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Schumacher Legend Will Be Tainted By Mistakes

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Here's another tidbit. Senna was going to fly Roland's flag if he won. He already planned to show some respect for a fallen comrade. Contrast that to M$'s attitude. Even in the face of a tragedy (that Senna planned to solumnly observe), M$ still has his little podium celebration with smiles and fist-raising.

The video you posted, stop, backfired if your main objective was to show the evils of editing. No amount of editing apparently removed the smiles and fist-raising. Even the SpeedTV snippet you posted had Bob Varsha, 10 years later and able to look back with 20-20 hindsight, with all the facts at his disposal, saying during the podium ceremony that 'the driver's had been told about Ayrton's condition'.

But lets forget about Ayrton and go back to Roland. I'll accept that M$ didn't know how serious Ayrton's condition was (even though there was a huge medical/helicopter scene going on at the site of the incident--a clear indication of a serious happening) but why didn't M$ show a somber attitude for Roland?

Also, drib, to call me a respected member of this forum is to tell a great joke! I've had my share of tomatoes thrown at me <_< And for the record, I believe that Dan has stated somewhere that my analysis of Alonso's driving style was 'rubbish' so that would prove he's not always agreeing with me :D (Which is to the good, I think).

All I can say regarding this is... WELL SAID & very good post!

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Don't leave, man, I enjoy your postings! I need you to defend Stella Artois to Russ!

For the record, I have always kept my opinions about M$'s lack of ethics confined to the motorsport arena. His personal life is just that, personal. M$ is a very talented driver that will do anything for the win. My ethics prevent me from backing a driver so driven (pardon the pun). That is not to say he is a bad person, just that I don't like his on-track tactics.

If you remember, I also called out Alonso for the idiotic, unsafe brake-check and swerve earlier this season. Look at it this way, drib, at least you support a driver with an impressive F1 CV. I support JV...............and looke at the bashing I take (took?) ;)

Ethics???????????????? Once again I think this word should be retired fromt the dictionnary. Look around you my friend and especially in sport, this word doesn't mean anything anymore nowadays (except the odd exception of course). I think this was proved for instance during the final of the footbal WorldCup in front of millions if not milliards of people. Italy won and the ethic has been ****ed and already forgotten. And by the way how do we know you're an authority about such things. Maybe you're a priest or something... B)

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It seems that all these guys here try o justify that MS is what he is in F1 because he was cheating ot beacuse of any unethic trick or what ever, I would like to see a list of races won by MS were he was cheating or something, just to how many of those 90 wins are dirty wins, that would be a good way to silence all these guys that don't aprettiate what MS has done for this sport, these poeple who said that MS never fad a decent team mate, but at the same time said that those not decent team mate were good enought that the team needed to ask them to get out of the way for Schumi to win the race, so I don't understand your point of view, were those team mates decent enought to fight MS or not? How many dirty championships does Michael got at this point? How many of those 119 fast laps that he got were dirty too? How many of those pole he did it parking the car in the middle of the way?

This is a non-sense topic so there's no need to keep talking about this, because we got here at lot of blind people who do not want to see anything, that means that we can not help them just because they don't want any help, so they will be blind the rest of their life, just take look at some people blaming Michael for smiling in 1994 and another one for crashing with Hill in the same year, twelve years ago, Maybe he was winning all theses years crashing with other drivers, or smiling to them from the podium. :thbdn::thbdn:

We got freedom of speaking, say whatever you want.

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One more thing about Schumacher... A good family friend of mine was the Clark of the course for every South African Grand Prix & a lot of British Grand Prix's in the 1980's & 1990's.

So in other words he made race deciding decisions (and he clearly did a better job than The Monza ones last weekend). He was effectively the most important person running those races. He was involved in meetings with every driver at the time and has many interesting stories.

The one came in 1993 where Senna & Schumacher had an incident at Kyalami which ended the Germans race.

He said the incident was investigated immediately and found to be 100% a racing incident. But a few Minutes later Schumacher burst into the race contol room swearing at everyone in there going on about how Senna was a cheat and bla bla bla. Basically my mate told MS to p**s off and get to grips with himself.

After the incident my mate said everyone from the FIA including prominent leaders of it said what a complete ar$ehole this little german was. He said & still does say that in his time in formula 1 Schumacher was idiot number one in his eyes!

I very much doubt much has changed.

Schumacher celebrating after the death of Ayrton & Roland showed this, as did that fact he raced the day after his own mother died, As does the fact he cheats at any opportunity (refer to Ecaps sig). I

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One more thing about Schumacher... A good family friend of mine was the Clark of the course for every South African Grand Prix & a lot of British Grand Prix's in the 1980's & 1990's.

