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Prophet Muhammad Controversy

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Y'know I read all the way up to point 15 before I realised how specious it all was. Seriously, Ash, thanks for posting something that reinforces my beliefs. You have done me a great service.

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Y'know I read all the way up to point 15 before I realised how specious it all was. Seriously, Ash, thanks for posting something that reinforces my beliefs. You have done me a great service.

I seriously doubt that what I've posted reinforces your beliefs (all credit belongs to yourself) but I do believe that everybody is entitled to their own. But what if their is a God and this God is the creator of the universe/universes and this God requires you to receive His Son, Jesus Christ, in your heart as your Lord and Saviour or else you would spend eternity gnashing your teeth in the 'fiery furnace'.

What if?

Go to www.drdino.com. There's some interesting food for thought there ...but only if you ever get hungry.

Bye all!!

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The world is full of what ifs, Ash. You are comfortable with your belief system, as am I. All is well.

I just can't resist this though: www.evolutionhappens.net

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I seriously doubt that what I've posted reinforces your beliefs (all credit belongs to yourself) but I do believe that everybody is entitled to their own. But what if their is a God and this God is the creator of the universe/universes and this God requires you to receive His Son, Jesus Christ, in your heart as your Lord and Saviour or else you would spend eternity gnashing your teeth in the 'fiery furnace'.

What if?

Go to www.drdino.com. There's some interesting food for thought there ...but only if you ever get hungry.

Bye all!!

:thbup:

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The world is full of what ifs, Ash. You are comfortable with your belief system, as am I. All is well.

I just can't resist this though: www.evolutionhappens.net

Nice....................

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To Jay, Cavallino, and everybody else that matters:

I deliberately stirred this argument .... for one simple reason ...reason ....reason. I know the following is quite long but it seems that quite a few here loves reading.

I shall just rip into some of the ridiculous things, to compose a comprehensive criticism would make a book.

In Time Magazine, August 23, 1999, evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould asserted that "evolution is as well documented as any phenomenon in science" and "we can call evolution a 'fact'". This is typical of the stratagem used by evolutionists: If you make a statement strong enough and repeat it often enough, you may be able to convince yourself and others that it may be true. I would like to remind evolutionists that, despite their dogmatism, there are many knowledgeable people who do not believe that the evidence supports the theory of evolution.

Evolution, unlike religion is not an idelogy. It is a principle which has been rigorously supported. Its not a campaign, its not a political entity.

There are people who have doubts about evolution. However they put forward their doubts through scientific criticism of the theory, not through the 'attack them messenger' principle. Even if you argue that there may be an alternative view to evolution or a different theory altogether, it has to be tested on the same[/s] basis as evolution has been for oevr 150 years. Creationism lasted about 5 minutes whe tested against those principles.

The Bible says

You cannot cite a work of fiction in a scientific article. Its either a scientific article of a religious discourse. not both.

(2) Is this scientific evidence for creationism, or isn't it?

I have also noted that evolutionists only discuss this subject in the broadest terms.

ATTACK THE MESSAGE IF YOU CAN NOT THE MESSENGER.

(3)Where did all the 90-plus elements come from (iron, barium, calcium, silver, nickel, neon, chlorine, etc)?

Nuclear Fusion

4) How do you explain the precision in the design of the elements, with increasing numbers of electrons in orbit around the nucleus?

Quantum theory. We're still trying to, not quite there yet.

(5) Where did the thousands of compounds we find in the world come from: carbon dioxide, sodium chloride, calcium hydroxide, hydrochloric acid, oxalic acid, chlorophyll, sucrose, hydrogen sulfide, benzene, aluminum silicate, mercaptans, propane, silicon dioxide, boric acid, etc.?

You can make carbon dioxide at home. The other compounds can also be synthesized. Does this person know any science at all.

When did these compounds develop from the elements (before the big bang, during the big bang, after the big bang)?

Read about the theory, star formation, cosmology etc etc.

