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JV Talking Too Much And Trying To Show Off

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This thread like JV should be history, he's gone, a 2 year flash of light who's then candle burned out, so long baggy pants a legend in your own mind.......................

Edited by pumpdoc

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This thread like JV should be history, he's gone, a 2 year flash of light who's then candle burned out, so long baggy pants a legend in your own mind.......................

I

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This thread like JV should be history, he's gone, a 2 year flash of light who's then candle burned out, so long baggy pants a legend in your own mind.......................

:clap3:

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:clap3:

Yes :clap3: for the only driver that could brake the antisportive tactics of Scummi, he is maybe gone, but that championship will stay forever...(and the hate of Scummi lovers too).

long life Jaques!

A toast for you.

97villeneuve.jpg

_39414980_champion_gi_200x245.jpg

93053_clout.jpg

History and a true legend with all of the records, not a 2 year flash in the pan................

yeah yeah, whatever...

Please Scummi go...

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Yes :clap3: for the only driver that could brake the antisportive tactics of Scummi, he is maybe gone, but that championship will stay forever...(and the hate of Scummi lovers too).

long life Jaques!

A toast for you.

_39414980_champion_gi_200x245.jpg

Indeed.... Cheers JV :thbup:

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Yes :clap3: for the only driver that could brake the antisportive tactics of Scummi, he is maybe gone, but that championship will stay forever...(and the hate of Scummi lovers too).

long life Jaques!

A toast for you.

very dramatic post ecap...

been watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy lately... :P

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Yes :clap3: for the only driver that could brake the antisportive tactics of Scummi, he is maybe gone, but that championship will stay forever...(and the hate of Scummi lovers too).

long life Jaques!

A toast for you.

yeah yeah, whatever...

Please Scummi go...

Don't be bitter

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This thread like JV should be history, he's gone, a 2 year flash of light who's then candle burned out, so long baggy pants a legend in your own mind.......................

You should become a comedian Bruce. You crack me up with your constant jokes :lol:

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Flavio Briatore felt Villeneuve would be worth a gamble. Although vowing to help Renault achieve second place in the constructors championship (ahead of his former team BAR), Villeneuve failed to score a single point, unable to finish any of his races on the lead lap;Jacques admitted that the enforced lay-off had cost him vital seat time. With the cars so much faster than in 2003 he found it difficult to adapt and with Fernando Alonso as team-mate his task was made all the more difficult. The young Spaniard was naturally much faster. Just before his 3-race Renault comeback, Villeneuve signed a two-year contract to drive for Sauber, starting in 2005.

You tell me how this refutes anything I said. Fisi's deal to jump in the 05 Renault seat was announced in late July 2004... see this article for your reference: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/3928899.stm.

Trulli then p**sed off Flav by yapping too much and was distracting the team from the championship battle not to mention his failure to score a single point since the French Grand Prix in early July. Flav clearly thought his chances to win the WCC with JV were better than with Trulli otherwise he would not have pulled the trigger. So indeed, the JV move was a gamble and an experiment, but not an invitation to compete for the 05 seat. -- Alonso and Fisi were locked down, just like I said.

And yes he was miles off Alonso points wise, but lapping very close to him in some stints, especially in Brazil. And I paralleled this to Rubinho's disastrous first few races at BAR to show just how easy it is to switch teams and match the incumbent driver's pace. And RB had the luxury of a full offseason of testing with BAR and was not thrust into action after a sabbatical.

But hey, lets see what Flav and Pat had to say:

"Jacques succeeded with a difficult challenge" - Flav after China

"Jacques had settled in by the end of the race and I am sure he can pose a threat to our competitors in Suzuka" - Pat after China

JV (9th) outqualified Alonso (11th) in the wet in Japan, but struggled with understeer during the race:

"Jacques struggled with significant amounts of understeer, owing to the lack of time we had to set up the car, and that penalised him in the race" - Pat after Japan

In Brazil - Jacques' fastest lap (1:12.210) was less than a tenth off Fernando's (1:12.118).