So in other words he made race deciding decisions (and he clearly did a better job than The Monza ones last weekend). He was effectively the most important person running those races. He was involved in meetings with every driver at the time and has many interesting stories.

The one came in 1993 where Senna & Schumacher had an incident at Kyalami which ended the Germans race.

He said the incident was investigated immediately and found to be 100% a racing incident. But a few Minutes later Schumacher burst into the race contol room swearing at everyone in there going on about how Senna was a cheat and bla bla bla. Basically my mate told MS to p**s off and get to grips with himself.

After the incident my mate said everyone from the FIA including prominent leaders of it said what a complete ar$ehole this little german was. He said & still does say that in his time in formula 1 Schumacher was idiot number one in his eyes!

I very much doubt much has changed.

Schumacher celebrating after the death of Ayrton & Roland showed this, as did that fact he raced the day after his own mother died, As does the fact he cheats at any opportunity (refer to Ecaps sig). I

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And today's stewards are probably saying the same about Alonso who keeps complaining about their decisions!

Hardly... Anyone that saw what happened to Alonso on Sunday & what happened in the Senna/Schumacher incident will know that they are VERY different circumstances!!!

What I said is just another instance of what a charming chap Michael is!

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One more thing about Schumacher... A good family friend of mine was the Clark of the course for every South African Grand Prix & a lot of British Grand Prix's in the 1980's & 1990's.

So in other words he made race deciding decisions (and he clearly did a better job than The Monza ones last weekend). He was effectively the most important person running those races. He was involved in meetings with every driver at the time and has many interesting stories.

The one came in 1993 where Senna & Schumacher had an incident at Kyalami which ended the Germans race.

He said the incident was investigated immediately and found to be 100% a racing incident. But a few Minutes later Schumacher burst into the race contol room swearing at everyone in there going on about how Senna was a cheat and bla bla bla. Basically my mate told MS to p**s off and get to grips with himself.

After the incident my mate said everyone from the FIA including prominent leaders of it said what a complete ar$ehole this little german was. He said & still does say that in his time in formula 1 Schumacher was idiot number one in his eyes!

I very much doubt much has changed.

Schumacher celebrating after the death of Ayrton & Roland showed this, as did that fact he raced the day after his own mother died, As does the fact he cheats at any opportunity (refer to Ecaps sig). I

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I think a young racing driver being angry after a collision which he felt wasnt his fault is completely normal and does nothing to show that he is a bad person

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I think a young racing driver being angry after a collision which he felt wasnt his fault is completely normal and does nothing to show that he is a bad person

In his case it shows his wonderful character!

It's not cheating if you don't get caught.

can you tell who is not cheating?

Do you remember BAR being ban for a couple of races, fro havind a double fuel tank?

Renault had Mass dampers wich were found to be ilegal, but they keep the point?

How many teams had flexi wing in their cars?

Do you remember Michelin having a extra wide tyre that had a bigger contact with the track?

Do yu remember toyota stealing data from Ferrari?

Do you really need more?

There is a diference between your mentioned situations where teams "bent the rules" as oppose to ramming your title challenger into the wall/sand!

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In his case it shows his wonderful character!

There is a diference between your mentioned situations where teams "bent the rules" as oppose to ramming your title challenger into the wall/sand!

how many titles did he win doing that?

And don't mention 1994 beacuse that was taken as a race incident, like the one you're talking about Senna and Schumi.

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One more thing about Schumacher... A good family friend of mine was the Clark of the course for every South African Grand Prix & a lot of British Grand Prix's in the 1980's & 1990's.

So in other words he made race deciding decisions (and he clearly did a better job than The Monza ones last weekend). He was effectively the most important person running those races. He was involved in meetings with every driver at the time and has many interesting stories.

The one came in 1993 where Senna & Schumacher had an incident at Kyalami which ended the Germans race.

He said the incident was investigated immediately and found to be 100% a racing incident. But a few Minutes later Schumacher burst into the race contol room swearing at everyone in there going on about how Senna was a cheat and bla bla bla. Basically my mate told MS to p**s off and get to grips with himself.

After the incident my mate said everyone from the FIA including prominent leaders of it said what a complete ar$ehole this little german was. He said & still does say that in his time in formula 1 Schumacher was idiot number one in his eyes!

I very much doubt much has changed.

Schumacher celebrating after the death of Ayrton & Roland showed this, as did that fact he raced the day after his own mother died, As does the fact he cheats at any opportunity (refer to Ecaps sig). I

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The people who actually know him and have met him, such as journalists and team members, rarely have a bad word to say about schuey. Surely his personality should be judged on whats said by people who actually know him, not people like us who have never been anywhere near him!

