Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted September 19, 2006 First off, I don't believe the Cosworth is the problem. It's doing it's job of powering the car and it's hardly the weakest or most unreliable lump out there. Most of Williams' mechanical failures have been, as aussie says, Williams manufactured parts and nothing to do directly with Cosworth. We can skip this as a problem with Williams. If I look at the cars since 2002, here's what I find that's relevant: 2002, FW24: Designed by Gavin Fisher (no doubt based on a Willis design) it was good enough for 7 poles and 1 win. Without the domination of Ferrari, this could have been a title contender. Most in-house manufacturing and processes/timetables were headed by Patrick Head, who knows how to get the most out of his people. 2003, FW25: Under pressure from BMW, the good FW24 chassis was scrapped and a new one devised for 2003. No less than four designers had their hands into this one: Fisher, Head, Sommerville and Alc#ck. This car was good for a few victories and podiums and JPM looked a title contender until Michelin had to scrap their tyres. 2004, FW26: Infamous walrus-nosed car designed by Gavin Fisher. I'm not sure why he didn't stay with the basic design of the FW25, but the 26 was decent and netted 4th in that year's constructor's championship. 2005, FW27: Another Fisher-designed car and yet another new chassis concept. Notable about this season is that it marked Sam Michael's first season in Daddy Head's shoes. A rocky season at best.....I forgive Sam this season as he had alot to take in, but, like drivers, you only get one season to acclimate to the job. This season saw Williams take a dramatic downturn in performance. 2006, FW28: With the departure of Fisher, Jorg Zander took over the design of the '28. I cannot fault Wiliams for failing to produce a good car this season. Look what they had to tackle: New engine supplier, new tyre supplier, new aero-regulations, new chassis designer (who left mid-season for personal reasons), and a somewhat new Technical Director (Sam). Considering all this, they've not done too badly. To characterize this season as the worst in 20 years is fair. Laying the finger of blame gets a bit difficult. You could blame Sam Michael a bit for not controlling Williams' internal processes as well as Patrick had done. You could also blame Gavin Fisher a bit for constantly scrapping chassis designs that worked in favor of new a new chassis. Blame on Gavin can only go so far because he was brilliant and constantly produced a race-winning car. I would say Williams suffers from a lack of chassis continuity. I would also say Sam Michael is not the manager of resources that Patrick Head is. I would further say that because of Sam's newness to the role, he isn't concentrating on race set-ups and test data analysis like Patrick used to. All these factors have contributed to this abysmal season. If Williams can fight to carry it's small successes from this year over into next year, they might improve. If they don't, then all the blame will lie with Sam Michael. The buck has to stop somewhere.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stopkidding 0 Report post Posted September 20, 2006 If Williams can fight to carry it's small successes from this year over into next year, they might improve. If they don't, then all the blame will lie with Sam Michael. The buck has to stop somewhere.... him and Narain Karthikeyan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted September 20, 2006 I was wondering what Purnell and/or Pitchford are doing these days....it would be a great thing for Williams to land either one of them in Michael's place.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aussief1 4 Report post Posted September 20, 2006 Great post Autumnpuma Yeah I agree Autumnpuma, Williams need people like Purnell and Pitchford in the team to become a force again. I have been amazed that they both didn't find new jobs in F1 after Mr Red Bull told them they where no longer required. Considering the pressure that they where under from the FoMoCo big wigs. What they both did for Jaguar in 2004 was nothing short of awesome. Their management abilities are just what Sam Michael needs right now in order to fully show what he is capable of doing in the role as Technical Director. Without help Sam will be branded as a incompetent TD, something I'm sure he isn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted September 20, 2006 I think it helped that they had Montoya and Ralf, as well. With Wurz and Rosberg as race drivers, I think williams will have the weakest driver line-up of the top 7 teams. No disrespect to them but Rosberg is still quite new and Wurz was never anything special at benetton Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kay 0 Report post Posted September 20, 2006 Not neccesarily, you need two drivers with a certain level of co-operation and Montoya and Ralf did not have that. Plus they both needed a bit of TLC which Williams simply don't do. This year and I believe next year they'll have two drivers who can work well together and push each other and the team forward. That's what is needed in a struggling team, not two bickering drivers to further complicate the situation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted September 20, 2006 I think it helped that they had Montoya and Ralf, as well. With Wurz and Rosberg as race drivers, I think williams will have the weakest driver line-up of the top 7 teams. No disrespect to them but Rosberg is still quite new and Wurz was never anything special at benetton Wurz was a real talent but he had psychological problems... Anyway, I agree with your post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
c21 0 Report post Posted September 20, 2006 I read in Autosport (page 29) that Purnell was sniffing around the paddock in Monza, "Im here just to make sure I stay in touch with whats going on" said Purnell "F1 moves so fast that if you stay out of it for too long you can easilly off the pace" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 I read in Autosport (page 29) that Purnell was sniffing around the paddock in Monza,"Im here just to make sure I stay in touch with whats going on" said Purnell "F1 moves so fast that if you stay out of it for too long you can easilly off the pace" who? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 who? I can't figure out if you're being clever or serious......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wez 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 First off, I don't believe the Cosworth is the problem. It's doing it's job of powering the car and it's hardly the weakest or most unreliable lump out there. Most of Williams' mechanical failures have been, as aussie says, Williams manufactured parts and nothing to do directly with Cosworth. We can skip this as a problem with Williams. I remember when Bmw was still with Williams, blame was permanently thrown between the two as to who was at fault for the car been average (Particularly in 2005). I think this season, as you say above has proven that no matter what engine is in a Williams it is an average car. I have no doubt that a Bmw engine is better than a Cosworth though, so the switch has probably just further hampered an otherwise bad chassis & design! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 I can't figure out if you're being clever or serious......... Is he the Cosworth guy? The only f1 Purnell I knew was Tony Purnell who ran Jaguar with David Pitchforth? I think? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kay 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 I remember when Bmw was still with Williams, blame was permanently thrown between the two as to who was at fault for the car been average (Particularly in 2005).I think this season, as you say above has proven that no matter what engine is in a Williams it is an average car. I have no doubt that a Bmw engine is better than a Cosworth though, so the switch has probably just further hampered an otherwise bad chassis & design! It was BMW who started the slagging off game, hence when they finally split Head went off on a big one to get his own back. Williams soon came out to the press and went against Head and said it didn't reflect the feelings of Williams, so I wouldn't try and rewrite history... especially as Mario came out with very harsh words, which Williams followed up by just sending BMW crates of BMW when doing well. The Williams is not a bad design this year, it's unreliable. BMW engines wouldn't be better because they wouldn't be getting the latest specs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wez 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 Im not so much slagging off Williams but more praising Bmw. To give you an idea, Bmw have been the best at everything they have taken part in: Formula1 World champions with Brabham in the 1980s. British Touring Car champions in 1990s Le Man Winners with Mclaren & Team Bmw in the 1990's European touring Car champions in the 2000's World Touring Car champions in the 2000's Bmw were frustrated that they were not reaching their true potential in F1 and Williams were hampering them. By looking at the performance of Bmw Sauber & Williams this season it is clear to see that this was the case. I have no doubt that within the next 5 years Bmw will be title challengers in Formula 1, and in their rightful place in motorsport! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 The Williams is not a bad design this year, it's unreliable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cavallino 2 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 Well if Williams think a barely mid grid car is a good design... If you remove some of the reliability issues, they may have been 5th or 6th in the championship - when Ferrari or Mclaren have an year like that people are shot (well fired ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 Well if Williams think a barely mid grid car is a good design...If you remove some of the reliability issues, they may have been 5th or 6th in the championship - when Ferrari or Mclaren have an year like that people are shot (well fired ) Indeed. It may not be a terrible chassis but it ain't a good one... The real problem with WIlliams has been a lack of development over the course of the year. Whereas they started out quite competitive, they just haven't developed the car at the same pace. I think the top teams have added something like a second and a half in raw pace over the course of the year while the Williams have maybe added 3-6 tenths. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kay 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 ? It's not a bad design, didn't say it was brilliant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jenson_Rules 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 Indeed Dan. Overall Williams have just fallen behind to a point where they will be lucky to get a point! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
c21 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 Indeed Dan. Overall Williams have just fallen behind to a point where they will be lucky to get a point! Sadly, I smell another Tyrrell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2006 Williams has a problem with trying to pull together too many new elements this year. If they had a consistent chassis, it would eliminate one of the 'new' elements. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wez 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2006 Sadly, I smell another Tyrrell. Tyrrell, Arrows, March, Minardi, Brabham, Lotus.... Although Minardi were never great, they were a longterm fixture in F1! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2006 The day that williams are bought out or drop out would be a sad, sad day. Williams are the main reason why I support cost-cutting measures, we need people like Frank and Patrick in F1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cavallino 2 Report post Posted September 22, 2006 I am afraid budget constraints aren't all of Williams' problems, they simply aren't on the frontier anymore - it will be a sad day if they go out, but the way it looks it might well be natural selection. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2006 I am afraid budget constraints aren't all of Williams' problems, they simply aren't on the frontier anymore - it will be a sad day if they go out, but the way it looks it might well be natural selection. Well its not come to that yet, they're not exactly at crisis point but they do need results otherwise manufacturers like VW won't be interested Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
