bajo39

JV: Faster Or Slower Than Heidfeld?

66 posts in this topic

Sorry im late, just got home from work.

I think maybe you misunderstand me to some point.

For the record I think JV has done a good job this year, and he has been fast.

But I would submit that NH has been the more consistent, its a shame for JV could not have converted speed into more points (or less crashes)

I guess MT had no intention of retaining JV for next year and after the Hockenheim crash decided it was time to give RK a chance. After hearing this, I guess it dawned on JV that he was wasting his time trying to impress MT and told him to stick his F106/C25 up his a## and stormed off.

Im not sure his loss will be felt greatly in the team, he wasnt everybodys cup of tea, but Kubica is well liked.

I know the JVians are hurting, but is that a reason not to give RK a chance?

Lets wait and see what happens with JV, RK and BMW, and then look back and decide if it was the right decision for all....

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Sorry im late, just got home from work.

I think maybe you misunderstand me to some point.

For the record I think JV has done a good job this year, and he has been fast.

But I would submit that NH has been the more consistent, its a shame for JV could not have converted speed into more points (or less crashes)

I guess MT had no intention of retaining JV for next year and after the Hockenheim crash decided it was time to give RK a chance. After hearing this, I guess it dawned on JV that he was wasting his time trying to impress MT and told him to stick his F106/C25 up his a## and stormed off.

Im not sure his loss will be felt greatly in the team, he wasnt everybodys cup of tea, but Kubica is well liked.

I know the JVians are hurting, but is that a reason not to give RK a chance?

Lets wait and see what happens with JV, RK and BMW, and then look back and decide if it was the right decision for all....

last year itself i knew jv wouldnt be retained(from the way mt praised nick)..i wish jv were driving williams atleast, any team below is not worth trying, he better be off singing rather than driving a car that isstruggling to finish a race. but RK is a realy fast!

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Currently, I would say it's a wash between them. Very close. That being said, over their entire careers, I would rank JV as the tougher, smarter, braver and faster of the two*. Remember that Jacques is past his 'peak' and Nick is still running at or near his 'peak'.

*Here's my reasons for listing these:

Tougher: In JV's championship-winning year, he and Clear were not only battling the other drivers, but also Patrick Head. Patrick was throwing his whole will towards Frentzen and shafting Jacques in the process. Only by sheer rebellion and mental toughness did Jacques win that battle with Head by soundly beating him and Frentzen. I find it hard to believe that Nick would do the same in Jacques' place.

Smarter: Numerous race engineers, from Honda to Renault, to even Nick himself have attested to Jacques' car set-up abilities. From the fact that Nick learned 'alot' from Jacques, I can assume he [JV] is the smarter of the two.

Braver: This is obvious. Nick has called oval-racing dangerous in the past and has said he doesn't want to try it. Jacques has won a Championship on ovals. His big balls are well-known and well-documented in every series he's raced in. I would have to hunt a longish time to find equal demonstrations of Nick's bravery.

Faster: Purely intuitive for me. The stats Bajo brings up are valid and shows them about even, with JV pulling ahead, but there simply is no real way to answer this by numbers alone. Looking at both careers, I would have to say that what Jacques achieved, for me, marks him as 'faster'.

Edited by Autumnpuma

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JV is 35, is not a team player as has been proved by the fact that he chose to fork out of his own pocket for a different tyre to that recommended by the team. Regardless of whether he was proved right or wrong, trying to get one up on your managers is always going to lead to animosity - it is the mechanics of social psychology - BMW were therefore within their rights to look to a future sans the maverick JV.

I think that forking out his own money for the better tyre would prove he is a team-player. As for the rest of it, are you advocating enforced mediocrity as a work-ethic for the sake of 'getting along'? This mentality is not worthy of you, or any human short of a cubicle-worker...

It is also mooted on here that JV has invariably been proved right when he forces his view/approach on a team. Try, if you can, to visualise a junior employee within your own company that had the same approach to problem solving. The more that individual proved you wrong, the more you would hate him/her. Human beings dont like being proved wrong. An individual may win in the short term, but a team will always win in the long run.

I am of the opinion that perception is reality - If JV is perceived by those that work with him as a disruptive, self centred individual, I am inclined to take their word over that of fanatical JV supporters.

You admit Jacques has been proved right on a number of occasions. That's good of you. You go on, however, to state that in being right, he was actually wrong because he upset people with his correct ideas? That's a daft notion, to say the least....