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Renault had Mass dampers wich were found to be ilegal, but they keep the point?

The mass damper system was deemed legal FIA in September 2005 and deemed illegal by the same people just under a year after that. Is it cheating if a team uses rear-wing and then FIA bans it? Should that team lose its points?

You really live on your own planet.... it's called planet Scumbag and you're probably an important VIP there as opposed in the real word where you would ..... (where you're not even worth a scumbag). I live in Switzerland and I had the pleasure and privilege a few years ago to watch Schumacher play football with the FC Echichens (fourth or fifth league). I must admit I couldn't believe it.. here was Schumacher playing just for fun for a team that you and your Clark(??) friend of yours would probably not even consider. He was behaving just like a normal person, was completely involved with his mates and even scored a goal....There was no need to have an university degree to see how much fun he had... almost like a little kid... after the match there was no problem to shake hands with him. I talked later with another player of the club and the guy told me how Schumacher came to train with them whenever his heavy work schedule would let him do so, he told me how surprised he was about Schumacher behaviour, training like the others, not big headed in the least, not asking any privilege and taking his shower with them after the match as it was the most natural thing to do..... oh by the way he didn't cheat during the match. Nuff said.

Your point after all this is what excatly? Schumacher plays, and part owns a small football club in Norway as well, does that make him a saint?

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Your point after all this is what excatly? Schumacher plays, and part owns a small football club in Norway as well, does that make him a saint?

Its just as small a point/just as trivial as schuey complaining to the race official in 1993, and smiling on a podium in 1994. This endless debate will see more and more small examples from both sides, in an attempt to win the argument, which is quite clearly impossible for either side!

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Its just as small a point/just as trivial as schuey complaining to the race official in 1993, and smiling on a podium in 1994. This endless debate will see more and more small examples from both sides, in an attempt to win the argument, which is quite clearly impossible for either side!

My Lord,

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT FOOTBALL, WHAT HE LIKES FOR DINNER ON WEDNESDAY, HIS FAVOURITE COLOUR, BUT HIS F1 ETHICS.

Now read that ten times so you tifosis can stick to topic and not drag all kinds of unrelated excuses into the discussion.

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I can't believe the nonsense that is being spouted on these forums - it's quite an eye opener I can tell you!

Fair enough, if people don't rate Michael's as 1 of the best becasue of his race ethics, then fine. Just don't then say Senna was the best, because he had dubious race ethics too, probably even more so. Senna rammed people, he was disqualified from races too, he basically did everything he could to win races, the same as Shumacher does. I even remember him ramming Mansell from behind just to stop Mansell getting the record no. of wins (at that time) in a season in 92. It was a farily innocuous incident, but in the context of this discussion, Senna didn't know what freak accident might occur because of it - he could have killed Mansell, he could have killed himself or both of them, just for the sake of a stat. As I say, it was a fairly innocuous incident, but to be honest, I've seen what looked like worse crashes than Senna's and the driver got out of it ok, but the point I'm making is that you really don't know what's going to happen when you crash into someone in F1.

As for all this discussion about Shumacher celebrating in Imola in 94 - I watched the race on the BBC and there was nothing untoward at the time, otherwise something would have been said. If nothing else, Murray would have said something because that's the sort of person he was. If people watched the race at the time & don't remember anything untoward happening, then it didn't happen and I don't care what anyone says about a piffling little video clip! If people are making comments & all they've seen is the video clip, then quite frankly you are talking rubbish. And before anyone says I'm just a another schumacher fan, I didn't like him at all in 94, 95, 96, etc! I still don't like his race ethics, but I can admire his talents, the same as I do with Senna because of his race ethics too.

But here's the killer for all of you people saying that the likes of Moss, Fangio, Clark were all more sporting - I have heard Stirling Moss talk at a showing of Chris Rea's La Passione and 1 of the things he said was that when he saw a yellow flag he tried to overtake the person in front hoping they had just backed off slightly because of the yellow flag. Now I am not trying to sully anybody's reputation because I am in awe of Moss, he had a presence that even from 50ft away was inspiring, but it just puts things in context a bit. I thought it was funny, but when you think about the implications of it..... If it happened today there would be and has been uproar.

Oh and for people who don't know - there has always been team orders in F1, making team mates changing postions, etc. In fact quite a few times they even made a team mate get ouf the car he was driving & give it to the other team member who's car had failed - just a reminder for people who refer to today's drivers & say they have been gifted races!

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Your point after all this is what excatly? Schumacher plays, and part owns a small football club in Norway as well, does that make him a saint?

Im trying to figure it out myself...

If this guy was big drinking buddies with Schumacher then maybe some of the points would be valid, but as it Schumacher is still a cheating scumbad in most peoples eyes until proven otherwise.

