Webber Regrets Williams Move

[Ptolemy 0]

Think he might be referring to here as in F1 circles.

I'm having a little difficulty following this. Are you suggesting there's no money in or around F1?

[pabloh20 1]

I'm having a little difficulty following this. Are you suggesting there's no money in or around F1?

Sorry, I thought Cav meant there's not that many kids who would be watching F1. In actual fact he is in Oz at the moment!!

[Ptolemy 0]

nah sorry here as in Oz, I am here for another month or so.

My intuitive understanding is people who would drink it already do so.

Then why do they have an advertising campaign?

[ykickamoocow 0]

You're talking about kids. I'm not. Besides, what's Australia's popilation 22 million, 25? What's the age demographic? Lots of "kids" (under 30s) looking for energy for an out door life.

Australia has a population of slightly over 20 million and we are a aging population. Our problem is alot of English, Americans and Japanese like moving to Australia for their retirement so this raises the average age of our population considerably.

[Ptolemy 0]

I'd still be willing to bet a large sum of money that RB are actively trying to get people to buy their product. Either in place of alcohol, or with it.

[bajo39 0]

Of course more Australians will drink Red Bull if Webber is associated with the brand and of course Australia is an important market to Red Bull... What are you guys on about?

I'd still be willing to bet a large sum of money that RB are actively trying to get people to buy their product. Either in place of alcohol, or with it.

I can't imagine drinking that rubbish without alcohol or heavier drugs. Actually, even with alcohol, it's awful... Sigh, I must be getting old

[Ptolemy 0]

Of course more Australians will drink Red Bull if Webber is associated with the brand and of course Australia is an important market to Red Bull... What are you guys on about?

I can't imagine drinking that rubbish without alcohol or heavier drugs. Actually, even with alcohol, it's awful... Sigh, I must be getting old

I prefer beer to Red Bull, actually I prefer beer to just about anything.

I think RB a bit cynical in their endless self publicising of their product.

One one hand they say "Don't drink alcohol and just get wasted - get energised and do something".

If that doesn't work they try "Red Bull and vodka" approach - get wasted and energised.

Suppose they don't care as long as people buy the product.

[bajo39 0]

I think RB a bit cynical in their endless self publicising of their product.

You mean advertising?

When you have a terrible product, as Red Bull do, it's the only option.

[Jamie 0]

I'd still be willing to bet a large sum of money that RB are actively trying to get people to buy their product. Either in place of alcohol, or with it.

Red Bull is allready Massively popular in Australia and the fact of the matter is that Formula one is not very popular (its not even showed live and airs at 10:30pm at night)... i dont think being an Australian is of any advantage in terms of getting a drive in F1, if anything it is a disadvantage because of marketing reasons... Australia only has less than 0.5% of the worlds population. By your logic RB should have signed the hottest young Chinese driver so they can sell red Bull to the 25% of the world's population that lives in China!

I think RB racing's marketing stategy to sell more Red Bull is to win races and the driver that was avaliable and in their opinion was most likely to achieve that and was in their price range was Mark Webber!

Also in terms of your comments relating to STR and why they did not promote internally. I think the answer to this is the fact that the RBR and STR cars will be almost identical newey designed cars next year so they will in effect be getting a promotion anyway as they should have a car that is more competative next year (probally not top tier but in the second tier with the Japanese cars and BMW).

As for David Coultard Vs Mark Webber... only time will tell.

[Ptolemy 0]

Red Bull may be massive - although opinion on this forum seems to vary - but that doesn't mean they aren't trying to increase their market share.

I'm not saying the being Australian is an advantage in F1, but Webber's CV is less than impressive and he's manged to get a (potentially) better drive than his results suggest he should.

WHat I am saying is that if Red Bull can then utilise their new signing to promote their product in the driver's home nation this is an asset in the driver's favour. An additional few million

[Jamie 0]

Red Bull may be massive - although opinion on this forum seems to vary - but that doesn't mean they aren't trying to increase their market share.

