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Schumacher Legend Will Be Tainted By Mistakes

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Thanks for that, it shows my memory isn't as bad as I thought...and it showed that they knew about Ayrton on the podium and that although Mika was clapping, he wasn't smiling or looking happy (neither was Larini)--it was a polite clap for the anthem. So what was M$'s reaction? He was smiling, pointing at his crew and putting his fist happily in the air.

Here's what I think: M$ is a self-absorbed guy that didn't really care about Ayrton's condition. The only thought going through his mind appeared to be 'Yay, I won!'. In the press-conference, he did a good job to look somber, but that only shows he's good at PR.

(Bruce, I tried to look for the tape I have, but living with a toddler means my stuff sometimes goes missing and is found much later in odd places...the only tapes I could find of the '94 Decade were Brazil and Japan...excellent racing, especially by Alesi and the v12 Ferrari, but not exactly what I was looking for ;) )

I'll end my part in this thread by saying that even if you take this situation out of the equation, you are still left with a Schumacher legacy tainted by controversy. He holds quite alot of records, and is probably the best all-around driver on the grid, but he will carry his many questionable exploits with him along with those records.

Given the choice, I would rather be remembered like Sir Stirling Moss, with no grand records or statistics to his name, than be remembered like Michael Schumacher will be.

No Puma, I don;t think you get. That video was not meant reinforce your point of view. The 34 sec video of Schumacher celebrating is taken completely out of context. It is a clear attempt at character assasination by some fan who doesn't stand Schumacher. It shows 2 clips each for a few seconds and presented in the manner to imply the Schumacher didn't care about the death.

Senna's Condition was unknown at the race restarted and end. So Schumacher pumping his fists was for the crowd where still cheering and waving flags. Why don't you judge that? Isnt the crowd equally human and guilty?

Second, It might have been known the Senna's condition was very serious when he stepped out of the car and went to the weigh in and then straight to the podium. During that short time it hardly surprising that true magnitude of the situation was unknown. I am not defending schumacher here, I am just not accusing him of anything.

Don't base your judgement based on a 2 second clip of him smiling. Worse things have happened in F1 before.

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Rubbish, Puma's analysis was spot on and I thank him for bringing Michael's depraved indifference to my attention - I for one, was not aware of it but now that I am, I have a different impression of Michael. Not only is he a poor sportsman, as has been amply demonstrated in this season as in past seasons, but he is a licentious degenerate as well. Were it not for his contribution to the Hurricane Katrina victims, I would be calling for his burning at the stake. How dare he celebrate on the world stage after learning of the departure of a colleague!?! It's an outrage that won't be forgotten...

Thank you for rubbishing my heart felt comments. Your fickle and changeable impression of Michael speaks volumes about your intrinsic understanding of the man, i suggest you read a few more biographies. As for your undying support and love for Autumnpuma and every word he utters, it's cute but a little tiresome.

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It might have been known the Senna's condition was very serious when he stepped out of the car and went to the weigh in and then straight to the podium. During that short time it hardly surprising that true magnitude of the situation was unknown. I am not defending schumacher here, I am just not accusing him of anything.

Williams abandoned the race...they certainly knew something...

The race was tempted to be suspended but Bennetton still wanted to race, from a certain point of view, the show must go on, but smiling and celebrating is not a good sign.

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but smiling and celebrating is not a good sign.

This accusation of a such a fundamental lack of basic humanity sickens me. Get a reality check, all of you. Think about what you're actually accusing Michael of here.

This is the sort of perverse sensationalism that only the gutter tabloids are capable of.

Williams abandoned the race...they certainly knew something...

Williams adopted the only responsible proceedure; an unascertained car failure had had catastrophic consequences. Of course they were going to abandon the race.

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To be honest, I don't remember the podium, and I haven't watched the video. I'll decide then but, having said that, I do find it hard to believe that what has been described is true. Didn't Damon Hill say that he did not know Ayrton's condition until some time after the race? I'm on the fence at the moment, and I'll not judge anyone until I know what I'm talking about. And even then I may be wrong.

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Your fickle and changeable impression of Michael speaks volumes about your intrinsic understanding of the man, i suggest you read a few more biographies.

