cavallino 2 Report post Posted September 22, 2006 Well I have a suspicion that toyota are going to pull out and just back Williams - their decision to give them works engines makes absolutely no sense otherwise. In which case Frank could well have saved the day already. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2006 Well I have a suspicion that toyota are going to pull out and just back Williams - their decision to give them works engines makes absolutely no sense otherwise. In which case Frank could well have saved the day already. That would be great for williams but I cant imagine it happening as Toyota are in it to beat Honda Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2006 Well I have a suspicion that toyota are going to pull out and just back Williams - their decision to give them works engines makes absolutely no sense otherwise. In which case Frank could well have saved the day already. Fantastic insight. I hadn't thought of that possibility. I agree that putting an engine into a team likely to beat the works team is....odd...to say the least. One possible explanation would be perception. Here's what I mean: Most people look at Lexus as a better brand of Toyota, and that would follow to the engine. All of us motorheads know the truth, of course, but the average mommy and daddy out there will think nothing of reading a story about how Williams Lexus beat Toyota in F1. Many people would simply expect that a Lexus would be better than a Toyota. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monza gorilla 1 Report post Posted September 22, 2006 I don't really buy that. Lexus is branded as a luxury marque, not a sporting one. Would branding a toyota engine as a Lexus be worth it in terms of brand awareness? The idea of the Toyota works team pulling out, however, seems much more likely. But then, they did dominate rallying for a time so they certainly have the will to succeed but perhaps think that Frank would be a better bet than their German effort? I have no idea where I'm going with this. Just musing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2006 I don't really buy that. Lexus is branded as a luxury marque, not a sporting one. Would branding a toyota engine as a Lexus be worth it in terms of brand awareness? The idea of the Toyota works team pulling out, however, seems much more likely. But then, they did dominate rallying for a time so they certainly have the will to succeed but perhaps think that Frank would be a better bet than their German effort? I have no idea where I'm going with this. Just musing. Indeed and the sporting among us know that the few sports cars Toyota has produced have come under the Toyota brand name. Perhaps this will change though I doubt it. Anything coming from Lexus is likely to be more luxury than sport and that's something I personally don't care for. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pumpdoc 2 Report post Posted September 23, 2006 Toyota is putting it racing eggs in the NASCAR basket starting next year, they have stated that their goal is too knock off the 3 big automakers in the U.S.---F1 doesn't figure into this but NASCAR would/will Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted September 24, 2006 I still maintain that the average, non-racing person out there would not be surprised to see a Lexus in front of a Toyota. If I remember rightly, Lexus makes a pretty quick little sports car...the SC. I believe that SC beats anything in the Toyota line-up, no? Here are the performance stats of it: http://www.lexus.com/models/sc/performance.html Now in the Rolex Sports Car series, we see Lexus has just won the Championship: http://www.grandamerican.com/CONTENT/Docs/...%20Pointsv2.pdf It's clear to me that Toyota are marketing the Lexus brand to be their sporty brand and that would dovetail nicely with my thoughts that Toyota will not be unhappy if Williams beats the works team. I think Toyota's entry as Toyota in NASCAR is because most NASCAR viewers relate better to Toyota than Lexus. Now, the possibility that Toyota will jump out of F1 exists, but why would they push so hard to get an F1 race at their track if they were going to jump out so soon? I'm not sure on this one. It's very possible that Toyota may leave Lexus in F1 and bail the Toyota name out. My gut says they will be in at least until '08. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FormulaOne 0 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Hi All, I am a new on this network, hence i'll start with an introduction. My name is Rahul, I've been following F1 for quite some time now. My favorite team has been Williams all through.. Posting in response to the thread & my thoughts on what are team is going through, There are times, I feel we have really fallen of the radar after being on here for over couple of decades, we have had few terrible seasons and the last win being JPM's and thats sounds like ancient history. It looks like our team has been existing only on the past accolades, I'm as desperate as any of you to see our team breeze past our current form.. Few concerns on my mind have been the fact that we are moving onto Toyota power next year.. To me it looks like a step backwards to me, as continuity is important to ensure we succeed, I would have personally preferred sticking onto Cosworth power for another season. Now that I've stated Cosworth, I think I better justify my stand..I wouldn't