Clicky

Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Quiet One

"Most Successful" vs "Best"

Recommended Posts

OK, this is my first post and will not be a short one, and I apologize for it.

First, I confess I am a devoted fan of Alonso and Renault, and next year my heart will be split in two. :(

I hope my previous sentence does not discourage the MS/Ferrari fans to continue reading with an open mind what I am trying to convey.

I have noticed that many MS fans usually start chanting all the records that Schumi broke as soon as one starts a conversation over drivers talents. Same happens with other drivers (Ayrton comes to mind and, yes, even Alonso fans sometimes do that too) I think there is a confussion between being the most successful driver in F1 history (and you have to be a royal imbecile not to concede that title to MS) but that does not necesarily means he MUST be the best driver. Ford Model T or VW Beetle were the most succesful cars...would you buy any of those above any other? Ok, a lame comparison, i know <_< Anyways, I think without any doubt that MS was a great, great driver. A legend, no doubt (yeah, I hate his guts but I am not blind) Yet, I weigh the following characteristics when trying to judge how good was he:

Negative

1) He had a car far above the others by any standards (I think Ferrari's domination was like no other in previous F1 eras) Question here would be: Could any other driver do the same, provided he had the same car? My guess is that Ide would have not :mf_tongue: but certainly Alonso has the cold blood to control a race in a much superior car (like he proved in oh so many boring races lately)

2) He had everyone in his team and a team mate ready to serve him as a King. An advantage no other driver had. JPM and KR fought bitterly and FA had Fisi (enough said...)

3) Cheating was not something he did once or twice (like Ayrton, Alonso, Prost, Villeneuve...) sometimes it was frighteningly close to a modus operandi. This is the saddest part. I will never know why he did all these "debatable manoeuvres" (ahem) He did not need them to win...he could have easily broke 90% of the records he break and won at least 6 championships without needing to cheat even once. He had the talent and the car. Yet, he did and forced left many MS fans to try to explain the unexplainable. And no, I do not think the will to win is enough excuse for cheating. Otherwise it would be as good to carry a gun and start shooting all the opposition before the race starts.

4) He was never good (at least since the Benetton days) at being in the middle of the pack. Interlagos amazing recovery from the back was possible largely because 80% of the cars he passed moved swiftly of the way to avoid any controversy. Against the only 3 that tried to fight him he almost lost his car (Fisi, Kubica and Kimi). In that respect, I find it much better the recovery of Button (a guy I like even less than MS) which had to fight his way up. Not to mention Taku who really shined.

Positive:

1) He rarely made mistakes. This year Alonso won because he made fewer mistakes (leaving aside any other considerations) Schumi always gave a lesson on how to control everything: driving, tyre temperature, pit stops, strategy changes. He was the best at that, no question!

2) He had everyone commited to him, but because he also gave it all back. All us poor non MS lovers are always amazed at the dog like faithfulness of his pit crew, teammates and fans. But I must concede he won it all and worked hard to earn that faithfulness.

3) He never gave up. Yes, that made him cheat 10% of the time but that also made him win the remaining 90% I will never forgive him for cheating, but I will never be so close minded as to not see his greatness beyond that.

4) He had "it". No matter the car, no matter the particular conditions of a race, if you are a true F1 fan (not an MS or FA or whoever fan) you will notice that some drivers have an edge that none of the other mortal drivers can achieve. MS had it, FA certainly has it, Ayrton, Fangio, G.Villeneuve had it too. I think Kubica may have it and I hope (ok this is totally irrational, I know) that Vitantonio Liuzzi has it too (Yeah, you do not need glasses, i wrote V.Liuzzi! And no, I am not even italian!)

Ok i wrote too much and again I am sorry. Conclusion: was Schumi the most succesful driver? what? Hell yeah. Was he the best? Mmmmh...I do not think so but he was certainly at the very very top (darn him!)