Intrinsic understanding of the man, eh? :huh:

I have studied Michael in the same way that I have studied all things related to the sport that I love; that is, in detail. I watched the 1994 San Marino GP but for some reason I didn't catch Michael's celebrations on the podium. Seeing them now has influenced my opinion on the man as I expressed above. You state that this makes my judgement "changeable" but I would suggest to you that the only people for whom such shocking footage wouldn't alter their opinions are blind supporters, those who will support MIchael no matter what he does. You are one of these but I am not.

I respect Mike and value his opinions but to suggest that I would take up the same tune as him despite my views to the contrary is, quite frankly, ridiculous. If you find my commentary tiresome on any subject, you'd be wise to ignore it. I'm certainly not going to change my posting habits...

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To be honest, I don't remember the podium, and I haven't watched the video. I'll decide then but, having said that, I do find it hard to believe that what has been described is true. Didn't Damon Hill say that he did not know Ayrton's condition until some time after the race? I'm on the fence at the moment, and I'll not judge anyone until I know what I'm talking about. And even then I may be wrong.

Exactly, even in the press conference Michael only makes a reference to the events of the Weekend, hinting that he may have been talking about Rolands accident. The death of Senna was not known at the time because HE WAS NOT KNOWN TO BE DEAD AT THE TIME. His condition was described as critical, but he was still presumed alive!

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Intrinsic understanding of the man, eh? :huh:

the only people for whom such shocking footage wouldn't alter their opinions are blind supporters, those who will support MIchael no matter what he does. You are one of these but I am not.

You are wrong. I am the first to admit Michael's shortcomings. You are right, there are many blind supporters but please don't label me as one. I have a deep respect and admiration for his abilities and achievements but this does not brain wash me into Schumacher mania.

The footage does not alter my opinion because i clearly remeber that fateful day. It was a sickening day for us all who remember it, i'm sure you agree. Being a fan of Ayrton Senna i would have been highly sensitised to any form of inappropriate reaction on the podium. I don't remember any and all i see in this convenient little montage is a blatant attempt to distort a true and broad representation of reaction from just Michael.

I respect Mike and value his opinions but to suggest that I would take up the same tune as him despite my views to the contrary is, quite frankly, ridiculous. If you find my commentary tiresome on any subject, you'd be wise to ignore it. I'm certainly not going to change my posting habits...

I'm not suggesting that you would agree with him even if you disagree. I'm just saying that you appear to back him in the form of an allegiance in order to give your opinions more weight. It's no secret that Mike is one of the if not the most respected posters here.

I don't find your commentary tiresome, far from it.

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You are wrong. I am the first to admit Michael's shortcomings. You are right, there are many blind supporters but please don't label me as one. I have a deep respect and admiration for his abilities and achievements but this does not brain wash me into Schumacher mania.

The footage does not alter my opinion because i clearly remeber that fateful day. It was a sickening day for us all who remember it, i'm sure you agree. Being a fan of Ayrton Senna i would have been highly sensitised to any form of inappropriate reaction on the podium. I don't remember any and all i see in this convenient little montage is a blatant attempt to distort a true and broad representation of reaction from just Michael.

Fair enough. To the extent that the footage was misleading, I could be wrong in labelling Michael a degenerate.

I'm just saying that you appear to back him in the form of an allegiance in order to give your opinions more weight. It's no secret that Mike is one of the if not the most respected posters here.

:lol:

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No Puma, I don;t think you get. That video was not meant reinforce your point of view. The 34 sec video of Schumacher celebrating is taken completely out of context. It is a clear attempt at character assasination by some fan who doesn't stand Schumacher. It shows 2 clips each for a few seconds and presented in the manner to imply the Schumacher didn't care about the death.

Senna's Condition was unknown at the race restarted and end. So Schumacher pumping his fists was for the crowd where still cheering and waving flags. Why don't you judge that? Isnt the crowd equally human and guilty?

Second, It might have been known the Senna's condition was very serious when he stepped out of the car and went to the weigh in and then straight to the podium. During that short time it hardly surprising that true magnitude of the situation was unknown. I am not defending schumacher here, I am just not accusing him of anything.

Don't base your judgement based on a 2 second clip of him smiling. Worse things have happened in F1 before.

You are very spot on, my friend. People accuse him of being ill-mannered, being a sadistic/evil person. Instead of pointing fingers at someone else, your true qualities is showing here..

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You are very spot on, my friend. People accuse him of being ill-mannered, being a sadistic/evil person. Instead of pointing fingers at someone else, your true qualities is showing here..

You're making a distinction that is largely an irrelevant one. It is in terribly poor form to celebrate both when a colleague has passed and when they are in near-fatal condition. Whether or not Michael thought Senna was dead o near-dead, he shouldn't have been celebrating. The only defense of Schumacher to my mind, is on that suggests the clips provided were taken out of context and were misleading.

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Here's another tidbit. Senna was going to fly Roland's flag if he won. He already planned to show some respect for a fallen comrade. Contrast that to M$'s attitude. Even in the face of a tragedy (that Senna planned to solumnly observe), M$ still has his little podium celebration with smiles and fist-raising.

The video you posted, stop, backfired if your main objective was to show the evils of editing. No amount of editing apparently removed the smiles and fist-raising. Even the SpeedTV snippet you posted had Bob Varsha, 10 years later and able to look back with 20-20 hindsight, with all the facts at his disposal, saying during the podium ceremony that 'the driver's had been told about Ayrton's condition'.

But lets forget about Ayrton and go back to Roland. I'll accept that M$ didn't know how serious Ayrton's condition was (even though there was a huge medical/helicopter scene going on at the site of the incident--a clear indication of a serious happening) but why didn't M$ show a somber attitude for Roland?

Also, drib, to call me a respected member of this forum is to tell a great joke! I've had my share of tomatoes thrown at me <_< And for the record, I believe that Dan has stated somewhere that my analysis of Alonso's driving style was 'rubbish' so that would prove he's not always agreeing with me :D (Which is to the good, I think).

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Can you give me one reason why Michael would have gone out of his way to intentionally insult not only the world of motorsport but the whole world by celebrating when it was inappropriate?

I find it a little ironic that people use words like 'arrogant', 'devious' and 'selfish' to describe one of the only few drivers to balance a successful career with a beautiful family.

Look at Jacques, a self confessed loner and geek. Who lies awake at night wondering what could and should have been; Michael or Jacques?.....Where's Jacques wife and kids?

Michael was aparently not able to restrain himself after his third consecutive victory. Very low class.

What on earth has a 'beautiful family' got to do with anything? He might be the best father and huband but that does not neccesarily make him a great sportsman. The opposite might apply to JV. Horrible lover/husband/potential father, but a morlly sound sportsman.

Now read Mike's post again which I have quoted for your convenience.

Thanks for that, it shows my memory isn't as bad as I thought...and it showed that they knew about Ayrton on the podium and that although Mika was clapping, he wasn't smiling or looking happy (neither was Larini)--it was a polite clap for the anthem. So what was M$'s reaction? He was smiling, pointing at his crew and putting his fist happily in the air.

Here's what I think: M$ is a self-absorbed guy that didn't really care about Ayrton's condition. The only thought going through his mind appeared to be 'Yay, I won!'. In the press-conference, he did a good job to look somber, but that only shows he's good at PR.

(Bruce, I tried to look for the tape I have, but living with a toddler means my stuff sometimes goes missing and is found much later in odd places...the only tapes I could find of the '94 Decade were Brazil and Japan...excellent racing, especially by Alesi and the v12 Ferrari, but not exactly what I was looking for ;) )

I'll end my part in this thread by saying that even if you take this situation out of the equation, you are still left with a Schumacher legacy tainted by controversy. He holds quite alot of records, and is probably the best all-around driver on the grid, but he will carry his many questionable exploits with him along with those records.

Given the choice, I would rather be remembered like Sir Stirling Moss, with no grand records or statistics to his name, than be remembered like Michael Schumacher will be.

As stated at the start of this discussion; EVRYBODY knew about Rolands death, and EVERYBODY knew that Ruebens laid critically wounded in hostpital, and 90% of the drivers, Michael, Mika and Narini included, knew Senna was either dead or seriously hurt. Yet Michael found the occasion to smile and wave his childlike little fists. It does ont make him a sadist but simply a a narcissist whom could not manage to hide his joy of winning his third consecutive while his most likely titlecontender, being Senna, had 0 points compared to his 30, would be out for much of the season, if not forever, and that the WDC title was looking promislingly his.

Don't base your judgement based on a 2 second clip of him smiling. Worse things have happened in F1 before.