(8) What are the odds that the evolutionary process, proceeding by random changes, would produce human beings, plus millions of species of animals, birds, fish, and insects, all with symmetrical features, i.e., one side being a mirror image of the other? We take symmetry in all these creatures for granted, but is that a reasonable outcome for a random process?

random process :rolleyes:

(9) What are the odds that of the millions of species of animals, birds, fish, and insects, a male of each species developed at the same time and in the same place as a female of the same species, so that the species could propagate?

Why's that necessary :unsure:

(10) Why are there 2 sexes anyhow? This is not foreordained in the evolutionary framework. Is there some sort of plan here?

Why not?

(11) If the first generation of mating species didn't have parents, how did the mating pair get to that point anyhow? Isn't evolution supposed to progress when an offspring of a mating pair has a beneficial mutation?

not necessarily :rolleyes:

To a creationist, the incredible complexity of human life, animal life, plant life, and the universe is absolutely overwhelming evidence that there must have been a designer.

Why? you ahve made a hypothesis, please give material evidence for the existence for the existence of such an authority.

Further evidence: The earth receives an incredible amount of energy from the sun, even though the sun is 93,000,000 miles away. Yet the earth only receives one part in 2 trillion of the sun's total energy. And since the sun is only an average star among the 100 trillion billion stars in the universe, the total energy in all these stars is absolutely beyond human comprehension. ( I have read that the number of stars is greater than the number of grains of sand in every beach and desert in the world! )

(16) Where did this energy come from? Isn

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I seriously doubt that what I've posted reinforces your beliefs (all credit belongs to yourself) but I do believe that everybody is entitled to their own. But what if their is a God and this God is the creator of the universe/universes and this God requires you to receive His Son, Jesus Christ, in your heart as your Lord and Saviour or else you would spend eternity gnashing your teeth in the 'fiery furnace'.

What if?

What if theer are flying pigs? I dont care really until I see one.

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Y'know I read all the way up to point 15 before I realised how specious it all was. Seriously, Ash, thanks for posting something that reinforces my beliefs. You have done me a great service.

Indeed! Most of the science is (still) shody as Cav has rightly pointed out. The number of scientists who actually believe any of it is extremely small. Of course if you are willing to accept that God can do anything then any "evidence" can always be reinterpreted to fit your preconceptions. However that does not constitute a common sense or scientific justification of christian beliefs as the creationists and Ash desire. In fact all the evidence from astronomy, physics, chemistry, biochemistry, biology and geology points towards the truth of evolution and standard cosmology.

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But what if their is a God and this God is the creator of the universe/universes and this God requires you to receive His Son, Jesus Christ, in your heart as your Lord and Saviour or else you would spend eternity gnashing your teeth in the 'fiery furnace'.

But what if the followers of the Very Holy Murray Walker Monster are right? (In case your theology is as patchy as your science my worshipers hold that anyone who refuses to bow down and ask forgiveness from me will burn in my Hell - which is infinitely worse than this other Guy's {you may wonder how that is possible but this just goes to show the limitations of human logic, the bible got that right}) I trust you will now renounce all belief in christianity and convert? Oh and by the way you must kill all blonde females you meet - but don't feel bad about it, when you meet me all will be explained. For now simply trust you are doing the "right" thing.

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But what if the followers of the Very Holy Murray Walker Monster are right? (In case your theology is as patchy as your science my worshipers hold that anyone who refuses to bow down and ask forgiveness from me will burn in my Hell - which is infinitely worse than this other Guy's {you may wonder how that is possible but this just goes to show the limitations of human logic, the bible got that right}) I trust you will now renounce all belief in christianity and convert? Oh and by the way you must kill all blonde females you meet - but don't feel bad about it, when you meet me all will be explained. For now simply trust you are doing the "right" thing.

Murray, I admit I was a doubter, but now I have seen the light, in all its glory and recognize you for who you are - my own personal saviour. Murray bless Murray!!!!! Murray bless Murray!!!!