All I know is that I never hated a driver as much as i hated him, but I will say goodbye to you, Michael cheater-spoiled-tenacious-talented Schumacher with a standing ovation. You deserve no less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, this is my first post and will not be a short one, and I apologize for it.

First, I confess I am a devoted fan of Alonso and Renault, and next year my heart will be split in two. :(

I hope my previous sentence does not discourage the MS/Ferrari fans to continue reading with an open mind what I am trying to convey.

I have noticed that many MS fans usually start chanting all the records that Schumi broke as soon as one starts a conversation over drivers talents. Same happens with other drivers (Ayrton comes to mind and, yes, even Alonso fans sometimes do that too) I think there is a confussion between being the most successful driver in F1 history (and you have to be a royal imbecile not to concede that title to MS) but that does not necesarily means he MUST be the best driver. Ford Model T or VW Beetle were the most succesful cars...would you buy any of those above any other? Ok, a lame comparison, i know <_< Anyways, I think without any doubt that MS was a great, great driver. A legend, no doubt (yeah, I hate his guts but I am not blind) Yet, I weigh the following characteristics when trying to judge how good was he:

Negative

1) He had a car far above the others by any standards (I think Ferrari's domination was like no other in previous F1 eras) Question here would be: Could any other driver do the same, provided he had the same car? My guess is that Ide would have not :mf_tongue: but certainly Alonso has the cold blood to control a race in a much superior car (like he proved in oh so many boring races lately)

2) He had everyone in his team and a team mate ready to serve him as a King. An advantage no other driver had. JPM and KR fought bitterly and FA had Fisi (enough said...)

3) Cheating was not something he did once or twice (like Ayrton, Alonso, Prost, Villeneuve...) sometimes it was frighteningly close to a modus operandi. This is the saddest part. I will never know why he did all these "debatable manoeuvres" (ahem) He did not need them to win...he could have easily broke 90% of the records he break and won at least 6 championships without needing to cheat even once. He had the talent and the car. Yet, he did and forced left many MS fans to try to explain the unexplainable. And no, I do not think the will to win is enough excuse for cheating. Otherwise it would be as good to carry a gun and start shooting all the opposition before the race starts.

4) He was never good (at least since the Benetton days) at being in the middle of the pack. Interlagos amazing recovery from the back was possible largely because 80% of the cars he passed moved swiftly of the way to avoid any controversy. Against the only 3 that tried to fight him he almost lost his car (Fisi, Kubica and Kimi). In that respect, I find it much better the recovery of Button (a guy I like even less than MS) which had to fight his way up. Not to mention Taku who really shined.

Positive:

1) He rarely made mistakes. This year Alonso won because he made fewer mistakes (leaving aside any other considerations) Schumi always gave a lesson on how to control everything: driving, tyre temperature, pit stops, strategy changes. He was the best at that, no question!

2) He had everyone commited to him, but because he also gave it all back. All us poor non MS lovers are always amazed at the dog like faithfulness of his pit crew, teammates and fans. But I must concede he won it all and worked hard to earn that faithfulness.

3) He never gave up. Yes, that made him cheat 10% of the time but that also made him win the remaining 90% I will never forgive him for cheating, but I will never be so close minded as to not see his greatness beyond that.

4) He had "it". No matter the car, no matter the particular conditions of a race, if you are a true F1 fan (not an MS or FA or whoever fan) you will notice that some drivers have an edge that none of the other mortal drivers can achieve. MS had it, FA certainly has it, Ayrton, Fangio, G.Villeneuve had it too. I think Kubica may have it and I hope (ok this is totally irrational, I know) that Vitantonio Liuzzi has it too (Yeah, you do not need glasses, i wrote V.Liuzzi! And no, I am not even italian!)

Ok i wrote too much and again I am sorry. Conclusion: was Schumi the most succesful driver? what? Hell yeah. Was he the best? Mmmmh...I do not think so but he was certainly at the very very top (darn him!)