attribute all our failures because we have been using Cosworth engines, I think they did us a pretty decent job.. I believe it has been because of our poor reliability in other areas that caused components stress due to which we could have possiblly had early departure of the engine... Autumnpuma mentioned the name Lexus, If ever I'd get to make a choice.. I would have preferred to see a Williams-Lexus tie-up.. Commenting on Sam Michael, I think he did fairly well with the resources he has been provided... Whats important is we remain grounded of our expectations, these are transitional years... Also, we must not forget that Williams are one of the only legendary fighters today in this sport.. I'm still looking forward to a better 07 with Williams! With regard to our drivers, I am gutted to see Mark leave, leaving aside Nico who is still too raw.. I think Alex would certainly bring in some points consistently... Cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monza gorilla 1 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Welcome, Rahul. Pull up a kitten/chair. Mike, anyone who thinks the Lexus SC is a sporty car is in desperate need of therapy!! It is a bloated parody. And I'd sooner drive a Toyota Celica 190 - better looking by far, and nice and revvy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mock 0 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Narain isn't being tested, it's the parts that are being tested. All the Indian has to do is drive the car to generate data and then, perhaps, provide some feedback. How he's going to do resoundingly well in this regard is beyond me.... QED Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cavallino 2 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 The Lexus question died a while ago, as far as I know it is going to be Williams Toyota. I wish FIAT-Ferrari would field another team once chassis sharing etc. are allowed, there at least 3 names which can be resurrected that I know of Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FormulaOne 0 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Intresting point about Toyota pulling out and backing Williams, However, considering next season all engines will be homologated, I dont see a point in why Williams will have an advantage, if our team doesn't buck up on reliability front. I think Toyota will stay on as constructers contenders.. for yet another couple of seasons. All in All, I think Williams need a built a good relationship with Toyota.. If'd ever want to see a tie-up for power, it should Honda, Toyota or Renault. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 I still maintain that the average, non-racing person out there would not be surprised to see a Lexus in front of a Toyota. If I remember rightly, Lexus makes a pretty quick little sports car...the SC. I believe that SC beats anything in the Toyota line-up, no? Here are the performance stats of it:http://www.lexus.com/models/sc/performance.html Now in the Rolex Sports Car series, we see Lexus has just won the Championship: http://www.grandamerican.com/CONTENT/Docs/...%20Pointsv2.pdf It's clear to me that Toyota are marketing the Lexus brand to be their sporty brand and that would dovetail nicely with my thoughts that Toyota will not be unhappy if Williams beats the works team. I think Toyota's entry as Toyota in NASCAR is because most NASCAR viewers relate better to Toyota than Lexus. Now, the possibility that Toyota will jump out of F1 exists, but why would they push so hard to get an F1 race at their track if they were going to jump out so soon? I'm not sure on this one. It's very possible that Toyota may leave Lexus in F1 and bail the Toyota name out. My gut says they will be in at least until '08. what about toyota's T-SPORT division? i used to see t-sport editions of cars like yaris but these days i dont see any.(unlike hondas typeRs) The Lexus question died a while ago, as far as I know it is going to be Williams Toyota.I wish FIAT-Ferrari would field another team once chassis sharing etc. are allowed, there at least 3 names which can be resurrected that I know of so would i like to see WILLIAMS LAMBORGHINI!!!!!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devilsinskirts 0 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 so would i like to see WILLIAMS LAMBORGHINI!!!!!!!!!! I might be wrong here, but I seem to recall Lamborghini having a very poor venture into F1 in the Eighties??? Perhaps with Lola??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cavallino 2 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Yeah they had a rotten time supplying engines, supplying Minardi at one point I think. Now they are par of Audi VeeDub, and they won't dare enter F1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pumpdoc 2 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Yeah they had a rotten time supplying engines, supplying Minardi at one point I think. Now they are par of Audi VeeDub, and they won't dare enter F1. Speaking of rotton engines remember the Yamahas? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monza gorilla 1 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Peugeot were worse, I think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pumpdoc 2 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Peugeot were worse, I think. I think it's a toss-up Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 past is past! even ferrari sucked at one point! now that audi has taken over lambo, those guys do make fantastic (atleast for their sound of music) engines! i think its high time the big guys enter the(f1) sport..which includes posh and lambo...am i missing out some one??