bajo39

JV: Faster Or Slower Than Heidfeld?

66 posts in this topic

Some of the less informed members of the forum (Fed Up, c21, etc) have speculated that Nick Heidfeld was faster than Jacques Villeneuve while they were matched at BMW this season. If you fail to conduct any research whatsoever into the matter, and instead blindly accept the opinion of the mainstream F1 press (all of them British) who are invariably aligned against the outspoken Canadian, you may agree with them. The facts suggest otherwise though.

In a discussion of speed - and that alone is what we are discussing here - we must look at both qualifying times and fastest race laps. Here is a summary of their respective performances over the season in terms of these parameters:

Bahrain - Villeneuve sets faster race lap, qualifies lower

Malaysia - JV sets slower race lap, faster qualy time

Australia - Heidfeld sets faster race lap and qualy time

San Marino - JV sets faster race lap and qualy time

European GP - JV sets slower race lap, faster qualy time

Spanish GP - NH sets faster race lap and qualy time

Monaco - JV sets slower race lap, faster qualy time

Britian - NH sets faster race lap and qualy time

Canada - JV sets faster race lap and qualy time

United States - JV sets faster race lap and qualy time

France - JV sets faster race lap but slower qualy time

Germany - JV sets faster race lap and qualy time

The fastest race laps are split between the two at 6 apiece whereas JV enjoys a slight advantage in qualifying, setting a faster time 7 out of 12 times. The two are very close on pace but, if anything, JV enjoys a slight advantage.

Obviously towards the end of the season, for whatever reason, JV became much faster, setting both the fastest race and qualy lap 7 of 8 times! If you extrapolate this form towards the end of the season, JV would have clearly seperated himself from NH on any reasonable analysis of outright pace.

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I thought that JV did a great job and deserve another year, but it doesn't matter anymore because he won't be in F1 next year unless renault signed him or something.

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I thought that JV did a great job and deserve another year, but it doesn't matter anymore because he won't be in F1 next year unless renault signed him or something.

Yep...

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JV did seem to have a very slight edge in pace (no doubt he was playing disruptive mind games on the German), although he did make a few mistakes too and was behind 7-13 on points. Without a very detailed analysis I think its too close to call. Btw we Brits don't really have anything against him. Finalement, matching Heidfeld is still a long way from JV's performance in his prime I suspect.

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Agree, JV was entering a purple patch at the later end of his F1 career. Sadly Mr. MT has decided that it was all not good enough and has placed all his 318i's in the NH basket. He places alot of faith in NH for some odd reason.

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Agree, JV was entering a purple patch at the later end of his F1 career. Sadly Mr. MT has decided that it was all not good enough and has placed all his 318i's in the NH basket. He places alot of faith in NH for some odd reason.

There is nothing odd about it, Heidfeld is German!

JV did seem to have a very slight edge in pace (no doubt he was playing disruptive mind games on the German), although he did make a few mistakes too and was behind 7-13 on points. Without a very detailed analysis I think its too close to call. Btw we Brits don't really have anything against him. Finalement, matching Heidfeld is still a long way from JV's performance in his prime I suspect.

Yeah, he was well behind on points and much of that was due to his own impetuousity, eg the Canadain GP, but it was also partly down to his equipment suffering worse reliabilty in comparison to the German's. How much of an effect did this have? I'm not sure but I'm willing to do the analysis if need be.

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There is nothing odd about it, Heidfeld is German!

Apart from the German connection. Would you be placing the amount of trust MT has in NH?? I have nothing against NH, he is a quick driver and deserves his place in F1.

Edited by aussief1

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Apart from the German connection. Would you be placing the amount of trust MT has in NH?? I have nothing against NH, he is a quick driver. I just struggle with the fact that BMW have him as a team leader.

If he was not German, I very much doubt that he would be team leader.

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I truely think that MT got NF because he's German. It's like a German pride thing, BMW has always wanted a German driver in it's c#ck pit. I wonder why didn't MT made a bid for Nico then. He's shown great potential and he's German.

Anyway I thought that JV clearly out performed NF this year even with the unreliable machine. But I guess some of knew it since the start of the season. I just think that it totally sucks that he didn't get to finish the rest of the year.

