Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted June 17, 2006 Okay, I've seen intelligent posters here do it. I've heard podcasters do it. I've even heard some broadcasters (who should know better) do it. The IT is praising a Kimi or a Michael or even a Rubens for blasting foreward from the soft-end of the grid to the sharp. Qualifying dead last and hauling themselves up to 4th, 2nd or even a race win. "Spectacular runs" these are all called. Let me bring you a bit closer to earth. Most of those gloried drivers had cars that were capable of running in the top 5 positions. A car doesn't lose it's speed simply because it starts dead last. Just as water finds it's own level, so do fast cars. Those drivers certainly passed alot of other drivers in their charge to the front, but wouldn't you expect that? Wouldn't you expect, say, M$ to pass both Super Aguri's in the first lap? Ditto for the rest of the field until M$ got to the faster cars up front. M$' charge would then be halted as he came upon a faster car (More could be said of a teammate that failed in this than one who succeeded). By comparison, consider drivers of the past that have stormed to the front in far inferior cars, surprising everyone. Senna is just one of those. Bellof is another. Gilles, M.Schumacher and Kimi are three more for you. These drivers are genuinely fast and have pulled an inferior car up the grid. The key here is inferior car. It is no great feat to get a superior car up to it's level, so lets hear no more praise for drivers who do this (I am guilty of it as well, on occasion). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ykickamoocow 0 Report post Posted June 17, 2006 Okay, I've seen intelligent posters here do it.I've heard podcasters do it. I've even heard some broadcasters (who should know better) do it. The IT is praising a Kimi or a Michael or even a Rubens for blasting foreward from the soft-end of the grid to the sharp. Qualifying dead last and hauling themselves up to 4th, 2nd or even a race win. "Spectacular runs" these are all called. Let me bring you a bit closer to earth. Most of those gloried drivers had cars that were capable of running in the top 5 positions. A car doesn't lose it's speed simply because it starts dead last. Just as water finds it's own level, so do fast cars. Those drivers certainly passed alot of other drivers in their charge to the front, but wouldn't you expect that? Wouldn't you expect, say, M$ to pass both Super Aguri's in the first lap? Ditto for the rest of the field until M$ got to the faster cars up front. M$' charge would then be halted as he came upon a faster car (More could be said of a teammate that failed in this than one who succeeded). By comparison, consider drivers of the past that have stormed to the front in far inferior cars, surprising everyone. Senna is just one of those. Bellof is another. Gilles, M.Schumacher and Kimi are three more for you. These drivers are genuinely fast and have pulled an inferior car up the grid. The key here is inferior car. It is no great feat to get a superior car up to it's level, so lets hear no more praise for drivers who do this (I am guilty of it as well, on occasion). For the most partr i agree with you except for last year Kimi had the fastest car so him getting past so many cars wasnt a huge achievement and Schumacher has spent most of his career in the best car and it was very rare when his car wasnt the fastest on the grid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cavallino 2 Report post Posted June 17, 2006 Overtaking statistics for Monaco excluding the first lap. Lap Place Passer (Passed) ========================================== 2 2 R Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ykickamoocow 0 Report post Posted June 17, 2006 Overtaking statistics for Monaco excluding the first lap.Lap Place Passer (Passed) ========================================== 2 2 R Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cavallino 2 Report post Posted June 17, 2006 Still had to be done, and Massa couldn't do it. Don't forget without the safety car he would certainly have been 4th, maybe third. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ykickamoocow 0 Report post Posted June 17, 2006 Still had to be done, and Massa couldn't do it. That is assuming Massa is a good driver. So far Massa hasnt impressed me at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted June 17, 2006 The fact that Massa couldn't do it says more for Massa's inexperience than M$' brilliance. Cav, what I've stated is simple fact. Fast cars find their own level. Monaco is a bit difficult to accomplish the feat, as is Imola, but it can be done with a talented driver such as M$. On a more 'normal' track what I've written is completely true. ykick, I was referring to Kimi's charge for the WDC a few years back in a very uncompetitive McLaren. btw: I must apologize for the combative nature of the thread. I composed it last night after having too many Cooper stouts. The stout in question is a very fine, spicy Aussie brew, but perhaps gave me a bit of the Aussie 'pick a fight with ya' temperment....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cavallino 2 Report post Posted June 17, 2006 Doing it in Monaco is far harder than doing it in say Suzuka, which is where you have to separate the drives of Kimi and Alonso last year from Monaco this year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Player(1) 0 Report post Posted June 17, 2006 MS overtook the MF1's, Super Aguri's, an STR and Massa (oh the fight he must have put up ) so he had zero challenge at the start then got stuck behind Heidfeld about 20 lap's before overtaking a bunch by running much longer before his first pit....then got stuck again until the 2nd pit stop window then finished the race, the odd retirement also help's ofcourse. I mean did you see MS totally blitz everyone in Monaco!!!! I bet if he started from Pole he could have lapped himself!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tifosi too! 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2006 MS overtook the MF1's, Super Aguri's, an STR and Massa (oh the fight he must have put up ) so he had zero challenge at the start then got stuck behind Heidfeld about 20 lap's before overtaking a bunch by running much longer before his first pit....then got stuck again until the 2nd pit stop then finished the race, the odd retirement also help's ofcourse.I mean did you see MS totally blitz everyone in Monaco!!!! I bet if he started from Pole he could have lapped himself!!!!!! I didn't really understand what you are trying to say!! But anyway, if you are trying to make MS drive through the field in monaco look as something anyone could have done, you are only trying to fool yourself!!As far as the topic here, yes, if a driver can start from the back and at least take his car where it belongs as far as the CAR is concerned and what it's capable of doing, then its a great achievement.While you are at it and fighting for positions,points and catching up with the faster cars that started the race ahead and without traffic and taking all those risks to get there,overtaking,driving on the limit,determination,persistance,consistency etc YES it's a remarkable drive that should be praised!The cars are not driven by robots that simply steer the car where it should have been!There is a considerable amount of effort and skill needed to make it happen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Player(1) 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2006 I didn't really understand what you are trying to say!! But anyway, if you are trying to make MS drive through the field in monaco look as something anyone could have done, you are only trying to fool yourself!!As far as the topic here, yes, if a driver can start from the back and at least take his car where it belongs as far as the CAR is concerned and what it's capable of doing, then its a great achievement.While you are at it and fighting for positions,points and catching up with the faster cars that started the race ahead and without traffic and taking all those risks to get there,overtaking,driving on the limit,determination,persistance,consistency etc YES it's a remarkable drive that should be praised!The cars are not driven by robots that simply steer the car where it should have been!There is a considerable amount of effort and skill needed to make it happen Oh yea your totally right, the only professional driver in the whole world that can make a Ferrari 248 go faster then Super Aguri's is MS..... Think we can all agree Massa isent near the greatest driver to ever enter F1 but he finished 9th, the only people MS beat that Massa didnt was Ralf, Heidfeld and Fisi....truely is a sad day if you are trying to celebrate MS beating those 3 who are a combination of inferior car's and sub par drivers, can you guess which combines both handicap's? Face it he had a superior car and was running a 1 stop strategy, it was shooting fish in a barrel. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tifosi too! 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2006 Oh yea your totally right, the only professional driver in the whole world that can make a Ferrari 248 go faster then Super Aguri's is MS.....Think we can all agree Massa isent near the greatest driver to ever enter F1 but he finished 9th, the only people MS beat that Massa didnt was Ralf, Heidfeld and Fisi....truely is a sad day if you are trying to celebrate MS beating those 3 who are a combination of inferior car's and sub par drivers, can you guess which combines both handicap's? Face it he had a superior car and was running a 1 stop strategy, it was shooting fish in a barrel. He didn't only beat Super Aguris !!Oh and by the way that race was in MONACO.If you 've been watching F1 long enough i don't need to say any more Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted June 18, 2006 In principal, i agree with you Puma. However DC didn't have the balls or the inclination to get past Bernoldi at Monaco. He had a top five car. He just moaned about getting stuck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted June 19, 2006 In principal, i agree with you Puma. However DC didn't have the balls or the inclination to get past Bernoldi at Monaco. He had a top five car. He just moaned about getting stuck. Indeed, but let's curb the praise for a driver that has brought a fast car up to it's level. At most tracks this is not a grand feat. I have already stated that it is harder to do at a track like Monaco or Imola. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted June 19, 2006 Indeed, but let's curb the praise for a driver that has brought a fast car up to it's level. At most tracks this is not a grand feat. I have already stated that it is harder to do at a track like Monaco or Imola. I think that maybe sometimes 'praise' can be misinterpreted for appreciation of the very spectacle. If a great driver in a good/great car is out of synch' relative to his normal grid slot it normally comands attention and comment. Michael Monaco '06 is one example. Rubens Hockenheim '01(?) is another. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted June 19, 2006 I think that maybe sometimes 'praise' can be misinterpreted for appreciation of the very spectacle. If a great driver in a good/great car is out of synch' relative to his normal grid slot it normally comands attention and comment. Michael Monaco '06 is one example. Rubens Hockenheim '01(?) is another. Yes, but if you truly think about it, those instances of 'spectacle' are false entertainment....true that they command attention, but how rewarding is it, really? Under scrutiny, not very. Far better to watch a battle elsewhere on the grid and focus on the charger when they get up to a competitive position. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tifosi too! 0 Report post Posted June 19, 2006 Yes, but if you truly think about it, those instances of 'spectacle' are false entertainment....true that they command attention, but how rewarding is it, really? Under scrutiny, not very. Far better to watch a battle elsewhere on the grid and focus on the charger when they get up to a competitive position. yes but with the same logic if you have a Brazil-Sweden football match and you expect Brazil to win because is a better team(if it is) and all of a sudden in the first 5 minutes Sweden scores 3 goals by penalty and Brazil has to fight and DOES manage to overcome the difficulty and win, wouldn't that be a proof of the class and the professional level the team has?The top driver that's trapped in the back of the grid needs to make the best of himself and his car to get to the front, as i said earlier! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted June 20, 2006 yes but with the same logic if you have a Brazil-Sweden football match and you expect Brazil to win because is a better team(if it is) and all of a sudden in the first 5 minutes Sweden scores 3 goals by penalty and Brazil has to fight and DOES manage to overcome the difficulty and win, wouldn't that be a proof of the class and the professional level the team has?The top driver that's trapped in the back of the grid needs to make the best of himself and his car to get to the front, as i said earlier! Formula 1 doesn't work with Football analogies. The fact that you presented one makes me feel that further explanations would be pointless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cavallino 2 Report post Posted June 20, 2006 Yes, but if you truly think about it, those instances of 'spectacle' are false entertainment....true that they command attention, but how rewarding is it, really? Under scrutiny, not very. Far better to watch a battle elsewhere on the grid and focus on the charger when they get up to a competitive position. Yep as a spectacle it is fake, that is what I said when people were raving about Suzuka last year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
demonhorse 0 Report post Posted June 20, 2006 Yep as a spectacle it is fake, that is what I said when people were raving about Suzuka last year. Yes but people only listen when they can use that very point to make Schumacher look bad.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tifosi too! 0 Report post Posted June 20, 2006 Formula 1 doesn't work with Football analogies. The fact that you presented one makes me feel that further explanations would be pointless. Well i was just trying to make you understand using simple examples!!What you are suggesting on this thread expecting everyone to agree is rather narrowminded!Yea dude just take the car from p22 and win!Big deal!Everybody does it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vitomita 0 Report post Posted June 20, 2006 Well i was just trying to make you understand using simple examples!!What you are suggesting on this thread expecting everyone to agree is rather narrowminded!Yea dude just take the car from p22 and win!Big deal!Everybody does it! Thats why the only few people who have done it have been regarded as the best in the sport MS KR and a little RB ( which I still belive as a better driver then most and will probably finish the WDC with more points then Button) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted June 20, 2006 Well i was just trying to make you understand using simple examples!!What you are suggesting on this thread expecting everyone to agree is rather narrowminded!Yea dude just take the car from p22 and win!Big deal!Everybody does it! It's far from narrowminded. It is, in fact, a correct view. As such, there can only be two options, agree or be incorrect You choose to be incorrect. No worries. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
demonhorse 0 Report post Posted June 20, 2006 Dont tell brad that, he'd only attack you saying your comments are ludicrous if you don't agree with him.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tifosi too! 0 Report post Posted June 20, 2006 It's far from narrowminded. It is, in fact, a correct view. As such, there can only be two options, agree or be incorrect You choose to be incorrect. No worries. Who says is correct?You said that F1 cars "Just as water finds it's own level, so do fast cars.".How do you think the car gets there?Since when finishing in the grid position you started from is more impressive than charging through the field or more difficult?ie Kimi starting from p22 and finishing 3rd ahead of his teammate in Bahrein was less impressive than JPM's drive ??According to you no big deal right?So WHAT IS IMPRESSIVE in an F1 race?Good cars often do bad in races.Even more if they start from the back.If a driver manages to have a good race after all IT IS a "Spectacular run".Feel free to provide arguments Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