I'm not saying the being Australian is an advantage in F1, but Webber's CV is less than impressive and he's manged to get a (potentially) better drive than his results suggest he should.

WHat I am saying is that if Red Bull can then utilise their new signing to promote their product in the driver's home nation this is an asset in the driver's favour. An additional few million

[Autumnpuma 0]

Yes, it is odd that the supposed junior team isn't promoting drivers to the mother ship. Maybe they only get promoted if they're any good, and neither Speed or Liuzzi strike me as anything special. But if they're no good, why are they kept on? With Speed (aka Captain Slow) it must, of course, be a marketing device but what of Liuzzi? More questions than answers, as usual. did RBR approach Webber, or was it Flavio approaching RBR? I don't recall.

A quick jaunt over to the Toro Rosso website will explain much. Red Bull wants to build an image of youth, irreverance and 'hip-ness (for lack of a better word). Scott Speed is the average early-twenties kid that's active and would frequent 'myspace.com'. Speed talks like the typical unruly, popular American kid (even flashing the absurd 'player' hand-sign in interviews). This is the target demographic for Red Bull in the States. Liuzzi is the European version of Speed (Ptolemy hit the nail on the head when he brought up the Vodka Red Bull drink...nobody over 30 would order that crap).

The true racing team is RBR. The true marketing team is STR. There may be some overlap, but in general terms, what I say holds true, no?

When I first read that I thought "yeah, that explains a lot", but now I'm not so sure.

Webber is managed by a company that Flavio runs. OK.

Flavio works for the RenaultF1 Team, true.

Renault will be supplying engines to RBR, also an indisputable fact.

But the Renault F1 engine manufacturer is not the same company as RenaultF1.

So does Flavio have the authority or the ability to ensure that his client is part of the deal?

Flavio is happy to talk (albeit rather incoherently) about the engine deal, but was he actually involved in it?

Surely the Renault engine people want to see their product put it its best use, and would they be willing to compromise that for the sake of Flavio's management company's customer? I can't see that myself.

My conclusion remains unchanged - Webber is crap. Red Bull have chosen him.

Flavio runs Mecachrome, which, incidentally, also assembles the current Renault F1 engines. I maintain that Webber was part of the engine deal.

[Autumnpuma 0]

On the name and origin of Ptolemy: Would George Bush, whose ancestry is quite pure and tracks back to Britain in less time than Caesarion's ancestry tracked back to Sotor, be considered American or British?

If you are arguing race, then you have a point. Craniofacial anthropometry would agree that the Ptolemeic rulers were of a different 'race' than the native Egyptians, but the argument in favor of identities based on nations seems stronger. Basically, where do your loyalties lie? Ptolemy Sotor always held Egypt firm, so I consider him Egyptian (of Greek descent). So, too, would I consider Africans living in America to be Americans, (of African descent), even though the culture and race would match well to Africans living in Pretoria. Simpy because Sotor brought aspects of his culture to Egypt with him doesn't erase the fact that he controlled a country called Egypt, and as such was Egyptian.

Think of your last example. Britain had Roman government, culture, intermarrying between peoples, but in the end, Britain held firm to themselves, not Rome. The peoples of those Blessed Isles considered themselves British, not Roman.

[monza gorilla 1]

A good point regarding STR, Mike. I'd not really considered the 'hip' factor. Maybe I'm too old to have noticed.........

I also agree with you regarding the cultural/national/racial identity whatsit. To me, the Ptolemaic dynasties were Egyptian, whatever their antecedents. If I were to consider it, that is. Which I often don't.

I'm in an agreeable mood. Must open another bottle.

[Autumnpuma 0]

A good point regarding STR, Mike. I'd not really considered the 'hip' factor. Maybe I'm too old to have noticed.........

I also agree with you regarding the cultural/national/racial identity whatsit. To me, the Ptolemaic dynasties were Egyptian, whatever their antecedents. If I were to consider it, that is. Which I often don't.

I'm in an agreeable mood. Must open another bottle.