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Mike, anyone who thinks the Lexus SC is a sporty car is in desperate need of therapy!! It is a bloated parody. And I'd sooner drive a Toyota Celica 190 - better looking by far, and nice and revvy. Nonetheless, it's currently the only 'sport' car in Toyota's line-up. The syling of the Lexus seems geared towards attracting the people who want sports cars, but don't know what a sports car is. Perception is everything. Cav, I didn't know the question of branding was settled. Last I heard it was still Williams/Lexus. Is there an FIA entry list for next year out yet? That would have the official name of Williams... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monza gorilla 1 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Nonetheless, it's currently the only 'sport' car in Toyota's line-up. The syling of the Lexus seems geared towards attracting the people who want sports cars, but don't know what a sports car is. Perception is everything. Cav, I didn't know the question of branding was settled. Last I heard it was still Williams/Lexus. Is there an FIA entry list for next year out yet? That would have the official name of Williams... That's a valid point, but over here it is touted as a luxury car. Depends on the market I suppose. Don't Toyota sell this in the US? Much more of a sporting car, and a good drive to boot. Anyhow, I don't think Lexus is appropriate, as they are more an upmarket brand. Unless it's quality they are trying to convey. Good luck to Frank and Patrick, though. they've made a shrewd deal whatever the branding. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cavallino 2 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Isn't there a Toyota convertible, the MR2 Spyder or something like that. usually found in yellow. I've seen quite a few on the streets here. Mike the last I read it would simply be Williams Toyota. PS: I have a vague foggy memory of reading that the Celica is going to be phased out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted September 26, 2006 Yeah, we got the Celica in the US. It was always the budget sports-car in Toyota's line-up (except for it's early days before the Supra); the Supra was the only true sports car Toyota has made recently (production-wise). The Toyota website has no mention of anything sportier than the Camry Solara. The Lexus website has quite alot of mention about performance (even to the extent of comparing the SC to the SLK, Boxter and such). What this looks like from my point-of-view is that the 'Toyota' brand will be the passenger car/truck line and the Lexus brand will be the luxury/sport line. Considering the Celica appears to have been dropped, I would say we are in the middle of Toyota shifting their 'brand perception'. If, as I would guess, they are shifting their 'brand perception', then what better way to nudge it along than to enter Lexus into high-performance racing series. In this light, it's not absurd to think Toyota will focus on NASCAR to sell their passenger cars/trucks and focus Lexus on the markets more viewed by performance fans. I'm not defending Toyota in any way, shape or form, but I'm trying to back up why I stated Toyota might not mind having a Williams/Lexus beat the factory team. It seems as though Lexus is becoming the performance brand, so it would be in Toyota's best interests to let the name ride with a winning F1 team. Hope I haven't belaboured the point Isn't there a Toyota convertible, the MR2 Spyder or something like that. usually found in yellow. I've seen quite a few on the streets here.Mike the last I read it would simply be Williams Toyota. PS: I have a vague foggy memory of reading that the Celica is going to be phased out Williams/Toyota would be fine, I'm sure. If Williams wins, it will still be the Toyota name associated with it, I suppose. The average guy on the street reading headlines won't understand the nuances of F1, but they'll understand that Toyota powered an F1 team to a win and that's what will stick in their minds... The MR2 isn't in production currently and the Celica appears to be phased out, as you've mentioned..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wez 0 Report post Posted September 27, 2006 I think it's a toss-up The Williams Supertech engines beat both of your in the Sh!te engine contest! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted September 27, 2006 Nonetheless, it's currently the only 'sport' car in Toyota's line-up. The syling of the Lexus seems geared towards attracting the people who want sports cars, but don't know what a sports car is. Perception is everything. No, Mike, let's not confuse the term sports car with something that is sold under the Lexus badge. They do not produce any sports cars and never have. Sticking a high-output engine into a luxury coupe does not equate to producing a sports car - quite the opposite in fact. While such a car may run a fast 0-60mph or quarter mile time I dare say that it would fair much worse around a lap of the Nurburgring and would probably not be able to complete four laps at speed period. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites