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Schumacher Legend Will Be Tainted By Mistakes

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Right, so because we stick to a certain position for which we have provided video evidence, we are incapable of considering alternative theories yet, presumably, you are? Pot calling the kettle black - p**s off then, mate.

you call two second clip video evidence? It is clearly the work of some evil genious and video editing. How silly can that clip be, it builds up emotions by showing a bloody senna and then schumacher with fists pumping in the air. for 12 FECKING years it wasn't an issue and now all the forums have erupted. the evidence is not in the video it is in your bias and frankly it doesn't matter because i can see why you and other anti schumacher fans are so p**sed off. as for as I am concerned, the sport is full of losers, cheaters and winners. and it doesn't matter because on the race track there is no such thing as winning fairly or with ethics. there is only winning. our little boy Alonso isn't exactly the epitome of ethics or sound moral behaviour on or off the track, he is a little prick who can drive the wheels off his car (as he did in hungary).

they problem with you glory day piners is that you assume some sort of moral and intelluctual superiority on these forums and want to associate yourselfs with some name from the past that you read about in the magazine or heard of the TV and want to believe that you are better than the other fans of aren't aware of the hallowed F1 history. Look, it doesn't matter, absolutely doesn't. To the current generation Schumacher is F1 and that is about as much truth there is in F1 today. I claim to be of an generation before that, that of Senna and Prost and even Schumacher. Others are from the time of Piquet and Prost or event Gilles. We all have our favorites and all of our favourites had our flaws. The only difference is that in the days of the old, F1 was a sport limited to a few people in europe and it was like a weekend country fair with all the festivities and some racing added too. In today's world, the Drivers face intense scrutiny of their every action. Especially this year, the one I call the year of the youtube! Its natural for some people to be loved and hated. I think that those names from that past that you want to associate with come with enough skeletons in their closests when subjected to the same level of scrutiny as schumacher is being put under.

Seriously quit it, your act is fooling no one. Get with the realities of the sport today and quit this senseless bashing. It's in poor taste. You may want to dwell in the self proclaimed aura of your racing expertise, but your senseless bashing is fooling no one. Its just painfully annoying. If you can't make a valid argument on merit, then don't resort to bashing....

When the lights go green, off they go. First one to the chequered flag wins. That is about all that matters...

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When the lights go green, off they go. First one to the chequered flag wins (no matter how). That is about all that matters...

edited by ecapdeville... -_-

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You wrong, Here's the race report on the incident, Much more serious that that suggested by you!!!

Well... :whistling:

In three days, F1 was turned upside down.

First, Barrichello was knocked unconscious and swallowed his tongue when he crashed his Jordan with sickening violence in Friday practice.

His escape with only minor bruises seemed to underline how safe F1 had become, an illusion that was shattered forever when Austrian novice Roland Ratzenberger was killed instantly in a crash the following day.

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/3605579.stm

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Ethics???????????????? Once again I think this word should be retired fromt the dictionnary. Look around you my friend and especially in sport, this word doesn't mean anything anymore nowadays (except the odd exception of course). I think this was proved for instance during the final of the footbal WorldCup in front of millions if not milliards of people. Italy won and the ethic has been ****ed and already forgotten. And by the way how do we know you're an authority about such things. Maybe you're a priest or something... B)

Ethics will only die if you let it. If you choose to be a cut-throat gutter-dweller have at it. The better parts of humanity will continue to prize such concepts as morals, ethics, and in the context of this thread, sportsmanship.

How do you know I'm an authority on such things? Good Lord, man! Are you so far gone you don't realize that ethics exist and govern many people's daily lives?

Listen up, M$ fans: This poster, Chris Strange, is defending M$. Take a good hard look at that and ask yourself why a man who would delete 'ethics' from the dictionary would take the side of M$............ :eusa_think:

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Listen up, M$ fans: This poster, Chris Strange, is defending M$. Take a good hard look at that and ask yourself why a man who would delete 'ethics' from the dictionary would take the side of M$............ :eusa_think:

You really don't know that all us tifosi-MS fans support him because we are all alike... :reddevile:

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When the lights go green, off they go. First one to the chequered flag wins (no matter how or make sure your opponent doesn't as in the case of Schumacher). That is about all that matters...

ecap, isn't this is what you wanted to say? -_-

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ecap, isn't this is what you wanted to say? -_-

EXACTLY!!!!!! :clap3:

You really don't know that all us tifosi-MS fans support him because we are all alike... :reddevile:

Oh no, in fact we know that... ;)

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Ethics will only die if you let it. If you choose to be a cut-throat gutter-dweller have at it. The better parts of humanity will continue to prize such concepts as morals, ethics, and in the context of this thread, sportsmanship.