I'm loafing at work....I must wait a few more hours yet before I, too, can open a bottle What's on the menu tonight, Russ? I've got Sam Adams Winter Lager waiting for me at home.

[monza gorilla 1]

I'm all out of beer! But, I'm enjoying a very nice Tempranillo from Castillo de Calatrava. Very gluggable . Tomorrow night I'll be quaffing some ale (same as drinking but you tend to spill more) at the pub, courtesy of Nobby's brewery. And only 200 yards door to door!

[Autumnpuma 0]

I'm all out of beer! But, I'm enjoying a very nice Tempranillo from Castillo de Calatrava. Very gluggable . Tomorrow night I'll be quaffing some ale (same as drinking but you tend to spill more) at the pub, courtesy of Nobby's brewery. And only 200 yards door to door!

I have quaffed before and will do so again . 200 yards? I must look into re-locating to England. In America, we don't have the same 'pub' traditions you Brits have (dammit) It's very impersonal over here.

[Ptolemy 0]

On the name and origin of Ptolemy: Would George Bush, whose ancestry is quite pure and tracks back to Britain in less time than Caesarion's ancestry tracked back to Sotor, be considered American or British?

If you are arguing race, then you have a point. Craniofacial anthropometry would agree that the Ptolemeic rulers were of a different 'race' than the native Egyptians, but the argument in favor of identities based on nations seems stronger. Basically, where do your loyalties lie? Ptolemy Sotor always held Egypt firm, so I consider him Egyptian (of Greek descent). So, too, would I consider Africans living in America to be Americans, (of African descent), even though the culture and race would match well to Africans living in Pretoria. Simpy because Sotor brought aspects of his culture to Egypt with him doesn't erase the fact that he controlled a country called Egypt, and as such was Egyptian.

Think of your last example. Britain had Roman government, culture, intermarrying between peoples, but in the end, Britain held firm to themselves, not Rome. The peoples of those Blessed Isles considered themselves British, not Roman.

On the origin of the name Ptolemy, it's Greek.

On the national identity of Ptolemaios Sator he was Macedonian-Greek. He wasn't Egyptian of Greek descent - he went to school with Alexander the Great! Technically he was Macedonian, but by that time the Macedonians had completely adopted classical Greek culture, although the Greeks considered them less than Greek the Macedonians didn't. He may have died in Egypt, but Nelson died at sea - that doesn't make him a fish.

As for the Ptolemaic dynasty they were basically Greek with elements of Egyptian culture acquired over three centuries . Under the Ptolemies Alexandria became the centre of learning - in the Greek world. They spoke Greek. They had Greek culture. They had Greek names. They were Greek. The king and his consort claimed to be descendants of Osiris and Isis, but I suspect that wasn't actually true and was just a ploy to control the locals. They obviously picked up elements of Egyptian culture, but I wear jeans, it doesn't make me American.

With regard to Roman Britain they had Roman government - in Rome. The people happily embraced Roman culture, including the language, at the same time abandoning their own culture. If you look at the archaeological discoveries huge amounts of Samian ware (pottery) show up from even before Claudius arrived and the amount of locally made pottery declines very rapidly until there is absolutely none after a century or so. The people were so dependent upon Rome they stopped making their own cups. Although some British deities were identified and merged with Roman gods (Sullis Minerva) there were huge Roman temples in the cities. They even abandoned their own gods.

The Britons held themselves so firm in their blessed isles that after the legions withdrew the Britons sent a letter begging for them to come back and defend them from the barbarians. They were told to "look to their own defences" in 410 CE and within a century and a half the Anglo-Saxons had overrun nearly all of what would become England.

++++++

What are you some sort of marketing genious?

What?

And I had no idea Austria had such a small population - apparently it's just over 8 million - but I believe the reasoning holds firm if the example doesn't.

[bajo39 0]

I must look into re-locating to England.

I'm doing that right now - turns out my mother was a British citizen at the date of my birth and that entitles me to British citizenship as well - but not for the friendly atmosphere at the pubs nor the lard-cooked fish and chips either.

