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Schumacher Legend Will Be Tainted By Mistakes

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This is a very good post

:clap3:

I have been watching F1 for 20 years or so and have watched practically every race in that period. A lot of the crap spouted on here is an attempt to re-write history and is espoused, IMHO, by those that are relatively new to F1 or have selective memories when it comes to certain drivers.

The forum is now smothered in Marmite :rolleyes:

A pity Cav has been banned - :(

I definitely agree with your analysis.

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Passing under a yellow was commonplace back then and not against the rules. This was a common tactic in racing in Moss' era. All this proves is that Moss had big balls.

It has happened today, to Scott Speed when he passed DC under a yellow. Speed was penalized and that was that. It's hardly an ethical problem.

I think you've missed the point there slightly, Atumnpuma - the comment was in reference to sportsmanship, not just about legality.

What exactly do yellow flags mean ? Think about the implications of overtaking under a yellow flag. You say it's not an ethical problem, but surely it has as much ethics behind it as some of Schumacher's or Senna's indiscretions? At the end of the day, they were still trying to get an advantage when they knew they shouldn't, regardless of it contravenes the rules or not. Or are people now saying that the only determination of sporting behaviour and ethics is if you break the rules or not?

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ok.so you agree that it is ludicrous to attack the poster ( use slang language) if you dont agree with their point of view.IMO this should then be uniform for everybody,and there should not be any distinction between who the accused is,i hope you agree (coz no sane man/woman) can disagree with that

I thought you said you wouldn't be posting here any more...

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I thought you said you wouldn't be posting here any more...

:o

^_^

:lol:

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What drivel, I'll respond to this in full in a while, I am tired of posting and have to run off...

Not you again :rolleyes:

Just kidding, welcome back!

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I will never forget his celebration on Imola 94

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47ccbOpItCg

Just shows the man in his essence.

Ok we are dealing with a few issues here, I'll try to clarify each of them separately.

This first video is easily dismissed, a concoted work of video editing, made by an ardent Schumacher hater who actually takes the trouble to remove all anti Schumacher comments there.

My friend, I don't think that video could be misleading. Here in the states, we have Steve Matchett pulling commentator duties for us during races. Now a year or so ago SpeedTV presented a program called 'Decade' that showed past F1 races, with the current commentary crew calling the past race. When they got to showing Imola, Matchett related that everybody knew that Senna was almost certainly fatally injured. Michael certainly knew before stepping onto the podium.

No the Speed TV video is misleading in the sense that Varsha says "at this stage the drivers know that Senna is dead". That is patently not the case, the best commentary on it is from Helmut Uhl, a German journalist who has been following Schumacher's career since the beginning - it may seem a bit sychophantic, but it is the best source I can dig up right now. Unfortunately my copy of Timothy Collings' biography of Schumacher that covers the 94 and 95 seasons is lying in India.

The article is here:

http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/sport/aktu...hael-serie.html

Now that we have a German fan here (Blitzkreig) you can ask him to translate parts of it if you want, someone else translated the relevant part on another forum, I'll just post that here.

Formula 1 goes to Imola. Senna gets his third poles. Schumi second fastest. The formula 1 drives into death... Ratzenberger dies at practice. At race Senna. His steering wheel was broken. He drove 300 into the wall of the Tamburello curve.

A hanging up part perforated his helmet. Schumacher, directly behind Senna, says to me later: "I thought, he will get out of the car and be annoyed." Dr. Maria Teresa Fiandri, doctor in Maggiore hospital in Bologna, Dr. Maria Teresa Fiandri, shocks the world: "Sennas heart stopped beating at 18.40 o'clock."

Schumacher is not informed by its team about it, what happened. Not even when he received the winner cup - his third one. Only in the Benetton bus a friend clears up it. Schumacher cries unrestrainedly. Senna dead. His Idol is dead.

Schumacher didnt go to the funeral. Only after the season he stands alone at Sennas grave in Sao Paulo. The mute conversation in mourning is swallowed by the isolation. Schumi says to me later: "I slept in the first weeks after Sennas death only two, three hours a night. I thought again and again: No, Senna will wake up again. I considered whether I should drive at all." The driver defeated his humanity. Schumacher continues to triumph in this sad and scandalous year.

Michael's respect for Senna's abilities is well on record, I don't need to go into that, I'll just post an example:
Germany's Michael Schumacher said his tears at Sunday's Italian Grand Prix were triggered by memories of the late Ayrton Senna.

"It was a mixture of many things that moved me in Monza," Schumacher told RTL television on Wednesday. "When I thought of Senna, it was really too much for me."

Of course, people who believe in Michael's inherent inhumanity and cynicism sohuldn't be reading this post anyway - I cannot change your views.

But remember, even if I am completely wrong, all tifosi should realize that you don't need to back every Ferrari driver every moment, under every circumstance. A Ferrari driver is not Ferrari. M$ has made many mistakes in the past....

That isn't the point, you are simply picking one person and a few seconds of what was a shameful and forgettable weekend for Formula 1. Michael chose to race, when you race, you race with complete concentration, and someone obviously didn't tell Michael to keep a mask on for the race and not let it slip. All I see is him waving on the podium - probably in response to some fans/ team members, and as someone pointed out, Mika Hakkinen clapping. Mika I believe was criticised for the press conference where he does not talk about Senna, I don't see what Michael did that was really worse than Mika. Even for people who proceed with the implicit 'Michael is evil' assumption surely you wouldn't put Mika in the same category?

The way I look at it is the events were unprecedented, and those people were thrown into prominence, to have their reactions recorded for posterity - they might not have lived up to what you would expect of them, but the unreality of the occasion would contribute to it. I don't know what I would do if I was on the podium at Imola with the claxons blaring, I will certainly not say that I might not for a moment forget the recent events and make a wrong reaction. Different people react to tragedies differently, most public reacitons we see are staged. Anyway it doesn't affect me, if it affects others, so be it, just have the facts clear.

What is not mentioned is the fact that biggest celebration came from Larrini who was celebrating rather violently at the end of the race, seems like he was briefed before the podium. Even in the press conference the drivers do not know that Senna is dead, here is the transcript of the conference http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=169&FS=F1

Again I have little interest in painting Michael's character as some hero - I don't have idols and I don't worship anyone. All I'll say is it is crazy to judge his character on the basis of those few seconds, compare it to the death of the marshal at Melbourne where the drivers had to inform the press, the death at Monza 2000 (who can forget that press conference).

The annoying part is people are all too willing to debate something so utterly pointless, which is part of an event that well deserves to be discussed. Noone is willing to ask why noone took a stand and cancelled the race. The FIA didn't, the team principals didn't show the unity they can show on an occasion like Indy, '05, no drivers came out and refused to race out of principle (I don't blame the drivers or the teams that much - they are consummate professionals, and this stigma about death in F1, and that it should bring things to a standstill is new - deaths weren't rare in F1 not all that long ago, and races always went on, the champion was always crowned). Noone is asking whether the race should have been stopped after debris and a tyre injured many spectators at the start of the race. Noone is arguing whether there should have been a podium ceremony at all.

I'll end my part in this thread by saying that even if you take this situation out of the equation, you are still left with a Schumacher legacy tainted by controversy. He holds quite alot of records, and is probably the best all-around driver on the grid, but he will carry his many questionable exploits with him along with those records.

We seem to expect a level of idelized conduct from him that we simply don't from other sportsmen, how many of the great drivers in modern F1 really live up to it? Not Senna, not Mika, not Prost. Who lives up to it then?

Oh and Rubens was fine by then, I think someone mentioned him.

Here's another tidbit. Senna was going to fly Roland's flag if he won. He already planned to show some respect for a fallen comrade. Contrast that to M$'s attitude. Even in the face of a tragedy (that Senna planned to solumnly observe), M$ still has his little podium celebration with smiles and fist-raising.

So? Flying flags is compulsary to prove your humanity, it is the only acceptable form of conduct? If you don't carry your feelings on your sleeve like Senna did, you don't have any? The splendid orator who reads out a touching poem at the memorial is theo nly one feleing the greif, the quiet mourner who sat and listened is obviously happier about the death? Maybe standing on that podium for a few moments he forgot. Damn him for that, how dare he be anything less that perfect..

I find it especially ironical that the two people who most vocally reminisce about a time where drivers were brave and fatalities were routine condemn Michael for acting in a way that many did, so many races had fatalities then, do you think they didn't celebrate?

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Cav, thanks for the post. I will reserve my right to judge a driver's behaviour by my own standards of sportsmanship and ethics. Those standards of mine are quite clear. I'm not letting other drivers get a free pass, but the discussion was about M$, so my main comments were directed at M$.

Welcome back, btw :D

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