:clap3::clap3::clap3::clap3::clap3::clap3:

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Ash, as I said before, I respect your right to maintain whatever religious views you wish, and would never suggest that you modify them in any way for the benefit of anyone, but that doesn't hold when you assert that Creationism is an alternate and equally plausible scientific theory to the Big Bang and the origin of the universe. (I should also add that, once again, you have apparently conflated the Big Bang with evolution, which is not the same thing. In fact, the only connection between the two is that both happen to conflict with your religious views and so you attack them simultaneously by offering up Creationism as an alternative.)

Cav did a very thourough job of responding to your 'arguments' in detail (point by point as a matter of fact) and so there is little to be gained by me repeating what he has very capably already written. Suffice for me to say that the key difference that distinguishes Big Bang theory and Evolutionary theory from Creationism (or its newest offspring 'Intelligent Design') is that Big Bang theory and Evolution are not a priori assumptions that seek out gaps in contemporary knowledge where an absence of scientific certainty provides an opportunity for existence.

You see, the hallmark of science is deductive reasoning and replication through experimentation. Science examines physical phenomenon and attempts to find explanations for a set of circumstances or a particular physical law by examining the evidence of its existence and deducing an objectively verifiable cause for that which has been observed. As a result, science does not presuppose any condition or cause for any particular phenomenon which is being studied or examined. Whatever the evidence suggests forms the basis for a new hypothesis which is then tested and retested by a scientist's peers. When such replication has demonstrated the veracity of a theory to the point that it can be considered both predictable and reliable, it is accepted as a proven theory. This is called the scientific method.

In this way, the evidence leads us to the answers, and science humbly follows.

The problem with Creationism, is that it starts with an a priori assumption (i.e. the existence of God and his omnipotent hand in the creation and design of the universe and all it contains) and then seeks to find the ever dwindling gaps in human knowledge where the miracle of God's benevolent glory can repose.

The difference between an a priori assumption and a scientific hypothesis, is that if the scientific evidence does not support a proposed hypothesis, the hypothesis is rejected, whereas the presumption of the existence of God is never questioned by Creationists (in fact, by definition, it cannot even be considered). As a result, Creationism can never be considered a scientific theory, as it's metaphysical presumptions are not subjected (nor even susceptible) to scientific proof.

That is why it must properly be considered a theology, and cannot be seriously considered as scientific theory. At least not until you are prepared to acknowledge that the existence of God must be susceptible to scientific proof, and are equally prepared to abandon your belief in the face of the absence of such proof.

And from what you've written, that seems very unlikely.

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Christians don't go arround commitin senseless acts like that. A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHRISTIANITY AND ANY OTHER RELIGION IS THAT WE BELEIVE IN LOVE. IT IS THE MAIN THEME OF CHRISTIANITY. JUST 2 COMMANDMENTS TO FOLLOW, LOVE GOD AND YOUR NEIGBHOURS. THATS IT. From some the logos i've seen on tv and personal interactions, Islam is 'Its either u r with us or u r 'dead' '.

Bull. Anyone who thinks that Christians dont go around killing obviously hasnt heard of the Crusades or the witch trials that went on all around Europe and America.

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Not a proper Gandhian then, Gandhi was a highly religious Hindu.

He hated technology too, should you erally be using a computer :unsure:

He hated modern medicine too.

Obviously :huh: What's your point? Are you promoting the action and reaction theory? That the riots were 'inevitable'? Fancy a Gandhian saying that, followers of the one person who could have stopped them.

being a Gandhian,as in following the principles of truth and non violence,and being the change you want to see in the society does not mean i "am a religious " Hindu.how do you explain the revolution he lead in the "African" continent.Nelson mandela is not a theist or a "Religious Hindu"

infact gandhi himself was a multi faceted person.in his youth ,he was not a "Religious hindu".He was a whisky drinking ,Sex loving young Barrister in the Uk

"I am not preaching anything new, Truth and non-violence are as old as the hills "-Gandhi

So being a gandhian does not in itself necassarily mean that i am a "goat milk" drinking" khadi wearing,technology hating "religious person.infact being an engineer ,i quite "understand" science,and the theory of evolution

....