All I know is that I never hated a driver as much as i hated him, but I will say goodbye to you, Michael cheater-spoiled-tenacious-talented Schumacher with a standing ovation. You deserve no less.

Welcome to the forums. And nice first post :thbup: Quite a good and long read. thanks. You have summed up almost everything that could be said but i coud argue with a few negitive reasons but then won't/can't any MS/Ferrari fan? so it's all good and welcome again.

PS:- Oh quiet one, you should speak up more in the forums.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to agree most of the point. MS Might have gotton even more WDC if he stay on in Benetton. But he left and join Ferrari when Ferrari was doing badly and work up from there. I respect MS not because he is on a Fast Ferrari but not to forget his debut on a Jordon against those Turbo's Renault/Honda and being able to Qualify 6th on the grid. Also he begins a new era of flat out cornering.

I also do agree FA is a great driver. He will become a records breaking Driver in years to come. But he might not get no. of fan MS had.

Kubica is lucky to earn some great racing experiences this year and I believe he will be better next years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have to agree most of the point. MS Might have gotton even more WDC if he stay on in Benetton. But he left and join Ferrari when Ferrari was doing badly and work up from there. I respect MS not because he is on a Fast Ferrari but not to forget his debut on a Jordon against those Turbo's Renault/Honda and being able to Qualify 6th on the grid. Also he begins a new era of flat out cornering.

I also do agree FA is a great driver. He will become a records breaking Driver in years to come. But he might not get no. of fan MS had.

Kubica is lucky to earn some great racing experiences this year and I believe he will be better next years.

he actually quallified 7th in that race

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though I disagree with plenty of your points, ('cheating' in a non specified way- those incidents haven't been blamed on him fully, exept '97 in Herez where still it's not beyond reasonable doubt(personally I don't mind if he did it on purpose or not :D ) and about the ability to fight through the field,which I believe he is a master at) and a few others, however this must be the most civilized critism of MS I read in here and therefore I 'm happy to welcome you to the forums :thbup: Unfortunately MS has retired but it seems we 'll be debating about him for a long time :lol: !

As far as the thread title it really is almost impossible to be able to separate the 'most successful' and the 'the best' and still be fair to any of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this will be my first post as well. I just want to say that I totally agree with you when you said if you give a driver like Alonso the best car he will be able to win as much as Michael had won, but I must also add that I remember very clearly that in the year 1999, when Michael had his injury, back then he never drove the fastest car in the grid and more important he was not the most successful driver in history like he is now yet he was regarded as one of the best ever. so Michael was considered the best or one of the best much before his dominant days with Ferrari started.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome mate, Hopefully you will continue to support Fernando!

Good first post By the way!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would disagree with the negative points as although Schumi did indeed have the whole team all working just for him, thats not luck - that was shumacher's doing.

The second point i disagree with (having car superior to everyone else's) as I believe schuey only had the best car for 4 or 5 of his 16 seasons.

And saying he's no good in the middle of the pack is just weird, how many times has he fought his way through to the front over the years!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many thanks for the encouraging words and welcomes! I was truly afraid all the replies I would get would be something like "Shut up, n00b!".

Regarding some of the objections you made to my post:

1) Schumacher being a great driver in his first times at Ferrari: conceded! True, the Ferrari sucked at the time yet he made it shine nonetheless. Point for him.

2) His middle pack skills: I knew that would cause some controversy. Personally, I always felt that other drivers were always hesitant to put up a good fight against him (except a a handful, most notably JPM in an almost primitive way!) But, like I said, I am an Alonso's fan and maybe I am biased by that. Its a matter of opinion.

3) Jemstride's objections: You are correct, he earned that support, and that is why I put that characteristic both in the negative side and in the positive side. Let me make this clear, I do not consider a bad side of MS having all the team behind him. I put that as a negative characteristic only because it distorted his performance when compared with other drivers who had to fight against the opposition AND his own team. Once again, yes, he EARNED that support and FA must learn that if he wants to succeed at McLaren.

