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tifosi too!

Mass Dampers Is Illegal

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THE GRAVEL TRAP

The real reason JPM had to go...Part 2

According to papers released today, following the FIA Court of Appeal hearing in Paris to discuss the legality of mass dampers, it appears that McLaren were warned some time ago that due to his unique (by F1 standards) conditioning, Juan Pablo Montoya was a mass damper.

The team, seeing no performance gain in this, decided that he may as well go.

:rofl:

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I wonder if this will apply for other racing Series, as I hear, Cora Schumacher has a couple of massive "dampers" herself.

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R.I.P

Here lie the mortal remains of Alonso

No more will he overtake, no more will he speed

Mass Dampers have been ruled illegal

Now Alonso is driving a donkey instead of his steed

U're quite a bit of a character.... ^_^

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I wonder if this will apply for other racing Series, as I hear, Cora Schumacher has a couple of massive "dampers" herself.

Max is calling for a personal inspection...

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I hear half the paddock already have done so!

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Unfortunatly it's not as simple as just being a moving part so its illegal, an engine, steering system, suspension, transmission, etc. all have moving parts but they are still legal.

The way I understand it they make the car ride kurbs and bumps aggressively without losing as much mechanical grip from varying tire contact patchs, Ferrari only needed to use it on some tracks because their bridgestone tires have a stiffer construction and McLaren never had to use it because their suspension is advanced enough to give most of the effect Renault gets from their mass damper. Also it helped tire wear which was already a big issue with the Renault, McLaren being the kindest to their tires out of the Michelin runners atleast.

Now all i've heard from the FIA is that mass damper's are giving a movable aerodynamic effect. No one seems to have or been able to explain the supposed aerodynamic effect. I was hoping some clarification would come with the appeal result but nothing yet.

I can't see it degrading or improving saftey. I do see it as a cost effective performance system, something which alot of people love to see in F1 so smaller teams can perform better then their budget would let you believe. Only way Renault are going to claw back to be on equal terms with Ferrari is to have come up with a more complex and better suspension system then McLaren in the 3 week break or else to have come up with another ingenius system to replace the mass damper while staying completey under the FIA's "it's not safe"/"it's moving aero" glare of death radar for the rest of the season.

They need to get Heikki in the T car for race weekends. Soon as they spot Mad Max in the pitlane Heikki can gun it out of the garage and run the b#####d over.

from how i understand it, the reason the FIA calls it a moving Aero Part is 2 fold.

First you need to look at how it works. its pretty much a weight suspended in the nose in a spring. when a car rides over a kerb the nose bounces up, but due to inertia, the mass does not and so compreses the spring and flexes the nose back down. if the nose wants to flex down on a kerb the same thing happenes but with the mass flexing the nose up. this creates a smoother movement of the nose when hitting the kerb thus allowing air to move more efficently when taking the corner.

The FIA claims that the damper influances the wings of the nose to give an aero advantage when going over kerbs. whitch it does, it controles the movement of the wings, and the to some degree, the movement of the suspention.

now what renault is saying is that the damper's primary function is not to impact aero on corners but to allow for smoother driving in corners because along with helping aero, it reduces the movement of the suspention allowing for the smoother corner.

To that, the FIA says that even though the damper's main affect area was not the aero it still impacts it and so it is a moveable part.

to that Renault in turn tried to say that yes it moves but is ridgidly fixed onto the body at both ends. and with that i think renault sealed their fait because Ferrari and the other Flexi wing teams said the same thing about their wings but the FIA said no. so now the president is set and the FIA had to declair them illigale and thats when this all started.

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from how i understand it, the reason the FIA calls it a moving Aero Part is 2 fold.

First you need to look at how it works. its pretty much a weight suspended in the nose in a spring. when a car rides over a kerb the nose bounces up, but due to inertia, the mass does not and so compreses the spring and flexes the nose back down. if the nose wants to flex down on a kerb the same thing happenes but with the mass flexing the nose up. this creates a smoother movement of the nose when hitting the kerb thus allowing air to move more efficently when taking the corner.