[monza gorilla 1]

We welcome you to the mother country, Dan. but what possible reason could you have for becoming a British citizen?

Ptolemy, what say you to Mike's first paragraph? And I don't think anyone is arguing the origins of the name. And what has where you die got to do with anything? Where you are born is more important in this case.

[Autumnpuma 0]

On the origin of the name Ptolemy, it's Greek.

You misunderstood me..I was identifying my response to the discussion, as in a forum like ours the conversation goes astray sometimes...I know perfectly well that the name is Greek!

On the national identity of Ptolemaios Sator he was Macedonian-Greek. He wasn't Egyptian of Greek descent - he went to school with Alexander the Great! Technically he was Macedonian, but by that time the Macedonians had completely adopted classical Greek culture, although the Greeks considered them less than Greek the Macedonians didn't. He may have died in Egypt, but Nelson died at sea - that doesn't make him a fish.

Yes, yes, I would have thought it obvious that I know all this already. Restating facts we both know doesn't make your argument better Ptolemy was born and raised a Greek. When he became ruler of Egypt, and put Egypt's interests forefront in his mind, he became Egyptian. My argument is a nationistic one. The original point of contention is that you seem to think the name Ptolemy should be thought of as a Greek name with Greek connotations. Incorrect. Most people think Egypt (not incorrectly, I might add) when we hear the name 'Ptolemy'.

With regard to Roman Britain they had Roman government - in Rome.

Yes and no. The overall government was in Rome, but the regional government held the power in Britain. Their daily lives were governed by a mix of British and Roman officials who lived in Britain.

Ptol, I'm at work so I can't dedicate the amount of time required for this, but I'm greatly enjoying this. My formal training was in Anthropology, so I'm a bit excited to see a fellow (of sorts) on this forum. I must say, I'm fighting a losing battle here, because really all I have is the notion of nationality creating loyalty and identity, but I shall fight on!

Look for a response later

[bajo39 0]

Yes, yes, I would have thought it obvious that I know all this already.

Yes, but how do you know all of this?

[Ptolemy 0]

On the name and origin of Ptolemy: Would George Bush, whose ancestry is quite pure and tracks back to Britain in less time than Caesarion's ancestry tracked back to Sotor, be considered American or British?

Do you mean this?

First of the term "quite pure" is more than a little worrying.

But with regard to Americans generally, quite clearly America has it's own culture that is a consequence of a melding of various immigrant groups and a range of African cultures. This culture is related to, but has obvious differences to to the cultures that gave rise to it. G.W. is a product of that American culture. He is American. The Ptolemies, on the other hand, held onto their Greek culture.

G.W. bush speaks (if that's the term for the appalling drivel that comes from his mouth) English. English is the first language of the country he comes from. If he lived in America but spoke Russian as his first language, founded a Russian library, encouraged Russian scholars to come and study in Russian, gave his children Russian names and regarded Russia as his home I wouldn't say he was American.

++++

Edit

People may consider Ptolemy to be an Egytian name, but it's Greek. The name Michael is English. It can be used by Germans, Poles, Danes or Inuit, but it's still English. Someone once told me the Colossus of Rhodes straddled the harbour and provided the evidence to support this claim of "everyone knows that" - everyone may think the moon is made of cheese - this doesn't make it so.

When he became ruler of Egypt, and put Egypt's interests forefront in his mind, he became Egyptian

He may have put Egypt to the forefront of his mind, but it was a Greco-Egypt that had its place in a Hellenic empire.

[bajo39 0]

G.W. bush speaks (if that's the term for the appalling drivel that comes from his mouth) English American, and not very well. English is the first language of the country he comes from.

[Autumnpuma 0]

First of the term "quite pure" is more than a little worrying.

Don't go there, your conclusions would be incorrect. The comment 'pure' was in reference to his racial ethnicity. Caucasoid. He is not mixed with either Negroid or Mongoloid, just as Ptolemy was Caucasoid and not mixed with the Egyptian (which is not a race, by the way) Negroid/Mongoloidal peoples.