My Lord,

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT FOOTBALL, WHAT HE LIKES FOR DINNER ON WEDNESDAY, HIS FAVOURITE COLOUR, BUT HIS F1 ETHICS.

Now read that ten times so you tifosis can stick to topic and not drag all kinds of unrelated excuses into the discussion.

:lol:

I heard Schumacher once saved a drowning Iraqi kid, only to steal his wallet and throw him back in the river!

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Welcome to Bedlam, Pabloh20. A nice post, that. Selling coals to Newcastle a bit at the end, but still a good post. Hope you stick around.

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Yeah welcome guys!

Dont worry Im not always this argumentative :)

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Anyway for some to think that MS was like "yoo hooo Senna died and i won and i'm gonna be the champ" or "yeeaahh the brazilian died.." its a bit more than stupid.To comment his whole presense while on track ok, but conclusions like these expose your inability to judge objectively and even rationally.MS has said he was even afraid to drive after that weekend and it took him many days and kms of testing to get over it.Another thing is that nobody knows what the teams instructed the drivers to act like.AS death hadn't been announced and even if they knew, they might have been told to act as if AS was alive.Speculation from my side??Of course!!But it's worth as much as your assumptions....

Oh and Rubens was not seriously injured.He simply broke his right hand and the afternoon was at the track and the next day.

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I quite agree Tifosi Too

Maybe you have to be able to think like that yourself to be able to believe it of somebody else ? I don't know, I can't even conceive the idea of Scumacher being happy or just didn't care that Senna was dead - it's not something that I can even begin to comprehend.

At the very least, drivers don't like being reminded of their own mortality, so I find it hard to imagine that Schumacher was happy about being reminded that he could die driving.

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I'm sure schuey had a good reason for raising a smile unknown to us, to suggest that he didnt care about the deaths is utter poo

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I can't believe the nonsense that is being spouted on these forums - it's quite an eye opener I can tell you!

Fair enough, if people don't rate Michael's as 1 of the best becasue of his race ethics, then fine. Just don't then say Senna was the best, because he had dubious race ethics too, probably even more so. Senna rammed people, he was disqualified from races too, he basically did everything he could to win races, the same as Shumacher does. I even remember him ramming Mansell from behind just to stop Mansell getting the record no. of wins (at that time) in a season in 92. It was a farily innocuous incident, but in the context of this discussion, Senna didn't know what freak accident might occur because of it - he could have killed Mansell, he could have killed himself or both of them, just for the sake of a stat. As I say, it was a fairly innocuous incident, but to be honest, I've seen what looked like worse crashes than Senna's and the driver got out of it ok, but the point I'm making is that you really don't know what's going to happen when you crash into someone in F1.

As for all this discussion about Shumacher celebrating in Imola in 94 - I watched the race on the BBC and there was nothing untoward at the time, otherwise something would have been said. If nothing else, Murray would have said something because that's the sort of person he was. If people watched the race at the time & don't remember anything untoward happening, then it didn't happen and I don't care what anyone says about a piffling little video clip! If people are making comments & all they've seen is the video clip, then quite frankly you are talking rubbish. And before anyone says I'm just a another schumacher fan, I didn't like him at all in 94, 95, 96, etc! I still don't like his race ethics, but I can admire his talents, the same as I do with Senna because of his race ethics too.

But here's the killer for all of you people saying that the likes of Moss, Fangio, Clark were all more sporting - I have heard Stirling Moss talk at a showing of Chris Rea's La Passione and 1 of the things he said was that when he saw a yellow flag he tried to overtake the person in front hoping they had just backed off slightly because of the yellow flag. Now I am not trying to sully anybody's reputation because I am in awe of Moss, he had a presence that even from 50ft away was inspiring, but it just puts things in context a bit. I thought it was funny, but when you think about the implications of it..... If it happened today there would be and has been uproar.

Oh and for people who don't know - there has always been team orders in F1, making team mates changing postions, etc. In fact quite a few times they even made a team mate get ouf the car he was driving & give it to the other team member who's car had failed - just a reminder for people who refer to today's drivers & say they have been gifted races!

:clap3::clap3::clap3:

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Oh and Rubens was not seriously injured.He simply broke his right hand and the afternoon was at the track and the next day.

You wrong, Here's the race report on the incident, Much more serious that that suggested by you!!!

Rubens Barrichello crashed his Jordan heavily at the fast corner before the pits. The car took off and hit the top of the barrier. It was then launched back onto the track where it came to rest upside down. Barrichello was unconscious and he had swallowed his tongue but quick intervention from the medical teams saved him although he was out for the rest of the weekend.

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