Wez and goferrarigo: Thank you very much! And yes, I will support Alonso through good times and bad times! Same goes for Renault!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Many thanks for the encouraging words and welcomes! I was truly afraid all the replies I would get would be something like "Shut up, n00b!".

we only say that if you come and start saying stuff like achumi sucks for no rhime or reason and giving stupid reasons.

Regarding some of the objections you made to my post:

1) Schumacher being a great driver in his first times at Ferrari: conceded! True, the Ferrari sucked at the time yet he made it shine nonetheless. Point for him.

2) His middle pack skills: I knew that would cause some controversy. Personally, I always felt that other drivers were always hesitant to put up a good fight against him (except a a handful, most notably JPM in an almost primitive way!) But, like I said, I am an Alonso's fan and maybe I am biased by that. Its a matter of opinion.

3) Jemstride's objections: You are correct, he earned that support, and that is why I put that characteristic both in the negative side and in the positive side. Let me make this clear, I do not consider a bad side of MS having all the team behind him. I put that as a negative characteristic only because it distorted his performance when compared with other drivers who had to fight against the opposition AND his own team. Once again, yes, he EARNED that support and FA must learn that if he wants to succeed at McLaren.

Wez and goferrarigo: Thank you very much! And yes, I will support Alonso through good times and bad times! Same goes for Renault!

welcome.

But what would you do if Alonso wins the championship(don't hink it wouldhappen for a few years) and reno finish 4th or 5th?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OK, this is my first post and will not be a short one, and I apologize for it.

First, I confess I am a devoted fan of Alonso and Renault, and next year my heart will be split in two. :(

I hope my previous sentence does not discourage the MS/Ferrari fans to continue reading with an open mind what I am trying to convey.

I have noticed that many MS fans usually start chanting all the records that Schumi broke as soon as one starts a conversation over drivers talents. Same happens with other drivers (Ayrton comes to mind and, yes, even Alonso fans sometimes do that too) I think there is a confussion between being the most successful driver in F1 history (and you have to be a royal imbecile not to concede that title to MS) but that does not necesarily means he MUST be the best driver. Ford Model T or VW Beetle were the most succesful cars...would you buy any of those above any other? Ok, a lame comparison, i know <_< Anyways, I think without any doubt that MS was a great, great driver. A legend, no doubt (yeah, I hate his guts but I am not blind) Yet, I weigh the following characteristics when trying to judge how good was he:

Negative

1) He had a car far above the others by any standards (I think Ferrari's domination was like no other in previous F1 eras) Question here would be: Could any other driver do the same, provided he had the same car? My guess is that Ide would have not :mf_tongue: but certainly Alonso has the cold blood to control a race in a much superior car (like he proved in oh so many boring races lately)

2) He had everyone in his team and a team mate ready to serve him as a King. An advantage no other driver had. JPM and KR fought bitterly and FA had Fisi (enough said...)

3) Cheating was not something he did once or twice (like Ayrton, Alonso, Prost, Villeneuve...) sometimes it was frighteningly close to a modus operandi. This is the saddest part. I will never know why he did all these "debatable manoeuvres" (ahem) He did not need them to win...he could have easily broke 90% of the records he break and won at least 6 championships without needing to cheat even once. He had the talent and the car. Yet, he did and forced left many MS fans to try to explain the unexplainable. And no, I do not think the will to win is enough excuse for cheating. Otherwise it would be as good to carry a gun and start shooting all the opposition before the race starts.

4) He was never good (at least since the Benetton days) at being in the middle of the pack. Interlagos amazing recovery from the back was possible largely because 80% of the cars he passed moved swiftly of the way to avoid any controversy. Against the only 3 that tried to fight him he almost lost his car (Fisi, Kubica and Kimi). In that respect, I find it much better the recovery of Button (a guy I like even less than MS) which had to fight his way up. Not to mention Taku who really shined.