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JV did seem to have a very slight edge in pace

He had so much pace he ran into his team mate :D

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He had so much pace he ran into his team mate :D

I thought you might put up a fight before conceding you were wrong... Maybe next time eh lad?

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hmmm

19 plays 7 in the WDC, ofcourse we can take away 6 for Hungry since JV wasn't there and Nick got on the the podium (again I think?), but still seems NH deserved to be leader going on that.

If you give me the "thats not fair because blah blah blah, whinge whinge whinge" then maybe you should change it from Fastest RL and fastest qauli, to be best quali and race position.

Now you'll say "oh but then if one retired it isn't fair" but retirement can easily effect fastest race lap to, just as traffic could cost them in quali.

Just for te record I don't think JV deserved the sack either.

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hmmm

19 plays 7 in the WDC, ofcourse we can take away 6 for Hungry since JV wasn't there and Nick got on the the podium (again I think?), but still seems NH deserved to be leader going on that.

If you give me the "thats not fair because blah blah blah, whinge whinge whinge" then maybe you should change it from Fastest RL and fastest qauli, to be best quali and race position.

Now you'll say "oh but then if one retired it isn't fair" but retirement can easily effect fastest race lap to, just as traffic could cost them in quali.

Just for te record I don't think JV deserved the sack either.

I read your post twice and I don't understand... Maybe it's too late for me, I dunno.

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jv looked and went faster than nh, but he did make some mistakes :( ...where as nh has always been cautious. i wonder how jv would have performed if he raced in hungary! :blink: (could have been on the podium right?)

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jv looked and went faster than nh, but he did make some mistakes :( ...where as nh has always been cautious. i wonder how jv would have performed if he raced in hungary! :blink: (could have been on the podium right?)

I think so. In the four GP leading up to the Hungarian round, he was significantly faster than his team-mate. Whether he could keep it on the road is anyone's guess though.

Edited by bajo39

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There is nothing odd about it, Heidfeld is German!

Yeah, he was well behind on points and much of that was due to his own impetuousity, eg the Canadain GP, but it was also partly down to his equipment suffering worse reliabilty in comparison to the German's. How much of an effect did this have? I'm not sure but I'm willing to do the analysis if need be.

i have been keeping a close watch on that Battle,and yes they were damn close.

but ,for every "indy" like blowup,there was also a malaysia where NH would have made up the 5 points,but if you even keep those aside i think JV had the edge on NH through out the year and wouldnt have been trailing(points) had he not made mistake at the canadian GP and France quali (so all in all, though JV outqualified Nick ,he also made more mistakes),perhaps a sign that he was pushing the envalope a bit too much to impress his German boss who wasnt going to get impressed ,come what may....

Edited by narain fan

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There are some results that I never liked about the BMW engine expiring on J.V. ,.........mainly both races in which his NEW Engine went out it was a brand new engine and Nick was out of the points.

The BMW engine they had in J.V.'s F1 car never lasted more than 35 laps in either of those two races which would of scored 4 or more points easily. J.V. never had a second race distance engine fail on him.

Nick has not had a single NEW engine fail on him yet and only one 2nd race distance engine fail.

The BMW-Sauber F1 team also forced changed the engine in the third race ...which ends up damaging J.V. 's chance in that race . Then they dropped his engine in another race forcing another starting from the back part of the grid. Nick has not had a forced engine change or a dropped engine.

Nick has not had a bad pitstop call or strategy to boot compared to what J.V. got.

There was alot of points thrown out by the BMW-Sauber F1 Team that J.V. could of had retained.

BMW is being run in a very sad way ...there is no way they can maintain any lead over Toyota with a continued disparity of support to the 2nd driver on the team. You can not expect the German owned F1 Team to fire their own German leader or a German driver they want to show -case ...for now. Hope Nick does not get injured or involved in a accident where they are forced to depend on Kubica for their main strength... I would not expect much.

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I think so. In the four GP leading up to the Hungarian round, he was significantly faster than his team-mate. Whether he could keep it on the road is anyone's guess though.

from what i have seen over the years, i think a driver can perform much better when he is given more importance and and some kind of assurance from his team(but am not sure about guys like fisi), but jv was treated like Sh#t! he was driving like as if he was desperate to prove and we did see him make mistakes. (just like how jpm used to).

a team boss should motivate his drivers even if he wants him to drive for his team the next season or not, to bmw jv seemed like a pain in the a$$, and was waiting for an oppertunity to kick him out and they got it.