How do you know I'm an authority on such things? Good Lord, man! Are you so far gone you don't realize that ethics exist and govern many people's daily lives?

Listen up, M$ fans: This poster, Chris Strange, is defending M$. Take a good hard look at that and ask yourself why a man who would delete 'ethics' from the dictionary would take the side of M$............ :eusa_think:

Can you read my friend ? I never said I wanted to delete the word ethic from the dictionnary :nono1:

I was just making a point that unfortunately as far as I can see we live in a Darwinian world where competition reigns supreme and this is particularly true in sports. It is therefore only logical to assume that ethic has only secondary importance in this context. :banana:

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What's the difference between "retire" and "delete", Chris? They mean the same to me - removal. I do see the point you are making in your last post, though, even if I don't necessarily agree.

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Can you read my friend ? I never said I wanted to delete the word ethic from the dictionnary :nono1:

I was just making a point that unfortunately as far as I can see we live in a Darwinian world where competition reigns supreme and this is particularly true in sports. It is therefore only logical to assume that ethic has only secondary importance in this context. :banana:

Perhaps to the majority of people who have only a superficial understanding of Michael's career, ie an understanding based on his records alone and not based on a comprehensive understanding from seeing all or at least the majority of his races. The former category wouldn't even realize that Michael was a cheat while the latter would be uniformly aware. Although, they would perhaps be split between the Machiavelian, who care not for ethics but only results and, I would expect the larger group, who value ethics in sport as they do in life.

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I was just making a point that unfortunately as far as I can see we live in a Darwinian world where competition reigns supreme and this is particularly true in sports. It is therefore only logical to assume that ethic has only secondary importance in this context. :banana:

We may live in a Darwinian world, but we can choose to be above our animal instincts. Other drivers have won and become legends without descending to the depths that you maintain are part of 'competition'.

I stick with my original sentiments: I would rather be in the mould of Sir Stirling Moss, zero championships, than in the mould of Michael Schumacher.

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We may live in a Darwinian world, but we can choose to be above our animal instincts. Other drivers have won and become legends without descending to the depths that you maintain are part of 'competition'.

I stick with my original sentiments: I would rather be in the mould of Sir Stirling Moss, zero championships, than in the mould of Michael Schumacher.

Ok no problem you can stick to your opinion B) I think we should move on from this thread now.....

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I can't believe the nonsense that is being spouted on these forums - it's quite an eye opener I can tell you!

Fair enough, if people don't rate Michael's as 1 of the best becasue of his race ethics, then fine. Just don't then say Senna was the best, because he had dubious race ethics too, probably even more so. Senna rammed people, he was disqualified from races too, he basically did everything he could to win races, the same as Shumacher does. I even remember him ramming Mansell from behind just to stop Mansell getting the record no. of wins (at that time) in a season in 92. It was a farily innocuous incident, but in the context of this discussion, Senna didn't know what freak accident might occur because of it - he could have killed Mansell, he could have killed himself or both of them, just for the sake of a stat. As I say, it was a fairly innocuous incident, but to be honest, I've seen what looked like worse crashes than Senna's and the driver got out of it ok, but the point I'm making is that you really don't know what's going to happen when you crash into someone in F1.

Nobody would argue that Senna is a better sportsman than M$. I condemn Senna's un-sportsmanlike behaviour in the same breath as I do Michael's.

As for all this discussion about Shumacher celebrating in Imola in 94 - I watched the race on the BBC and there was nothing untoward at the time, otherwise something would have been said. If nothing else, Murray would have said something because that's the sort of person he was. If people watched the race at the time & don't remember anything untoward happening, then it didn't happen and I don't care what anyone says about a piffling little video clip! If people are making comments & all they've seen is the video clip, then quite frankly you are talking rubbish. And before anyone says I'm just a another schumacher fan, I didn't like him at all in 94, 95, 96, etc! I still don't like his race ethics, but I can admire his talents, the same as I do with Senna because of his race ethics too.