"Jacques also did a solid job and I don't think his final position reflects his true pace." - Flav after Brazil

"As for Jacques, his speed increased throughout the race and his final stint was extremely competitive. It has been a pleasure to work with him and we wish him well at Sauber" - Pat after Brazil

So all in all -- call it a gamble, experiment, whatever... the idea that JV did not work well within the team (as was suggested by other posters many times) is simply not true. And according to people in the know he did a GOOD job in RELATIVE terms contrary to popular belief on this BB.

At the end of 2001 a major managerial reshuffle took place. Villeneuve's friend and manager Pollock was sacked, Prodrive boss David Richards taking over. From this point on, Villeneuve felt less comfortable at the team. 2002 was a poor year, with the team slipping backwards in terms of pace. Points were scarce and it was not until the middle of the year that Villeneuve scored any, a fourth at Silverstone his best result in 2002. With one year left to run on his contract Villeneuve turned down a lucrative offer to spend a season racing in CART before returning to BAR for 2004 and 2005. Instead he decided that he would see out his present deal in the hope of landing a role at another grand prix team the following year. Bitter public rows between himself and Richards over salary soured the relationship further. 2003 saw Villeneuve come under harsh media criticism for being regularly outpaced by his younger (and less experienced) teammate, Jenson Button. Many critics also questioned Villeneuve's reported $19 million annual salary, given that he scored a meager six championship points that year

Again, this does NOTHING to refute anything I said... and if you want to allude to a reported contract as ammunition that is probably one of the worst choices you could make. How the heck do you know what was in that contract in terms of various clauses, stipulations, obligations... clearly you don't, and neither do many people save those involved in the actual contracting process (assuming there even was one... this is largely speculation). For all you know, JV may have had to win the CART title to trigger the two years at BAR... unlikely I know, but I'm just making a point. :) And this doesn't even take into account the insulting nature of the offer even if it were true -- how many WDC's do you think would accept such a deal? CART is clearly an inferior series... if DR truly wanted JV to take a pay cut and stay long term at BAR there were much better ways of going about, and IF it were genuine interest it probably would have happened. BAR was CP and JV's dream -- do you honestly not feel he would have wanted to stick it out to see the fruits of their labour if it were feasible?

Your article even mentions JV's relationship with CP, the feuding with DR, etc. The political connotations were vast and complex. And again you have done little to refute my corporate analogy. JV was from the old regime, loyal to the old boss, a personal friend... is that the kind of person the new boss wants in the company, working with his employees, sharing ideas with, reminiscing about how things used to be under CP, creating divergent divisions and lines of loyalty? If you would cease to be so blindly cynical for a minute you could possibly appreciate the logic behind this argument. F1 is certainly not devoid of such political jockeying.

JV's critical mistake that year was to let everything around him distract him and take shots at Button before even one race. In hindsight, he should have shut up and driven his a## off all year and the rest of it (a competitive ride in 04) would have had a higher probability of falling into place. Getted killed by Button on the track he planted seeds of doubt as to his abilities into the minds of people who just 2 years before were fighting to pull him away from BAR. And looking back, this was the beginning of the end for JV. But hindsight is 20-20, and this was much easier said than done when his mentor was so unceremoniously thrown into the gutter.

I have to run, but will shortly respond to your (Wikipedia's) comments on 2005 at Sauber.

Edited by Vinsane

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This thread like JV should be history, he's gone, a 2 year flash of light who's then candle burned out, so long baggy pants a legend in your own mind.......................
Don't be bitter

who is bitter bruce,what is "flash in the pan about '97) should JV had listened to PH ,who would have actually guided him to a comfortable win in the ever so dominant car,just like he guided monty in '03 or for that matter HHF in '97

oh wait i see ur logic

. IYO( in ur opinion) , JV only managing to outscore his multi-seasoned Williams teammate (Damon Hill) during the second half of his rookie season - in a car designed around Hill - and taking the fight for the WDC down to the final race (but losing it) were clearly the early signs that JV was a flash in the pan .

As for '97, I also think his WDC was almost an embarrassment and a flash in the pan . The way you see it, Frentzen (a guy with the edge on MS prior to F1 and a guy who went on to score wins/poles at Jordan) was able to get everything out of the FW19, and in the process of making JV look flash in the pan , HHF proved to the world that the FW19 was the best F1 car ever built.