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I think both drivers were/are very talented and both deserved their place in the team. If I had to chose who had been better during the season I would still have to go for NH though.

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I thought you might put up a fight before conceding you were wrong... Maybe next time eh lad?

No chance, young sir.

What amazes me is that you have made the effort to back up your arguement with statisical evidence. Why you cant do the same when you cast aside other drivers as unworthy only goes to show your obvious bias.

FWIW JV needed to outperform NH to be considered for a 2007 drive. Just as Klein was given a target to outperform DC to save his seat, so JV had to do the same. The arguments given so far are just semantics IMHO, JV was as good, but no better than RK/NH.

JV is 35, is not a team player as has been proved by the fact that he chose to fork out of his own pocket for a different tyre to that recommended by the team. Regardless of whether he was proved right or wrong, trying to get one up on your managers is always going to lead to animosity - it is the mechanics of social psychology - BMW were therefore within their rights to look to a future sans the maverick JV.

It is also mooted on here that JV has invariably been proved right when he forces his view/approach on a team. Try, if you can, to visualise a junior employee within your own company that had the same approach to problem solving. The more that individual proved you wrong, the more you would hate him/her. Human beings dont like being proved wrong. An individual may win in the short term, but a team will always win in the long run.

I am of the opinion that perception is reality - If JV is perceived by those that work with him as a disruptive, self centred individual, I am inclined to take their word over that of fanatical JV supporters.

Just my opinion, so there <_<

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I am of the opinion that perception is reality - If JV is perceived by those that work with him as a disruptive, self centred individual, I am inclined to take their word over that of fanatical JV supporters.

Personally I've never understood this either. It seems rather hard to believe that one man, Dave Richards could tar JV's whole career. I mean, assume if you will that MT is a rational being who is under pressure from his bosses to justify his team's substantial annual budget. Why would he trust DR over his own experiences of working with JV? Why should he trust DR over the opinions of those like Peter Sauber in the Sauber team, or others like Frank Williams and Pat Symmonds who've been successful with JV?

Of course the above assumes that he was dropped because he was hard to work with and we don't know that was the case but what other reasons have been put forward? Perhaps he was too old and they want to build for the future? Perhaps he actually just wasn't performing as well as NH? Perhaps it was for marketing reasons, although I should think that JV has more (and more wealthy) supporters than Kubica? Do we actually know why he was dropped?

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Personally I've never understood this either. It seems rather hard to believe that one man, Dave Richards could tar JV's whole career. I mean, assume if you will that MT is a rational being who is under pressure from his bosses to justify his team's substantial annual budget. Why would he trust DR over his own experiences of working with JV? Why should he trust DR over the opinions of those like Peter Sauber in the Sauber team, or others like Frank Williams and Pat Symmonds who've been successful with JV?

Of course the above assumes that he was dropped because he was hard to work with and we don't know that was the case but what other reasons have been put forward? Perhaps he was too old and they want to build for the future? Perhaps he actually just wasn't performing as well as NH? Perhaps it was for marketing reasons, although I should think that JV has more (and more wealthy) supporters than Kubica? Do we actually know why he was dropped?

read his quotes after quali at the german gp.u will understand just why he was dropped

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Whether NH was faster than JV or not, it was certainly a close contest, and since MT was happy with NH

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JV was a maverick and always provided some interest and excitement.

This is true!

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[quote name='abbas_gear' post='134012' date='Aug 16 2006, 04:38 AM']from what i have seen over the years, i think a driver can perform much better when he is given more importance and and some kind of assurance from his team(but am not sure about guys like fisi), but jv was treated like Sh#t! he was driving like as if he was desperate to prove and we did see him make mistakes. (just like how jpm used to).
a team boss should motivate his drivers even if he wants him to drive for his team the next season or not, to bmw jv seemed like a pain in the a$$, and was waiting for an oppertunity to kick him out and they got it.[/quote]
Indeed.

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