Positive:

1) He rarely made mistakes. This year Alonso won because he made fewer mistakes (leaving aside any other considerations) Schumi always gave a lesson on how to control everything: driving, tyre temperature, pit stops, strategy changes. He was the best at that, no question!

2) He had everyone commited to him, but because he also gave it all back. All us poor non MS lovers are always amazed at the dog like faithfulness of his pit crew, teammates and fans. But I must concede he won it all and worked hard to earn that faithfulness.

3) He never gave up. Yes, that made him cheat 10% of the time but that also made him win the remaining 90% I will never forgive him for cheating, but I will never be so close minded as to not see his greatness beyond that.

4) He had "it". No matter the car, no matter the particular conditions of a race, if you are a true F1 fan (not an MS or FA or whoever fan) you will notice that some drivers have an edge that none of the other mortal drivers can achieve. MS had it, FA certainly has it, Ayrton, Fangio, G.Villeneuve had it too. I think Kubica may have it and I hope (ok this is totally irrational, I know) that Vitantonio Liuzzi has it too (Yeah, you do not need glasses, i wrote V.Liuzzi! And no, I am not even italian!)

Ok i wrote too much and again I am sorry. Conclusion: was Schumi the most succesful driver? what? Hell yeah. Was he the best? Mmmmh...I do not think so but he was certainly at the very very top (darn him!)

All I know is that I never hated a driver as much as i hated him, but I will say goodbye to you, Michael cheater-spoiled-tenacious-talented Schumacher with a standing ovation. You deserve no less.

Welcome.

A few points of interest amongst a lot of subjective drivel. Like so many here, you allow your personal feelings about a driver (whom you know nothing about personally) to cloud your judgement. It is impossible to say who is or was the best driver of all time but i think it's probably fair to rank Michael as one of the the best all rounders.

Why do you think Michael is spoiled? Who has spoiled him exactly? Do you know anything about his roots or his upbringing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But what would you do if Alonso wins the championship(don't hink it wouldhappen for a few years) and reno finish 4th or 5th?

Blame Fifi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Welcome.

A few points of interest amongst a lot of subjective drivel. Like so many here, you allow your personal feelings about a driver (whom you know nothing about personally) to cloud your judgement. It is impossible to say who is or was the best driver of all time but i think it's probably fair to rank Michael as one of the the best all rounders.

Why do you think Michael is spoiled? Who has spoiled him exactly? Do you know anything about his roots or his upbringing?

Ouch.

Well, of course I am being subjective. That is why firstly I stated that I was an Alonso/Renault fan, so you could know from which point of view I was speaking. This is no exact science and personal feelings play a big role in these judgements. MS is not the best driver FOR ME. Was Ayrton better than Prost? Ascari or Graham Hill better than Fangio? Yoong better than Karthikeyan? Who knows for sure! But it is fun to discuss it, nonetheless :D I am sure I will not regard MS as the best driver of all times compared to the likes of Ayrton, Prost, Villeneuve Sr. and FA (the Fantastic Four, for me) But that is a personal choice based only partially on cold facts.

About the word "spolied", well...you said my personal feelings clouded my judgement, and it seems the same can be said of you, with all respect. That last phrase was a sort of "ha-ha, only serious" expression of the mixed emotions MS causes. BTW, by "spoiled" I meant "spoiled by his team", maybe its an unfortunate choice of words (english is not my native language, as you may have noticed :D ) I never meant to judge his upbringing (his parents worked hard to help him through his younger years at kart, that much I know)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ouch.

Well, of course I am being subjective. That is why firstly I stated that I was an Alonso/Renault fan, so you could know from which point of view I was speaking. This is no exact science and personal feelings play a big role in these judgements. MS is not the best driver FOR ME. Was Ayrton better than Prost? Ascari or Graham Hill better than Fangio? Yoong better than Karthikeyan? Who knows for sure! But it is fun to discuss it, nonetheless :D I am sure I will not regard MS as the best driver of all times compared to the likes of Ayrton, Prost, Villeneuve Sr. and FA (the Fantastic Four, for me) But that is a personal choice based only partially on cold facts.