Wins: JV = 7 ----- HHF = 1 (when JV had a gearbox failure at Imola)

Poles: JV = 10 ----- HHF = 1

Points: JV = 81 ----- HHF = 42

- JV actually would've had 8 wins and 89-pts if not for his Suzuka yellow flag DQ and waving the McLaren's by at Jerez.

DNF's: JV = 5 + 1 DQ ----- HHF = 5

Standings: JV = WDC ---- HHF = 3rd (36pts behind MS/Ferrari and only 6pts ahead of Coulthard/McLaren and Alesi/Benetton)

What a flash in the pan win ...

and the biggest flash in the pan was the link Ulrik posted in the other thread,wasnt it

Edited by narain fan

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This is exactly what I mean about you JV supporters, you are sometimes blind to facts :blink:

The article clearly states that JV goes on to recover, but he WAS the slowest Michellin driver for the first 3 races - Fact!

If you follow F1 you will also know that there were rumours that Sauber wanted him replaced, this is not news. It was a good job JV signed his Sauber contract before his Renault drive.

You are a poor scientist. A fact taken out of context is useless, and conclusions drawn from said 'fact' are unreliable. The Wiki entry has statistical facts, but wrong conclusions and glaring omissions.

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You are a poor scientist. A fact taken out of context is useless, and conclusions drawn from said 'fact' are unreliable. The Wiki entry has statistical facts, but wrong conclusions and glaring omissions.

Anyone can enter information in Wiki - this is an advantage and a disadvantage as well. When there are people with half baked knowledge and strong bias who enter information it can only be tainted. better to ignore such information. Very often the information can be wrong

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You are a poor scientist. A fact taken out of context is useless, and conclusions drawn from said 'fact' are unreliable. The Wiki entry has statistical facts, but wrong conclusions and glaring omissions.

You are right in your praise for Vinsane, he/she at least has the ability to respond with his/her own conclusion to information supplied on Wiki - You do not have that ability so choose to attack Wiki without providing your own conclusions or highlighting where the Wiki information is wrong or inconsistent.

Just out of interest, how long have you been watching F1 :unsure:

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So indeed, the JV move was a gamble and an experiment, but not an invitation to compete for the 05 seat

I agree as JV signed his Sauber contract before his stint at Renault.

How the heck do you know what was in that contract in terms of various clauses, stipulations, obligations
David Richards, in his attempt at a character assassination of JV, leaked the info to the press so as to portray JV as a self centred individual. JV did not refute any of the claims. Whilst I accept that this is not definitive proof, f1 journalists usually have the correct information
And again you have done little to refute my corporate analogy. JV was from the old regime, loyal to the old boss, a personal friend... is that the kind of person the new boss wants in the company, working with his employees, sharing ideas with, reminiscing about how things used to be under CP, creating divergent divisions and lines of loyalty? If you would cease to be so blindly cynical for a minute you could possibly appreciate the logic behind this argument. F1 is certainly not devoid of such political jockeying

I am going by what was reported in the press at the time. Yes JV was a reminder of a culture of excess and poor performance that characterised BAR before the appointment of DR, however the major cause of conflict was JV's reported $19m salary. DR said on numerous occasions that a team like BAR would be better served investing a salary of that size into the team rather than paying it to a driver who could only peform as well as the car. JV, being the stubborn person he is, refused to take a pay cut and his career suffered as a result.

I am convinced that if JV had agreed to the proposal of 1 year Cart followed by 2 years BAR he would have taken the moral high ground and shown that he had the team's interests at heart. This is just my opinion based on the mood at the time.

JV's critical mistake that year was to let everything around him distract him and take shots at Button before even one race. In hindsight, he should have shut up and driven his a## off all year and the rest of it (a competitive ride in 04) would have had a higher probability of falling into place. Getted killed by Button on the track he planted seeds of doubt as to his abilities into the minds of people who just 2 years before were fighting to pull him away from BAR. And looking back, this was the beginning of the end for JV. But hindsight is 20-20, and this was much easier said than done when his mentor was so unceremoniously thrown into the gutter

Very honest and very true :thbup:

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Yes JV was a reminder of a culture of excess and poor performance that characterised BAR before the appointment of DR, however the major cause of conflict was JV's reported $19m salary.
DR wsa not wrong about that ...