I would say that BMW's good form this season has alot to do with Jacques' right (to quote you) ideas.

As a former Art Director and Production Manager, I can tell you that a team is only as good as it's individual parts. A strong member like Jacques is to be valued, not fired. If animosity in the team existed, it fell to Mario to lead his people away from it. That's what a leader does; he keeps the troops focused on the goal and the members working smoothly. I would say it was Mario that failed the team, not Jacques....

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Currently, I would say it's a wash between them. Very close. That being said, over their entire careers, I would rank JV as the tougher, smarter, braver and faster of the two*. Remember that Jacques is past his 'peak' and Nick is still running at or near his 'peak'.

*Here's my reasons for listing these:

Tougher: In JV's championship-winning year, he and Clear were not only battling the other drivers, but also Patrick Head. Patrick was throwing his whole will towards Frentzen and shafting Jacques in the process. Only by sheer rebellion and mental toughness did Jacques win that battle with Head by soundly beating him and Frentzen. I find it hard to believe that Nick would do the same in Jacques' place.

Smarter: Numerous race engineers, from Honda to Renault, to even Nick himself have attested to Jacques' car set-up abilities. From the fact that Nick learned 'alot' from Jacques, I can assume he [JV] is the smarter of the two.

Braver: This is obvious. Nick has called oval-racing dangerous in the past and has said he doesn't want to try it. Jacques has won a Championship on ovals. His big balls are well-known and well-documented in every series he's raced in. I would have to hunt a longish time to find equal demonstrations of Nick's bravery.

Faster: Purely intuitive for me. The stats Bajo brings up are valid and shows them about even, with JV pulling ahead, but there simply is no real way to answer this by numbers alone. Looking at both careers, I would have to say that what Jacques achieved, for me, marks him as 'faster'.

ultimately all these qualities are interrelated,and he demonstrated it at every race(and test) this season

as Bajo quotes ,in the last 4 races he has a 7/8 score ,this has something to do with the different type of "tyres" he was using compared to Nick,and obviously he was Smart enough to realise that,brave enough to take the risk.tough enough to battle in a team where the teammate is secure having a multi year contract ...

Edited by narain fan

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I took it for granted that JV was the better at his peak. Now though its very hard to tell.

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Over the course of a whole season it would appear that Heidfeld has the edge but only just. There have been plenty of times when JV has been faster, but Heidfeld seems to be more consistent and bringing in the points, usually a place or 2 ahead of JV

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I took it for granted that JV was the better at his peak. Now though its very hard to tell.

I agree Murray.

NH earned more points for BMW than JV did and this is surely more important than fastest laps and qualifying positions?

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I agree Murray.

NH earned more points for BMW than JV did and this is surely more important than fastest laps and qualifying positions?

I disagree. In the context of Bajo's post, we were determining who was the faster of the two. Looking at fast laps and low-fuel qualifying results is the best way to do that.

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I agree Murray.

NH earned more points for BMW than JV did and this is surely more important than fastest laps and qualifying positions?

I agree.

While JV qualified faster, in the end points make prizes.

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I agree.

While JV qualified faster, in the end points make prizes.

Thank you for agreeing, in part, that JV was faster. Points tally does not equate speed.

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I disagree. In the context of Bajo's post, we were determining who was the faster of the two. Looking at fast laps and low-fuel qualifying results is the best way to do that.

Fastest laps -

JV - 5

NH - 6

This excludes the USA GP where NH was not classified

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Fastest laps -

JV - 5

NH - 6

This excludes the USA GP where NH was not classified

Good point, Fed up. NH was, of course, caught up in the incident with JPM (and the rest)

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I’m not really interested – and I suspect MT wasn’t either – in whether JV was faster than NH or not. The crucial issue is whether NH is better than JV or not. To investigate this issue, one must talk of point-scoring, a facet of performance in which NH had the edge on his French-Canadian team-mate. I agree with Murray that this topic is very complex, (simply because NH and JV were so closely matched) and that what is required, if we are to properly illuminate the topic, is a full detailed analysis of the respective performances of NH and JV during their 12 race partnership. Not being a JV fan (save 1997) I have little inclination to do this…

A brief but fair synopsis, c21.

if you want to do a points based analysis, then JV was a bit unlucky (engine drop fiasco and blown motor at indy). At Indy he was having a great race up until his engine blew. I met his chassis engineer at a bar after the race and he was telling me how the whole team was gutted, cause based on the lap times and fuel strategy that weekend the team was looking at a comfortable 4th place or an optimistic 3rd. This would have made the points based analysis more even between JV and NH. JV was super fast at Indy...