The FIA claims that the damper influances the wings of the nose to give an aero advantage when going over kerbs. whitch it does, it controles the movement of the wings, and the to some degree, the movement of the suspention.

now what renault is saying is that the damper's primary function is not to impact aero on corners but to allow for smoother driving in corners because along with helping aero, it reduces the movement of the suspention allowing for the smoother corner.

To that, the FIA says that even though the damper's main affect area was not the aero it still impacts it and so it is a moveable part.

to that Renault in turn tried to say that yes it moves but is ridgidly fixed onto the body at both ends. and with that i think renault sealed their fait because Ferrari and the other Flexi wing teams said the same thing about their wings but the FIA said no. so now the president is set and the FIA had to declair them illigale and thats when this all started.

Yep pretty much spot on.

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from how i understand it, the reason the FIA calls it a moving Aero Part is 2 fold.

First you need to look at how it works. its pretty much a weight suspended in the nose in a spring. when a car rides over a kerb the nose bounces up, but due to inertia, the mass does not and so compreses the spring and flexes the nose back down. if the nose wants to flex down on a kerb the same thing happenes but with the mass flexing the nose up. this creates a smoother movement of the nose when hitting the kerb thus allowing air to move more efficently when taking the corner.

The FIA claims that the damper influances the wings of the nose to give an aero advantage when going over kerbs. whitch it does, it controles the movement of the wings, and the to some degree, the movement of the suspention.

now what renault is saying is that the damper's primary function is not to impact aero on corners but to allow for smoother driving in corners because along with helping aero, it reduces the movement of the suspention allowing for the smoother corner.

To that, the FIA says that even though the damper's main affect area was not the aero it still impacts it and so it is a moveable part.

to that Renault in turn tried to say that yes it moves but is ridgidly fixed onto the body at both ends. and with that i think renault sealed their fait because Ferrari and the other Flexi wing teams said the same thing about their wings but the FIA said no. so now the president is set and the FIA had to declair them illigale and thats when this all started.

The nose or wing dosent move independant of the chassis because of the damper...any vibration cancellation which makes air flow smoother is negligible to performance. Apparently some team were running with mass damper's in the middle of the car aswell around the fuel tank, still not a saftey harzard there or moving any wings.

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The nose or wing dosent move independant of the chassis because of the damper...any vibration cancellation which makes air flow smoother is negligible to performance. Apparently some team were running with mass damper's in the middle of the car aswell around the fuel tank, still not a saftey harzard there or moving any wings.

I read that Renault have one also in the gearbox

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From a technical point-of-view, mass dampers are not aero; they are suspension. Aero parts are those that affect the airflow. Mass dampers do not affect the airflow, they stabilize the front suspension's 'bounce'.

The FIA have argued that because they enable the front aero to work better they are a moveable aero part. With that same logic, the top and bottom wishbones (which are shaped like airfoils to reduce drag) should also fall under this ruling.

This is a case of the FIA ruling in favor of themselves.

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The FIA has ruled and it's game over! :D

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i have never pretended to be the most techinally minded and still never will but i think i vaguely understand this - obviously this changes my predictions slightly - as i do think Renault are now banjaxed

I previously predicted that Ferrari would win the Construtors - i still stick by that

I also predicted that FA (spit) would win the WDC unless a major reliability or big change in the car - well hey that has happened and oooh GOD i am excited again because i really do think that after this ruling that Renault are now beatable & obviously you could have no better man to do it than MS (my idol!!!!!!!!)

haha - weep & lose Renault - RED ALL THE WAY

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Rules are rules and must be obeyed. If you sign up for a racing series that lets the FIA govern it, then you gotta live with what they want to do. That is a separate argument.

Dispute the FIA's ruling all you like, but bear this one FACT in mind: A mass damper is a suspension item, not an aerodynamic item, despite how you interpret the technical regulations. It should not have been banned under the quoted regulation, but the regulation is worded in such a way that you COULD ban it, if you wanted to. Under the same regulation, you could also ban the upper and lower wishbone shapes because they affect the aerodynamic handling of the car (reduction in drag) and are also a 'moving' bit.