About the word "spolied", well...you said my personal feelings clouded my judgement, and it seems the same can be said of you, with all respect. That last phrase was a sort of "ha-ha, only serious" expression of the mixed emotions MS causes. BTW, by "spoiled" I meant "spoiled by his team", maybe its an unfortunate choice of words (english is not my native language, as you may have noticed :D ) I never meant to judge his upbringing (his parents worked hard to help him through his younger years at kart, that much I know)

Would you buy a book about a sport by an author who has a clear one sided view on something though? It's just that there have been a hundred posts like the one you have submitted and i long for someone to be objective.

Also, be clear; I am a Schumacher fan but i am quite open to discussing his failings, shortcomings and scruples.

All that aside, it's clear that you have a lot to say and that's great. I look forward to seeing more from you.

Welcome once again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Would you buy a book about a sport by an author who has a clear one sided view on something though? It's just that there have been a hundred posts like the one you have submitted and i long for someone to be objective. :blowup::blowup::blowup:

Also, be clear; I am a Schumacher fan but i am quite open to discussing his failings, shortcomings and scruples.

All that aside, it's clear that you have a lot to say and that's great. I look forward to seeing more from you.

Welcome once again.

(Don't expect as much writing as I am doing now in future posts lol)

I never intended to pose an objective view on the MS vs FA issue. Far from it, the first thing I stated was my personal favorite, just so you can weigh my sayings against my personal tastes. Not the most objective of the approaches, i know. I just wanted it to be as sincere as possible. I didn't intend to give you the truth about Schumacher, just a glimpse of what a non-MS fan thinks about him.

Like you, and most people I read in the forums (I've been reading them for quite some time before daring to write) I try to be as moderated as possible. And yes, I might be a Renault fan and an Alonso fan, but above all I am an F1 fan and I had never had any scruples criticizing Alonso's outbursts or Briatore's childish attacks :blowup: .

Again, thank you very much for your kindness, I've learned a lot from reading these forums and you people!

My next topic will be: "Vitantonio Liuzzi: the man behind the Legend" :naughty:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah very clever work there, you pretend to be objective, you envelope your statement in with disclaimers and apologies and then you spout the same drivel that Alonso fans here love to. Sorry, that odesn't buy you any credibility. We've heard it all before.

1) He had a car far above the others by any standards (I think Ferrari's domination was like no other in previous F1 eras)

He had it for two years, and what people like you seem to forget is he absolutely flattened the rest of the field, sure a few other drivers could have won in those cars, but would they have achieved that level of domination? Not a chance in hell.

Quite clearly you lack historical knowledge of the sport, so you are unaware of how many championships were won with the best car on the grid, and how many of the great drivers did iti nthe best car on the grid.

2) He had everyone in his team and a team mate ready to serve him as a King. An advantage no other driver had. JPM and KR fought bitterly and FA had Fisi (enough said...)

Again the lack of any sense of history, coupled with lack of insight I'd presume if you don't know that Mclaren usedteam orders a aplenty last year, as did Renault, and Renault used them more this year than in any past year by Ferrari, barring the Irvine years perhaps.

3) Cheating was not something he did once or twice (like Ayrton, Alonso, Prost, Villeneuve...)

Once. And not premeditated. You are probably unaware of the huge difference between premeditated crimes and crimes done in the heat of the moment, and how they are clearly distinguished in law. The rest is all your subjective drivel, I won't bother to respond to that. You seem to think that we should take your view of events, probably lifted off a typical pretentious F1 news site seriously.

4) He was never good (at least since the Benetton days) at being in the middle of the pack.

bulls##t

Interlagos amazing recovery from the back was possible largely because 80% of the cars he passed moved swiftly of the way to avoid any controversy.