I'm glad you agree.

But here's the killer for all of you people saying that the likes of Moss, Fangio, Clark were all more sporting - I have heard Stirling Moss talk at a showing of Chris Rea's La Passione and 1 of the things he said was that when he saw a yellow flag he tried to overtake the person in front hoping they had just backed off slightly because of the yellow flag. Now I am not trying to sully anybody's reputation because I am in awe of Moss, he had a presence that even from 50ft away was inspiring, but it just puts things in context a bit. I thought it was funny, but when you think about the implications of it..... If it happened today there would be and has been uproar.

Passing under a yellow was commonplace back then and not against the rules. This was a common tactic in racing in Moss' era. All this proves is that Moss had big balls.

It has happened today, to Scott Speed when he passed DC under a yellow. Speed was penalized and that was that. It's hardly an ethical problem.

Oh and for people who don't know - there has always been team orders in F1, making team mates changing postions, etc. In fact quite a few times they even made a team mate get ouf the car he was driving & give it to the other team member who's car had failed - just a reminder for people who refer to today's drivers & say they have been gifted races!

A good point and I agree.

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One more thing about Schumacher... A good family friend of mine was the Clark of the course for every South African Grand Prix & a lot of British Grand Prix's in the 1980's & 1990's.

So in other words he made race deciding decisions (and he clearly did a better job than The Monza ones last weekend). He was effectively the most important person running those races. He was involved in meetings with every driver at the time and has many interesting stories.

The one came in 1993 where Senna & Schumacher had an incident at Kyalami which ended the Germans race.

He said the incident was investigated immediately and found to be 100% a racing incident. But a few Minutes later Schumacher burst into the race contol room swearing at everyone in there going on about how Senna was a cheat and bla bla bla. Basically my mate told MS to p**s off and get to grips with himself.

After the incident my mate said everyone from the FIA including prominent leaders of it said what a complete ar$ehole this little german was. He said & still does say that in his time in formula 1 Schumacher was idiot number one in his eyes!

I very much doubt much has changed.

Schumacher celebrating after the death of Ayrton & Roland showed this, as did that fact he raced the day after his own mother died, As does the fact he cheats at any opportunity (refer to Ecaps sig). I

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and it's because of posts like these....good people like cavallino lose patience and get banned.

No, it's because good posters like Cavallino lose thier patience and swear at posters who don't agree with him that Cavallino is banned.

Blitz, accept that not everybody worships Michael Schumacher. If you don't want a view of Michael different from yours, perhaps go to a Schumacher-only website?

http://www.michaelschumacher.cjb.net/

Now after you've had your fill of a redwash, just pop back here to discuss the real world ;)

:cheers:

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No, it's because good posters like Cavallino lose thier patience and swear at posters who don't agree with him that Cavallino is banned.

Blitz, accept that not everybody worships Michael Schumacher. If you don't want a view of Michael different from yours, perhaps go to a Schumacher-only website?

http://www.michaelschumacher.cjb.net/

Now after you've had your fill of a redwash, just pop back here to discuss the real world ;)

:cheers:

You are wrong, Mike. Obviously, I do accept different opinions of Michael, and have been accepting throughout the time, but, let's be honest now - this is just going over the limit.

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You are wrong, Mike. Obviously, I do accept different opinions of Michael, and have been accepting throughout the time, but, let's be honest now - this is just going over the limit.

Probably, but no more so than the JV stuff that I had to put up with when he departed. Perhaps a bit more simply because of the amount of questionable actions Michael has made over his career. This thread is titled 'Schumacher Legend Will Be Tainted By Mistakes' and there have been enough of them to justify the opinions being expressed.

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Probably, but no more so than the JV stuff that I had to put up with when he departed. Perhaps a bit more simply because of the amount of questionable actions Michael has made over his career. This thread is titled 'Schumacher Legend Will Be Tainted By Mistakes' and there have been enough of them to justify the opinions being expressed.

That is true, but since we are going to get no benefit from this, Im all for settling and moving on :thbup:

I never knew you were a JV fan ;)

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The mass damper system was deemed legal FIA in September 2005 and deemed illegal by the same people just under a year after that. Is it cheating if a team uses rear-wing and then FIA bans it? Should that team lose its points?

