I would have to put this one on JV

[nojvnof1 0]

Don't know about you guys, but I was disappointed that JV and JPM didn't let loose at each other like Montreal 2001, now that would have been golden tv!!! Oh, I agree with ellswrth's summation of the incident.

Anyways, the final race is upon us and the incident is history, let's move on!

[monza gorilla 1]

After due consideration, I can say it was a racing accident. Neither is more to blame than the other.

As nojvnof1 says, let's move on.