No. From a driver's casualty point of view that is pretty much the worst.

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Okay, **** it, you lot have it. Nothing i say will redeem his character in any of your eyes. You have him pinned into the corner and condemned for ever more. Pointing out that he is a decent family man was to try and open your mind to the merest possibility that fundamentally he is a decent human being.

I don't want to be part of a forum that constantly barrages Michael just seemingly for the pure pleasure.

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Okay, **** it, you lot have it. Nothing i say will redeem his character in any of your eyes. You have him pinned into the corner and condemned for ever more. Pointing out that he is a decent family man was to try and open your mind to the merest possibility that fundamentally he is a decent human being.

I don't want to be part of a forum that constantly barrages Michael just seemingly for the pure pleasure.

Don't leave, man, I enjoy your postings! I need you to defend Stella Artois to Russ!

For the record, I have always kept my opinions about M$'s lack of ethics confined to the motorsport arena. His personal life is just that, personal. M$ is a very talented driver that will do anything for the win. My ethics prevent me from backing a driver so driven (pardon the pun). That is not to say he is a bad person, just that I don't like his on-track tactics.

If you remember, I also called out Alonso for the idiotic, unsafe brake-check and swerve earlier this season. Look at it this way, drib, at least you support a driver with an impressive F1 CV. I support JV...............and looke at the bashing I take (took?) ;)

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Okay, **** it, you lot have it. Nothing i say will redeem his character in any of your eyes. You have him pinned into the corner and condemned for ever more. Pointing out that he is a decent family man was to try and open your mind to the merest possibility that fundamentally he is a decent human being.

I don't want to be part of a forum that constantly barrages Michael just seemingly for the pure pleasure.

His character on track has nothing to do with that off. I know for a fact that he has done a world of good to charities, that he is a loving father and husband, etc, but that does not defend his on track ethics.

Its like that brute of a defender, Ferguson who plays for City, he may be the best chap in the world but that does not excuse him hostpitalising someone on the field.

And you are absolutely right, whatever anyone says about Michaels on track ethics is just water on the goose as I will never change my perception of him.

If you feel like leaving that is truly a shame and I wish you would reconsider, but don't use conflicting views on Michael's ethics as a decisive factor.

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Okay, **** it, you lot have it. Nothing i say will redeem his character in any of your eyes. You have him pinned into the corner and condemned for ever more. Pointing out that he is a decent family man was to try and open your mind to the merest possibility that fundamentally he is a decent human being.

I don't want to be part of a forum that constantly barrages Michael just seemingly for the pure pleasure.

Right, so because we stick to a certain position for which we have provided video evidence, we are incapable of considering alternative theories yet, presumably, you are? Pot calling the kettle black - p**s off then, mate.

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If you would honestly prefer to be remembered in the vain of Stirling Moss then good luck to you and i mean that sincerely. I can think of many worse drivers who's careers i would want to emulate.

How about Giovanni Lavaggi - he bought some drives in mid 1990's and was CRAAAAAAP!!

I'm no schuey fan as u all know, but I think that what he's being accused of is a little far-fetched. How likely is it that Benetton came on the radio before Schuey reached parc ferme and said "just to let u know michael, senna is dead" - I really really dont think schuey would've known that senna had died when he was on the podium. After 9/11 schuey didnt spray champagne and was clearly solemn on the podium, and I think when a marshall died a few years back he did the same thing (ie not celebrate). The fact that schuey was smiling makes it quite clear that schuey didn't know the gravity of what had happened that day. The guy has a wife and kids who he loves, a team who he regularly calls his family, he's clearly a caring sensitive guy so I strongly disagree that schuey would feel joy knowing that Ayrton had been killed

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How about Giovanni Lavaggi - he bought some drives in mid 1990's and was CRAAAAAAP!!

I'm no schuey fan as u all know, but I think that what he's being accused of is a little far-fetched. How likely is it that Benetton came on the radio before Schuey reached parc ferme and said "just to let u know michael, senna is dead" - I really really dont think schuey would've known that senna had died when he was on the podium. After 9/11 schuey didnt spray champagne and was clearly solemn on the podium, and I think when a marshall died a few years back he did the same thing (ie not celebrate). The fact that schuey was smiling makes it quite clear that schuey didn't know the gravity of what had happened that day. The guy has a wife and kids who he loves, a team who he regularly calls his family, he's clearly a caring sensitive guy so I strongly disagree that schuey would feel joy knowing that Ayrton had been killed

At times I wonder if you even bother reading the thread :eusa_think:

Roland was already dead on Saturday and Ruebens was hostpitalised with serious injury, something ALL, including motorsport enthusiasts in the remotest parts of in-land China and the mountains of Norway had managed to get news of. Do you think, for even one second that Schumaher knew nothing of this? Or is the death of Senna the only life worth mourning?

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At times I wonder if you even bother reading the thread :eusa_think:

Roland was already dead on Saturday and Ruebens was hostpitalised with serious injury, something ALL, including motorsport enthusiasts in the remotest parts of in-land China and the mountains of Norway had managed to get news of. Do you think, for even one second that Schumaher knew nothing of this? Or is the death of Senna the only life worth mourning?

But you and others were arguing that he was celebrating despite knowing senna had died

and to be honest i admit half the time i don't read the entire thread, cos i'm at work so cant have the screen up too long :lol:

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But you and others were arguing that he was celebrating despite knowing senna had died

and to be honest i admit half the time i don't read the entire thread, cos i'm at work so cant have the screen up too long :lol:

Don't worry about the rest of the thread, just read my posts ;)

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But you and others were arguing that he was celebrating despite knowing senna had died

No. Schumacher fans tried to hide behind the excuse that he did not know of Senna's death. This only led them to expose themselves as Roland also died that weekend (Saturday) and that Reubens almost died that same day. Do you still think Michael was in his right to celebrate not matter if he knew of Senna's deth or not?

and to be honest i admit half the time i don't read the entire thread, cos i'm at work so cant have the screen up too long :lol:

Ok, no worries then :lol:

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No. Schumacher fans tried to hide behind the excuse that he did not know of Senna's death. This only led them to expose themselves as Roland also died that weekend (Saturday) and that Reubens almost died that same day. Do you still think Michael was in his right to celebrate not matter if he knew of Senna's deth or not?

It still seems a bit much implying that schumacher is scum/heartless/pile of crap just cos of that 1 little smile 12 years ago. For all we know, some benetton mechanic may have held up a funny sign, or his girlfriend/brother/dad might have waved to him, and schuey would be rude not to acknowledge them!

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1991 Loosing my Illusions / That was just a dream

JUST a Dream / DREAM (w/o MS-7-WDC)

2 =NM-RP-AS=_____-GB-MB-JA-MH

3 =AP-DH-AS=_____-RP-JA-MB-GB-JH

4 =DH-GB-MH=_____-JA-RB-MB-DC-

5 =DH-DC-JH=_____-JA-GB-MH-OP-HHF-RB

6 =DH-JV-JA=_____-MH-GB-DC-RB-

7 =JV-HHF-DC=_____-JA-GB-MH-EI-GF-OP-JH-RS-DH-RB

8 =MH-DC-EI=_____-JV-DH-HHF-AW-GF-RS-JA-RB

9 =MH-EI-HHF=_____-DC-RS-RB-JH-GF-MSA-JT-DH

2000 =MH-DC-RB=_____-RS-GF-JV-JB-HHF-JT-EI

01 =DC-RB-RS=_____-MH-JPM-JV-NH-JT-KR-

02 =RB-JPM-RS=_____-DC-KR-JB-JT-EI-NH-GF-FM-JV

03 =KR-JPM-RB=_____-RS-FA-DC-JT-JB-MW-HHF-GF-CD-NH-OP-JV

04 =RB-JB-FA=_____-JPM-JT-KR-TS-RS-DC-GF-FM-MW-OP-NH

05 =FA-KR-JPM=_____-GF-RS-JT-RB-JB-MW-NH-DC-FM-JV-

06 * =FA-FM-GF=_____-KR-JB-JPM-RB-NH-RS-PR-DC-JT-JV-RK-MW

= = =

D`Hill WDC-3 2nd-1

M`Hakk WDC-3 3rd-1

R`Barr WDC-2 2nd-1 3rd-1

F`Alon WDC-2 3rd-1

D`Coult WDC-1 2nd-3 3rd-1

WDC-1= JV, KR.

= = =

(= Just a Dream / DREAM

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