Like you said, they found it to be illegal, that means that it was illegal all the time, Mass damper were nat found illegal because of a change in the rules, was found to be illegal within current rules, so it was illegal the whole season, that means tht it was out of the rules in some point, the normal procedure is that if you do something illegal you have to be penalized for that, Renault was not penalized for using and getting advantage of the Mass Damper System, they haven't won a single race without it, so it was a big help for them, Maybe the championship would be over if they were not using it. I remember that in 1995 some teams were blamed of using an illegal fuel and that time those teams were penalized for that, they lost their points for that race, the fuel company ELF said that it was their mistake not the team's, but the teams were penalized for that eventhought it was not their fault, so I can say that FIA is helping Renault now to keep those points that they got using an illegal device since last year, and I can say that Renault don't deserve to be called a champion because they took the rules out of contest for their own benefit, maybe Kimi is the last year real champ, what you think about that?

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Like you said, they found it to be illegal, that means that it was illegal all the time, Mass damper were nat found illegal because of a change in the rules, was found to be illegal within current rules, so it was illegal the whole season, that means tht it was out of the rules in some point, the normal procedure is that if you do something illegal you have to be penalized for that, Renault was not penalized for using and getting advantage of the Mass Damper System, they haven't won a single race without it, so it was a big help for them, Maybe the championship would be over if they were not using it. I remember that in 1995 son=me team were blame of using an illegal fuel and that time team were penalized for that, they lost their point for that race, the fuel company ELF said that it was their mistake not the team's, but the team were penalized for that eventhought it was not their fault, so I can say that FIA is helping Renault now to keep their point that they got using an illegal device sine last year, and I can say that Renault don't deserve to be called a champion because they took the rules out of contest for their own benefit, maybe kimi is the last year real champ, what you think about that?

:rolleyes:

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you call two second clip video evidence? It is clearly the work of some evil genious and video editing. How silly can that clip be, it builds up emotions by showing a bloody senna and then schumacher with fists pumping in the air. for 12 FECKING years it wasn't an issue and now all the forums have erupted. the evidence is not in the video it is in your bias and frankly it doesn't matter because i can see why you and other anti schumacher fans are so p**sed off.

they problem with you glory day piners is that you assume some sort of moral and intelluctual superiority on these forums and want to associate yourselfs with some name from the past that you read about in the magazine or heard of the TV and want to believe that you are better than the other fans of aren't aware of the hallowed F1 history. Look, it doesn't matter, absolutely doesn't. To the current generation Schumacher is F1 and that is about as much truth there is in F1 today. I claim to be of an generation before that, that of Senna and Prost and even Schumacher. Others are from the time of Piquet and Prost or event Gilles. We all have our favorites and all of our favourites had our flaws. The only difference is that in the days of the old, F1 was a sport limited to a few people in europe and it was like a weekend country fair with all the festivities and some racing added too. In today's world, the Drivers face intense scrutiny of their every action. Especially this year, the one I call the year of the youtube! Its natural for some people to be loved and hated. I think that those names from that past that you want to associate with come with enough skeletons in their closests when subjected to the same level of scrutiny as schumacher is being put under.

Seriously quit it, your act is fooling no one. Get with the realities of the sport today and quit this senseless bashing. It's in poor taste. You may want to dwell in the self proclaimed aura of your racing expertise, but your senseless bashing is fooling no one. Its just painfully annoying. If you can't make a valid argument on merit, then don't resort to bashing....

When the lights go green, off they go. First one to the chequered flag wins. That is about all that matters...

This is a very good post

:clap3:

I have been watching F1 for 20 years or so and have watched practically every race in that period. A lot of the crap spouted on here is an attempt to re-write history and is espoused, IMHO, by those that are relatively new to F1 or have selective memories when it comes to certain drivers.

The forum is now smothered in Marmite :rolleyes:

A pity Cav has been banned - :(

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No, it's because good posters like Cavallino lose thier patience and swear at posters who don't agree with him that Cavallino is banned.

:cheers:

ok.so you agree that it is ludicrous to attack the poster ( use slang language) if you dont agree with their point of view.IMO this should then be uniform for everybody,and there should not be any distinction between who the accused is,i hope you agree (coz no sane man/woman) can disagree with that

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