Edited by stopkidding

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if you want to do a points based analysis, then JV was a bit unlucky (engine drop fiasco and blown motor at indy). At Indy he was having a great race up until his engine blew. I met his chassis engineer at a bar after the race and he was telling me how the whole team was gutted, cause based on the lap times and fuel strategy that weekend the team was looking at a comfortable 4th place or an optimistic 3rd. This would have made the points based analysis more even between JV and NH. JV was super fast at Indy...

:rolleyes:

Whatever!

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I completely agree that the final points tally of Nick and Jacques ultimately proves thier value to Herr Mario and BMW. To Bajo and this thread, however, it is irrelevant. I wasn't disagreeing with the concept of a points tally, but rather with it's bearing on who is actually faster.

The challenge here is to determine the faster of the two, and I believe Bajo's numbers, and his extrapolation of them, are correct.

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Jacques Villeneuve is slower than Nick Heidfeld.

5-2 on all the races they both finished to Nick. Here is both of their seasons up to Germany explained.

Bahrain

Nick Heidfeld - 12th

Jacques Villeueuve - DNF (engine)

Malaysia

Jacques Villeueuve - 7th

Nick Heidfeld - DNF (engine) >>> Nick was running 4th

Australia

Nick Heidfeld - 4th

Jacques Villeueuve - 6th

San Marino

Jacques Villeueuve - 12th

Nick Heidfeld - 13th

Europe

Jacques Villeueuve - 8th

Nick Heidfeld - 13th

Spain

Nick Heidfeld - 8th

Jacques Villeueuve - 12th

Monaco

Nick Heidfeld - 7th

Jacques Villeueuve - 14th

Britain

Nick Heidfeld - 7th >>> Nick was running 4th until engine cut out I think in pits.

Jacques Villeueuve - 12th

Canada

Nick Heidfeld - 7th

Jacques Villeueuve - DNF (accident) >>> Jacques was positioned behind Nick for the whole race.

United States

Nick Heidfeld - DNF (first corner incident)

Jacques Villeueuve - DNF (engine)

France

Nick Heidfeld - 8th

Jacques Villeueuve - 11th

Germany

Nick Heidfeld - DNF (brakes) >>> Brake failure after being shunted by teamate

Jacques Villeueuve - DNF (accident)

Now surely this is based on positions and it has been judged fairly to be 5-2. Nick is younger, quicker and a future race winner. He's proven to be a fantastic driver in Monaco 2005 with that brilliant move on Fernando Alonso out of the tunnel and claming pole position at the European GP also in 2005. He also had a podium in Brazil 2001 which was only his second season in Formula 1.

Jacques on the other hand has made mistakes and only been positioned ahead of Heidfeld twice when both completed the race. His shunt into the back of Nick in Germany self inflicted his accident later I believe and if I didn't then that was pure driver error.

The statistics above may have been put up as just numbers but this is a bigger picture of what both their seasons were like proving Jacques is slower than Nick.

Edited by schumi13

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Good post Schumi13. This is exactly the kind of analysis I want to see. Tbh I can't remember the details as well as you so lets see what the JV fans make of it. Combined with their whining analysis we should finally be able to determine how Jacques and Nick did.

['Puma's point, which is a fair one, is not the most interesting to me. Also its a bit more complicated than you're letting on. "Fast" can mean over a race distance or could be interpreted loosely to simply mean best. Also its not clear that the current quali system is measuring true speed.]

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Good post Schumi13. This is exactly the kind of analysis I want to see. Tbh I can't remember the details as well as you so lets see what the JV fans make of it. Combined with their whining analysis we should finally be able to determine how Jacques and Nick did.

['Puma's point, which is a fair one, is not the most interesting to me. Also its a bit more complicated than you're letting on. "Fast" can mean over a race distance or could be interpreted loosely to simply mean best. Also its not clear that the current quali system is measuring true speed.]

Thanks Murray. (sorry don't know your real name) Yes I would like to also hear from the JV fans as I haven't paid great attention to him this season so there may be more italic bits to add to Jacques.

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I completely agree that the final points tally of Nick and Jacques ultimately proves thier value to Herr Mario and BMW. To Bajo and this thread, however, it is irrelevant. I wasn't disagreeing with the concept of a points tally, but rather with it's bearing on who is actually faster.