Edited by narain fan

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Thats not being a proper Gandhian.

Haven't you taken the celibacy oath then? :P

And old question - you will never retaliate against violence to your family then?

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Bull. Anyone who thinks that Christians dont go around killing obviously hasnt heard of the Crusades or the witch trials that went on all around Europe and America.

ykick, you don't have to go so far back to find hate mongering and murdering "Christians". How about the IRA, the Klan, American neo-nazi skin-heads, just to name a few contemporary examples.....

It's seldom a majority of any religious group that advocate death and violence, but you can always find extremist factions within every religion who feel that it acceptable that their enemies pay with their blood, and insist that it is "God's Will".

I tend to agree with Bruce (pumpdoc) on this one, and see little if any value in organized religion (which is different from personal faith).

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I tend to agree with Bruce (pumpdoc) on this one, and see little if any value in organized religion (which is different from personal faith).

Thank you, I try to keep it simple :D

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Thank you, I try to keep it simple :D

It's the only way to travel.

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It is true, that in the past, so-called-christians, have used the Christian Faith as a 'means to an end' while there were also others who believed and practised what was taught in and by the Bible. The early Christians were martyred for their stand in Christ. He taught that if your'e slapped in one cheek, then turn turn the other as well. To all the intelligent beings out there, it doesn't mean that if I call myself a Christian, I am Christian

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To all the intelligent beings out there, it doesn't mean that if I call myself a Christian, I am Christian.

Ash, you're qualifying the definition of 'Christian' too narrowly (and for your own purposes). A 'Christian' is simply anyone "who professes a belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ" (courtesy of Merriam Webster).

And to Funkejay and that old scoffer, Cavallino. I know that the Big Bang and Evolution is not one in the same thing but these two theories goes against so many laws of physics its not funny. It takes a great amount of faith to believe in these and maybe you'll do have that much faith but I tell you the fact that evolution was specifically designed so that people will stop believing in God.

Ash, you're going to believe whatever you want, and more power to you, but I assure you that theory of 'evolution' developed as no more than a scientific explanation for the genesis of life in all its forms, its multiplicity of species, and its numerous adaptions over the eons.

It derives from scientific observation and extrapolation, and is not rooted in any particular theistic (or atheistic) belief. For proof of this, one need only consider that many scientists who recognize the validity of the theory are actually theistic (though they would obviously differ with you on a literal interpretation of the bible). The same observation holds for the Big Bang theory. Consider Peter Hawkings, who is one of the foremost authorities on quantum physics and the origin of the universe, yet he maintains a belief in God.

As a result, I urge you to put aside your own prejudices my friend, and see that we are not attacking spirituality or faith by advocating evolution. There is room for the two to co-exist, but to do so one must understand that each occupies its own and very distinct sphere within the vast ocean of human experience (i.e. belief and knowledge).

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I agree with Ash here... Athiests, inspite of what they might say or argue are deeply afraid of where they are going when they die. Evolution is rubbish by the way, all you athiest just use it to help you sleep easy at night.

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Why should I be afraid of where I go when I die? I'll be dead. I always was (and still am) of the opinion that religion caters for those who cannot bear the idea of their existence coming to an end. I also find it interesting that several people here equate evolution with atheism. Now, I must say, that shows an incredible lack of understanding. As Jay points out, there are many scientists who can reconcile their belief in God with evolution.

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Ive said all I need to say... I not gonna waste my time with this lot.

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Now that sort of rubbish really gets up my nose! People who make daft statements and then run away when the argument (or lack of) is challenged or questioned in any way. Ostrich syndrome at it's most spectacular! <_<

I have no intention of attempting to change anybody's beliefs, and I wouldn't dream of attacking anybody's beliefs, so why should I have to put up with it from others?? :angry:

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