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You are right in your praise for Vinsane, he/she at least has the ability to respond with his/her own conclusion to information supplied on Wiki - You do not have that ability so choose to attack Wiki without providing your own conclusions or highlighting where the Wiki information is wrong or inconsistent.

Just out of interest, how long have you been watching F1 :unsure:

I have many times responded in length to questions (do a search on my posts). I don't have the patience for it anymore as the only reward I get is idiotic commentary. I've been watching F1 since '79 (probably before you were born...).

You are still a poor scientist relying on 'facts' taken without context in a vain attempt to make your arguments look credible. This will be true about your statements regardless of any response from me.

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I have many times responded in length to questions (do a search on my posts). I don't have the patience for it anymore as the only reward I get is idiotic commentary. I've been watching F1 since '79 (probably before you were born...).

You are still a poor scientist relying on 'facts' taken without context in a vain attempt to make your arguments look credible. This will be true about your statements regardless of any response from me.

Whatever mate!

I've decided that you're full of sh!t and think you know everything on matters F1. You are a [email protected] and have that common American attitude of looking down on ppl.

From now on you are on ignore my friend.

:the_finger:

Edited by Fed up

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Whatever mate!

I've decided that you're full of sh!t and think you know everything on matters F1. You are a [email protected] and have that common American attitude of looking down on ppl.

From now on you are on ignore my friend.

:the_finger:

Your post is an example of the sort that have most-likely caused all of the intelligent posters to leave this forum. If I seem like I know it all, it's because I probably know more than you. Other posters like Cav, monza, pumpdoc and narain_fan have been able to prove me wrong quite often. You, sir, are not capable of it, and I'm sorry if that upsets you.

You have been given convincing proofs in this thread about JV that you refuse to acknowledge. That is not a lack in anyone but yourself.

And for the record, I don't look down on you because I'm American; I look down on your posts because they show a lack of thought.

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:wub: lets get married me lady, then we can watch the sun setting on the straights of monza :whistling:

sorry a very late reply - but hey if you keep mentioning the Tifosi word ill be all yours - lets get married at Monza then - what more can you ask for (well except JV not being your best man :naughty: )

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From now on you are on ignore my friend.

A shame, Puma is one of the best posters here...but I think you are just fed up.

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A shame, Puma is one of the best posters here...but I think you are just fed up.

It's funny isn't it, i end up kind of empathizing with both camps a little here.....

Autumnpuma has proven to be one of the most insightful and intelligent posters here (in my opinion and i haven't been here that long). That puts some peoples noses out of joint sometimes because they are not capable of reasoned debate with him. This is either because a lack of experience with the sport, an inability to be objective or seeing a difference of opinion as some sort of personal attack.

Everyone likes to have their say and have their opinion counted. This is where i empathize with the likes of, and not specifically, Fedup; a witty poster with worthwhile contributions. Sometimes (and i have done it myself) one can get a bit upset if your opinion is continuously contended. I think though it is best to try and remain objective and question the motives of the person who is questioning you. In this case, i believe, Autumnpuma is (by his own admission) someone who will fight to the death to prove he is right if he believes it to be true. This is not because he has issues, but because he is passionate about our sport.

We will always disagree and slag each other off here, that's whycome here. If we all typed 'agreed' all the time it might boost our post numbers but it would get feckin' boring.

So, because i have had the cheek to butt my nose in where i shouldn't, i will go one step further and request that Fedup reconciles with Autumnpuma so that we can get back to doing what you two do best. DEBATE!

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Ok, this is going to be a big one, but I cna't belive the tripe I am reading here.

All these "statements" are being ripped out of the F1 Racing interview, you know that the journalists will try and get something interesting for their magazine.

Paris hilton is always useful when youi want to sell stupid tabloid magazines. That does say a lot about Paris hilton too though doesn't it?

Besides I don't see any way that JV is slamming Kubica. All he is saying is that they guy is a question mark. He is very young, inexperienced so no one will really know with confidence that he is a good racer.

At least he is a question mark, at least there is hope that he may win races some day. BMW have seen him drive against Villeneuve all year, they will know. And he probably won't be a disruptive influence in the team.