That is about the lamest argument, even his most avid critics have acknowledged the drive as his best ever. You have the best overtaker on the grid, some people just don't have the will to resist by risking their own race, they will never be champions.

Against the only 3 that tried to fight him he almost lost his car (Fisi, Kubica and Kimi).

Almost is the key point, if you don't, you're not trying hard enough.

In that respect, I find it much better the recovery of Button (a guy I like even less than MS) which had to fight his way up.

Button would barely have made the point in Michael's position..

Not to mention Taku who really shined.

No he didn't. His highly incompetent teammate was faster, it was the car.

This year Alonso won because he made fewer mistakes

Again I don't know where that ridiculous notion has emerged from. Alonso made as many if not more mistakes.

4) He had "it". No matter the car, no matter the particular conditions of a race, if you are a true F1 fan (not an MS or FA or whoever fan) you will notice that some drivers have an edge that none of the other mortal drivers can achieve. MS had it, FA certainly has it, Ayrton, Fangio, G.Villeneuve had it too.

Clever attempt there to sneak Alonso into the list. Try again.

I put that as a negative characteristic only because it distorted his performance when compared with other drivers who had to fight against the opposition AND his own team.

Rubbish noone has to fight their own team, some drivers just love to pretend they do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1) He rarely made mistakes. This year Alonso won because he made fewer mistakes (leaving aside any other considerations) Schumi always gave a lesson on how to control everything: driving, tyre temperature, pit stops, strategy changes. He was the best at that, no question!

Again I don't know where that ridiculous notion has emerged from. Alonso made as many if not more mistakes.

Personally I would have to attribute this to Ferrari's uncharacteristic unreliablity in both Japan and Brazil. He had the momentum on his side and was in the lead until his championship chances went up in smoke, literally. And after the Brazilian GP I have no doubt in my mind that he would have run away with the race and the world championship in a much more spectacular way than Massa did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally I would have to attribute this to Ferrari's uncharacteristic unreliablity in both Japan and Brazil. He had the momentum on his side and was in the lead until his championship chances went up in smoke, literally. And after the Brazilian GP I have no doubt in my mind that he would have run away with the race and the world championship in a much more spectacular way than Massa did.

I absolutely agree. :thbup:

Welcome to the forum!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we all know that if MS hadnt blown up in Japan he would be Champ an 8th time, for the first time in 6 years a ferrari engin blows up and all due to overheating because of bad motor oil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally I would have to attribute this to Ferrari's uncharacteristic unreliablity in both Japan and Brazil. He had the momentum on his side and was in the lead until his championship chances went up in smoke, literally. And after the Brazilian GP I have no doubt in my mind that he would have run away with the race and the world championship in a much more spectacular way than Massa did.
I think we all know that if MS hadnt blown up in Japan he would be Champ an 8th time, for the first time in 6 years a ferrari engin blows up and all due to overheating because of bad motor oil.

The record books may only Say 7, But you will always have 8 in our hearts. Few men shall come close and none shall go further then the marks you set as the mesaure of all that come after.

It's not that simple. On the face of it, yes, Michael probably would have won the Japanese GP and possibly even the Brazilian GP with illegal team orders had his equipment survived. However, Michael would not have been in such a position were it not for the unreliability that Alonso also suffered, in Hungary and Italy. It is therefore unfair to say that Schumacher was robbed of his 8th WDC by unreliability. If you're going to go back and give Michael the benefit of reliability in determining what he deserved, why does Alonso not deserve the same consideration? You see, there is no basis to suggest that Michael deserved the WDC; he did not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's not that simple. On the face of it, yes, Michael probably would have won the Japanese GP and possibly even the Brazilian GP with illegal team orders had his equipment survived. However, Michael would not have been in such a position were it not for the unreliability that Alonso also suffered, in Hungary and Italy. It is therefore unfair to say that Schumacher was robbed of his 8th WDC by unreliability. If you're going to go back and give Michael the benefit of reliability in determining what he deserved, why does Alonso not deserve the same consideration? You see, there is no basis to suggest that Michael deserved the WDC; he did not.