The challenge here is to determine the faster of the two, and I believe Bajo's numbers, and his extrapolation of them, are correct.

you might want to look at the testing record for this season. it shows JV being faster consistently. I think pitpass should still have it

Edited by stopkidding

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Schumi13's post was well done. :thbup: I always approve of good research. In looking at that post, in addition to Bajo's numbers, I get the impression that Nick, as a complete package, was faster than Jacques, but only just.

I'm willing to let the matter drop with that.

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Jacques Villeneuve is slower than Nick Heidfeld.

5-2 on all the races they both finished to Nick. Here is both of their seasons up to Germany explained.

Bahrain

Nick Heidfeld - 12th

Jacques Villeueuve - DNF (engine)

you fail to mention that JV was running stronger than nick
Malaysia

Jacques Villeueuve - 7th

Nick Heidfeld - DNF (engine) >>> Nick was running 4th

Australia

Nick Heidfeld - 4th

Jacques Villeueuve - 6th

you fail to mention JV started 19th due to engine failure
San Marino

Jacques Villeueuve - 12th

Nick Heidfeld - 13th

Europe

Jacques Villeueuve - 8th

Nick Heidfeld - 13th

Spain

Nick Heidfeld - 8th

Jacques Villeueuve - 12th

*cough* *cough
Monaco

Nick Heidfeld - 7th

Jacques Villeueuve - 14th

Britain

Nick Heidfeld - 7th >>> Nick was running 4th until engine cut out I think in pits.

Jacques Villeueuve - 12th

Canada

Nick Heidfeld - 7th

Jacques Villeueuve - DNF (accident) >>> Jacques was positioned behind Nick for the whole race.

are you serious ,did you even watch the races,do the other members in this thread who have showered their praises even read your posts

United States

Nick Heidfeld - DNF (first corner incident)

Jacques Villeueuve - DNF (engine)

again you fail to mention JV would have finished 4th

France

Nick Heidfeld - 8th

Jacques Villeueuve - 11th

Germany

Nick Heidfeld - DNF (brakes) >>> Brake failure after being shunted by teamate

Jacques Villeueuve - DNF (accident)

no,DNF for both because of the incident on lap 1

Now surely this is based on positions and it has been judged fairly to be 5-2. Nick is younger, quicker and a future race winner. He's proven to be a fantastic driver in Monaco 2005 with that brilliant move on Fernando Alonso out of the tunnel and claming pole position at the European GP also in 2005. He also had a podium in Brazil 2001 which was only his second season in Formula 1.

Jacques on the other hand has made mistakes and only been positioned ahead of Heidfeld twice when both completed the race. His shunt into the back of Nick in Germany self inflicted his accident later I believe and if I didn't then that was pure driver error.

The statistics above may have been put up as just numbers but this is a bigger picture of what both their seasons were like proving Jacques is slower than Nick.

Subjective BS Edited by narain fan

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Yeah, he was well behind on points and much of that was due to his own impetuousity, eg the Canadain GP, but it was also partly down to his equipment suffering worse reliabilty in comparison to the German's. How much of an effect did this have? I'm not sure but I'm willing to do the analysis if need be.
I say JV had the slight edge on speed over Nick, but only just. I'd say they were one of the most even pairing on the grid up until Hungary. As for JV's points situation, JV's screwed up at times, but at other times the machinery has let him down. Whilst Nick has lost points through unreliability as well, I believe JV has lost more and the gap would be much less.
Do we actually know why he was dropped?

Not sure, but my guess is your argument of his age and them wanting to look long term. Add to that Mario never really wanted JV there in the first place

If JV is perceived by those that work with him as a disruptive, self centred individual, I am inclined to take their word over that of fanatical JV supporters.
The only one who complained was Richards. I never read any of his other bosses complain of such thing, except for Patrick, but that's because JV insisted on using his own setups over Patricks, those same setups that worked so well for Frentzen.
JV was a maverick and always provided some interest and excitement. I wonder what he will do now

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Ok I apologise to those JV fans as I said I didn't follow his season as much as I would of liked to honestly so I didn't know all the facts there. I still think Nick was better though and JV is a bit of an arrogant person outside F1. He's quite a nice person when he's knows he's got a drive and is driving though. I met him at the BMW Sauber Demo in Hyde Park, London earlier in the year. Anyway sorry again.

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