I do not doubt that MS is a fantastic driver and team builder, but he has brought disrepute into F1.

Which of the most successful drivers in F1 have been 'clean' in that sense? Fangio? Prost? Senna? Let us take some other sport. Zidane? Figo? Maradona? Shane Warne? That druggie who just won the Tour de France? John McEnroe? Take any contact sport an you'll have these issues. Michael has never knowingly cheated, the most he may have done is used unfair tactics that he has been punished for.

I mean blatanly "parking" at Monaco, and the other various incidents should indicate to people the kind of man he is.

I am, not convinced that was deliberate, and if it was it is on par with Kimi in Hockenheim last year - hardly that big a deal.

He cares nothing for the sport, or anyone else. All he cares about is winning at all costs, even if it resorts to cheating.

Michael has been an active member of the GPDA for ages and has been primarily responsible for most that it has accomplished, his existence has been immensely beneficial to the sport, whether he cares for it enough to become an ambassador after retirement is irrelevant. What have JV ever done for the sport?

In regards to JV saying he knows how to win races, ALL drivers say it when they are looking for a job.

Yes, sounds a bit pitiful when he is talking about ancient history though.

:lol: even Jenson is gonna say when he's looking for his next ride :lol:

Jenson has a long term deal with a team that is committed to the sport, funny how Honda hard Honda tried to get 'no race wins' Button, yet easily discarded some who 'knows how to win.'

The reason a lot us JV fans support the guy, is because he is honest, has integrity and will say it like it is. Sometimes he can be a bit blunt, but we love him all the more for it.

Do you work for a company? Go set up a blog in your name and criticize your company all the time. You'll get fired, but at least you have integrity. JV fans think he is honest because they have internalised his 'everyone against me' thought process. He should have chosen an individual sport, but I guess when he was getting a free ride because of his father, he couldn't refuse.

I cannot believe what passes for intelligence these days... and is praised for being "well said" no less.

What would you know about intelligence?

Yes, clearly Ferrari's incredible run and BAR's disastrous failure can be attributed entirely to Schumi and JV respectively. I give you an A+ for such a stunning thesis that has volumes of foolproof evidence backing it up. JV should have designed, built, raced, modified, funded, managed, and every other imaginable adjective that could be used within the context of an F1 team and thus the finger for the BAR debacle should be pointed his way... :rolleyes:

Not entirely, but the contrast is clear isn't it? Add to that how people like Brawn and Byrne chose to follow him. JV left a perfectly good team, and if what JV fans say is true turned down perfectly good offers, to go to BAR, some may say purely for the money. D=Funny how well the team has done since JV left isn't it? Maybe it's a coincidence, may it isn't, I leave people to draw their own conclusions.

As for the 'firings' you mention I will simply respond with two sets of initials: DR and MT and let you think about it. And here's another hint for you while I'm in my giving mood... neither of these gentlemen were particularly happy to have JV. They both 'inherited' him and like 99% of GMs in pro sports wanted to wipe the slate and build their own team.

If they had inherited Michael they would have done their darndest to keep him. 'nuff said.

The Renault 'stint' which you so aptly termed a 'career' -- see Rubens this year at BAR for the first 4 or 5 races as an example of how easy it is to switch cars and perform at your peak.

Or rather as an example of what a rubbish driver Rubens is, and you consider JV to be similarly mediocre?

He was embarassingly off Jens' pace and has now seemed to find his way.

He still is well off pace, when would JV have found his way, one and a half years in Sauber, being beaten by the unfancied Massa and then Heidfeld? JV fans have excuses for everything, for dragging the 97 championship to the end due to his own incompetence, for having a miserable time at BAR being thrashed by a rookie who has now built the team around him, what JV should have done or could have if he was good enough, forbeing beaten by Massa and then Heidfeld. How many races did it take Kubeetza to 'perform at his peak'? If JV wasn't race fit when he came to Renault whose fault is it, why do you blame his lack of comitment on others?

As for winning with the 'best' car on the grid... perhaps JV should apologize for not winning in a Minardi. You name me ONE driver not named Gilles who has taken a car that by all accounts was incapable of winning races and won races consistently (i.e. more than once or twice) with it.