First off I would like to say that I am relatively new to F1. I've been following the sport since my uncle introduced me to it in 2004. As for my comments about Michaels reliability, I posted those because, to my knowledge, his Ferrari has not had an engine failure since 2000. Now I do not know the exact stats but I would be willing to bet that Renault record shadows in comparison.

As for the Brazilian GP, the unreliability i was speaking of was in Q3 when his fuel pump went out. After setting an all out lap record and being .3 seconds quicker than Massa he had a very good chance of being on poll and completely running away with the race, without the use of the dreaded team orders which I see nothing wrong. They were a long standing precedent in F1 until RB let MS pass him to win and the press from outside the sport got a hold of it and twisted it way out of proportion. I remember Bob Varsha(commentator for SPEEDTV) talking recently about a driver, don't remember who, who crashed his car and the team had the #2 driver pull over and give him his car. Thats what team work is all about. Helping the best person win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
First off I would like to say that I am relatively new to F1. I've been following the sport since my uncle introduced me to it in 2004. As for my comments about Michaels reliability, I posted those because, to my knowledge, his Ferrari has not had an engine failure since 2000. Now I do not know the exact stats but I would be willing to bet that Renault record shadows in comparison.

As for the Brazilian GP, the unreliability i was speaking of was in Q3 when his fuel pump went out. After setting an all out lap record and being .3 seconds quicker than Massa he had a very good chance of being on poll and completely running away with the race, without the use of the dreaded team orders which I see nothing wrong. They were a long standing precedent in F1 until RB let MS pass him to win and the press from outside the sport got a hold of it and twisted it way out of proportion. I remember Bob Varsha(commentator for SPEEDTV) talking recently about a driver, don't remember who, who crashed his car and the team had the #2 driver pull over and give him his car. Thats what team work is all about. Helping the best person win.

Sorry, welcome to the forum :)

Now, as to your post - I know precisely which unreliability you were referring to in the previous but it does not make any difference. Neither does the relatively reliability or unreliability of the Renault versus the Ferrari over the past couple years...

You see, mechanical failure is a part of Formula 1 as indeed it is a part of all autoracing that I know of but setting that aside for the moment, my point is simply that if you wish to adjust for reliability in answering question of who deserved what, you must do so on an equal basis to get an unbiased result. If you want to say that Michael would have won in Brazil and Japan if not for unreliability, please also make a similar allowance for Alonso in Hungary and Italy. That is all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry, welcome to the forum :)

Now, as to your post - I know precisely which unreliability you were referring to in the previous but it does not make any difference. Neither does the relatively reliability or unreliability of the Renault versus the Ferrari over the past couple years...

You see, mechanical failure is a part of Formula 1 as indeed it is a part of all autoracing that I know of but setting that aside for the moment, my point is simply that if you wish to adjust for reliability in answering question of who deserved what, you must do so on an equal basis to get an unbiased result. If you want to say that Michael would have won in Brazil and Japan if not for unreliability, please also make a similar allowance for Alonso in Hungary and Italy. That is all.

Agree 100% with your appreciation, Bajo. Also, Dribbler's post left me thinking that we could work on some simple guidelines for comparing drivers trying to diminish biasing as much as possible (I know it can't be totally eliminated) As a matter of fact, I watched the Interlagos Grand Prix once again and i was amazed at how distorted my recall of MS performance was. I did not recall the true fight he posed to make his way up to 4th. I recalled his mistakes, though. Memory is a tricky thing. It is not enough to make me switch from FA to MS, mind you :P but still...

Cavallino, you deserve a longer reply, sorry. But I am still trying to find where I said my approach was "objective". I am an Alonso fan!!!! Biased as it was, was more moderate than yours, I am sorry to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...