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So I guess if Renault keep showing strong the FIA will ban the V keel design they innovated? :o

Do Ferrari use that now? that would have fit the FIA's ban alot better.

VIVA GPMA! :P

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There was an army of experts on both sides and the system ended up being banned...There is nothing more to say!

That is the long and short of it :D

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That is the long and short of it :D

Yes, the rules were interpreted wrongly to include mass dampers. They are now illegal. Them's the breaks, but now everyone has got to abide by them. I don't agree with a ruling that is so obviously wrong. I wouldn't agree no matter what team got hit with it, Ferrari, Renault or even Super Aguri. A wrong rule is a wrong rule.

tifosi's comment was a way of saying 'I think the FIA experts know more than me or you, so they should be trusted'. That is not the case. The FIA are not always right and this is one of those times. Try to understand, tifosi too, the way mass dampers work and you will also see that the ruling was wrong.

But, in the end, we gotta live with it.

His doing fabulous.... Monty could'nt touch him, 2-1 up on PDLR this year, expect Kimi to slaughter PDL from now onwards...lovely stuff...

Let's say without the mass damper illegal car, Fisi is leading Alonso 1-0... :lol:

By 'slaughter' do you mean he'll run right into the back of Pedro? That seems likely. Or do you mean 'slaughter' like how Fisico has gotten 'slaughtered' by Alonso..? And I seem to remember that before a wheel nut fell off, Alonso was running pretty near the front...and Fisico was mowing the lawn...so much for your mass damper theory... :D

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Oh I understand, Steve Matchett put it rather bluntly.to paraphrase 'They are inside the bloody bodywork!!' :D I mean c'mon the driveres helmut is an aero device and it moves, hell how many times this year have you seen the Reno front wings flexing, big ****ing deal all of the wings will, or how about the Reno left side mirror it flutters like crazy but only the left side why? is it a 'movable aero device?' of course not. The FIA got it in it's craw that the mass dampers would be illegal and so it shall be, what next?

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Oh I understand, Steve Matchett put it rather bluntly.to paraphrase 'They are inside the bloody bodywork!!' :D I mean c'mon the driveres helmut is an aero device and it moves, hell how many times this year have you seen the Reno front wings flexing, big ****ing deal all of the wings will, or how about the Reno left side mirror it flutters like crazy but only the left side why? is it a 'movable aero device?' of course not. The FIA got it in it's craw that the mass dampers would be illegal and so it shall be, what next?

While you were typing this, I went back and fixed my post to address tifosi too when I said 'you need to understand how they work'. I figured you would know, Bruce, but maybe not tifosi...sorry for the sloppy communication.

Explanations about mass dampers are on every credible technical F1 website and the common theme is that they are NOT aero and the way they affect the aero is exactly like a piece of suspension would. You are right in saying that the FIA, for whatever reason, want them illegal, so they are illegal. Case closed.

The FIA are still wrong, from an engineering point-of-view. I don't recall what Matchett said, but I'd be surprised if it agreed with the FIA :D

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While you were typing this, I went back and fixed my post to address tifosi too when I said 'you need to understand how they work'. I figured you would know, Bruce, but maybe not tifosi...sorry for the sloppy communication.

Explanations about mass dampers are on every credible technical F1 website and the common theme is that they are NOT aero and the way they affect the aero is exactly like a piece of suspension would. You are right in saying that the FIA, for whatever reason, want them illegal, so they are illegal. Case closed.

The FIA are still wrong, from an engineering point-of-view. I don't recall what Matchett said, but I'd be surprised if it agreed with the FIA :D

Trust me he doesn't agree, and I'll bet you in 3 or so hours he will say it again :D

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Trust me he doesn't agree, and I'll bet you in 3 or so hours he will say it again :D

We are lucky to have Matchett. :D He loves both Ferrari and Renault, so his opinion is very fair where they are concerned.

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