Ferrari, 1996, 97 (just as an example, there are plenty)

You put Schumi in JV's boots at BAR and they would still never have won a championship.

We put button in his boots, and he's already won a race.

F1 is MUCH more team-oriented than 99% of sporting ventures

Yup, and JV is not a team player.

If you want to argue that Schumi would have fared markedly better than JV in the same cars between 98-06 then I will let you make that claim and have your fellow Schumi-ists laud praise on your genius. I don't buy it.

Umm let's see. Button did betterin the same car. Masa, who is being outclassed by Michael this year did better, Heidfeld did better, yet you somehow contend that Michael would not have done better :lol:

Points are important no doubt... you are talking about a WDC who scored more points than anyone. There are a number of mitigating factors that should curb one's use of points as an evaluator of results.

So all results are inadmissible as evidence when we are comparing drivers - points, wins, championships, podiums, fastest laps etc.

What is admissible? Ah yes, JV's word. :rolleyes:

I think personally points are much more commensurate to performance for top of the grid teams than bottom feeders who are subject to mechanical gremlins and who bank on teams in front of them failing to score points.

Which particular year are you applying this excuse to :unsure: All of them? :rolleyes:

In this environment one lucky race can score you a fluke 3rd-6th and occasionally earned 7th-8th place. Thus if your teammate has a fortunate race (i.e. NH last race) he scores 6 points

How was Nick's race more fortunate than Kubeetza?

Massa also owned him in the first half of 05,

Part of his 'settling in period I presume? Oh no, that was with Renault the year before. Wonder what the problem wasthen :usure:

but once JV got comfortable with the car

he punted Massa of the track..

he was on par and marginally better the rest of the year.

So after settling in with Renault, and for half an year with BMW, he was 'on par or marginally better' than Massa? And then he needed to settle in again for the next year I guess, and poor JV was sacked from the team before he could setle in. boo hoo.

Same thing with Nick, he has been on par or marginally better.

Nickha been better, period.

And quite honestly, JV now is not what he was in his prime and neither is Schumi - age and technical advances will make a driver's skills obsolete to some extent.

And yet Schumi is roundly thrashing the same driver who beat JV last year, Kimi and Alonso are doing the same to their teammates, but no Jv sucks so driver skills must be obsolete.

Honestly, I hate making these long posts and wish I did not have to... it just irks the Sh#te out of me reading such mindless crap that bashes a driver

Yes, I know what oyu are speaking of, just went through it myself.

who you clearly have no appreciation for and whose long-standing 'battle' with your golden boy has skewed your vision beyond repair.

Oh the irony :rolleyes2:

Schumi is an elite driver, and JV showed he was as well when given the opportunity.

Schumi has been an 'elite driver' for at least 13 years now, JV was an 'elite driver' for what one year?

He is out of F1 and that should be satisfaction enough

Indeed it is :D And it seems from yesterday's practice that he has made way for another worthy young driver.

Edited by cavallino

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And as for JV's lack of 'teamwork' why don't you talk to Giampaolo D'allara and Jock Clear to see what they think, or maybe Frank, Peter, Flav, Geoff, Pat... these men all seemed to speak nothing but praise for Jacques' ability

And yet hav shown no interest in giving him a drive, case closed.

Unless there are major changes with the BMW operation they are destined for mediocrity IMHO much like their association with Williams.

They have done excellently for a new team, and now the main disruptive influence in their team is gone, they can go far.

Alonso and Fisi were locked down for the next year, simple as that. JV was to Trulli what Kubica is to JV right now.

Hmm, Red Bull chose DC. Dee Cee, the bridesmaid forever, instead of a 'proven race winner' and ex World Champion.

And it was also great publicity for Renault at the time as well.

Ah yes. The name. Brings back memories. Of a great driver. Who's dead now unfortunately :(

Frank wanted desperately to keep him and this is no secret at all.

And yet what does he do now? Sign Alexander Wurz.

At the end of the day the CP link was just too strong and of course to some degree money talks and BS walks -- JV had 20+ million reasons to leave Williams waiting for him at BAR.

Poor judgement, as he has shown innumerable times in his career.

What would YOU do?

Offer to drive for Ferrari for free, sponsorship deals would let me survive quite nicely, noone needs that much money. :D

Why no one wants him is a complex combination of many factors... for instance this new fetish with taking young, unproven, cheap drivers and gambling on finding the 'next one'.

The young unproven cheap driver drove an excellent race, in the rain first up. Jv's great deeds in rain affected races wouldn't even cover up his bald spot.

And naturally JV, at 35 years old and no wins in 10 years is just not that attractive a package any more.

Well he is ugly and short since you bought it up, though I would have kept criticism of his phydical appearance out of this.

And oh yeah, a WDC and WCC resulted from JV/Williams relationship, so don't know what you're getting at there.
Which Head himself said JV made rather a meal of.

Let me paint a little picture for you with regards to BAR... you just don't seem to get this one. Let's say you're working at a big company and have a great relationship with the CEO who sees you as something of a protege and driving force behind the company. Suddenly this CEO gets canned and a new one arrives on the scene. This new guy naturally wants to distance himself as much as possible with the 'old regime' and build a new success story his way under his rules and with his vision.

Why wasn't Button fired then?

Uh huh... you incessantly trash the guy, his abilities, his validity as a world champion, but you wish him all the best.

I don't. I wish him the very worst in life. Hope he ends up in NASCAR.

You puzzle me here :blink: Vinsane has not said anything that hasn't been debated at length on this BB over the past year or so.

Indeed, it's the same old yarn of JV lovers, we have heard it a million times.

long life Jaques!

A toast for you.

hangover-14.jpg

Trulli then p**sed off Flav by yapping too much

Irony irony I have seen so much of it today -_-

Flav clearly thought his chances to win the WCC with JV were better than with Trulli otherwise he would not have pulled the trigger.

Where is Trulli now? Oh yes with a long term deal at Toyota. Flva's loss.

And yes he was miles off Alonso points wise, but lapping very close to him in some stints

:rolleyes2:

But hey, lets see what Flav and Pat had to say:

"Jacques succeeded with a difficult challenge" - Flav after China

"Jacques had settled in by the end of the race and I am sure he can pose a threat to our competitors in Suzuka" - Pat after China

JV (9th) outqualified Alonso (11th) in the wet in Japan, but struggled with understeer during the race:

"Jacques struggled with significant amounts of understeer, owing to the lack of time we had to set up the car, and that penalised him in the race" - Pat after Japan

In Brazil - Jacques' fastest lap (1:12.210) was less than a tenth off Fernando's (1:12.118).

"Jacques also did a solid job and I don't think his final position reflects his true pace." - Flav after Brazil

"As for Jacques, his speed increased throughout the race and his final stint was extremely competitive. It has been a pleasure to work with him and we wish him well at Sauber" - Pat after Brazil

Are you picking this from the P.R. quotes? Even when Fisi (or sometimes Alonso) has a crap race, the Renault quotes read that way. Funny why they didn't get rid of Fisi and tak him if he was so goodf an year ago. What do you expect them to say - "We sacked Trulli, but this new guy is even worse"?

And according to people in the know he did a GOOD job in RELATIVE terms contrary to popular belief on this BB.

Why does everyhitng to do with JV come with so many disclaimers? When will he do a good job, period?

CART is clearly an inferior series

Well Jv now says NASCAR is not a step down :lol: Soon he'll be driving in junior 3 and saying that is not a step down.

you have done little to refute my corporate analogy.

They wouldn't have fired Michael.......

JV's critical mistake that year was to let everything around him distract him and take shots at Button before even one race. In hindsight, he should have shut up and driven his a## off all year and the rest of it (a competitive ride in 04) would have had a higher probability of falling into place. Getted killed by Button on the track he planted seeds of doubt as to his abilities into the minds of people who just 2 years before were fighting to pull him away from BAR. And looking back, this was the beginning of the end for JV. But hindsight is 20-20, and this was much easier said than done when his mentor was so unceremoniously thrown into the gutter.

If he wasn't so selfish and short sighted, he might have been in F1 in 2004. Button is clearly the better driver now, the result may not be an anomaly.

Edited by cavallino

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